Shock and awed

“WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pentagon officials have confirmed that two Apache helicopter pilots whose craft went down in Iraq have been taken prisoner.

U.S. Apache attack helicopters had been involved in a fierce battle with units of Iraq's Republican Guard units early Monday about 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of Baghdad.

The Pentagon identified the two, who were shown on video on Abu Dhabi TV, as David S. Williams of Florida and Ronald D. Young, Jr., of Georgia, both chief warrant officers.

The U.S. military destroyed the helicopter later in an airstrike so the Iraqis could not gain from it, the Pentagon said.

snip

The pilots appeared to be in good condition.

The video also showed several identification and credit cards, apparently belonging to the men, including a card for a bank on a military base in the United States where Apache helicopters are based.

CNN's Karl Penhaul, who was with the regiment involved in the attack, said the helicopters encountered a "heavy, heavy barrage" of anti-aircraft fire in the battle.

He could not immediately say whether all of the U.S. helicopters returned safely to their base at an airfield in northern Kuwait.

Most pilots said they were unable to achieve the objectives of the mission -- to hit the Republican Guard armored brigade, knock out its tanks and pierce its artillery. They spent a few hours in the air defending themselves and trying to get out of the area.

The attack force did not expect such strong resistance from what they thought were mostly civilian areas, Penhaul reported.

He added that pilots were "somewhat dazed, somewhat stunned" by the level of Iraqi resistance they encountered.

snip

Bush underestimated Iraq, or deceived the American public.”

“DAMASCUS, Syria (CNN) -- Five Syrians have died in a U.S. missile strike on a bridge in northwestern Iraq.

Syrian officials said the dead were among 37 passengers on a bus about 100 miles south of the Iraq-Syrian border, which was hit by a U.S. missile Monday. At least 15 passengers were reported injured.

At the Pentagon, Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal said the raid's intended target was a bridge, and that the bus came into view only after a bomb had been released.

"Unintended casualties like this are regrettable," McChrystal said. "We extend our sympathies to the families of those civilians who were accidentally killed."

The bus, filled with passengers trying to flee Iraq and the war, was about 140 kilometers from the Iraq-Syrian border when it was hit.

"This is a pure act of savagery, an outrageous and unjustifiable attack on innocent civilians," said a Syrian government official.

The Syrian government also told CNN that there were no "justifiable targets" in the area where the bus was hit.

The dead and the injured have been taken to Syria.

More "shock and awe," Bush?”

“What I heard was that Iraqi informers "misled" their US intelligence contacts.”

“Meaning what stumprider? That the bus was enemy? Wasn't anything learned in Afghanistan from this same kind of intelligence?”

“The strike was on a bridge and the Syrian government official says there were no legitimate targets there?

I'd have to say that Gen. Stanley McChrystal has more credibility with me than does this Syrian official.”

“I've been wondering.....who was it that first used that newest of terms, Shock and Awe? Wasn't it the media? Seems to me they are the ones out there repeatedly parroting that phrase.

Did the military ever say that no helicopters or planes would be shot down? It does happen in war.
Seems to me that I read a while back that the military didn't want this fight, but they are doing their duty. Blame Bush, I sure do, but how about later? Right now those guys and gals need your support, not back-seat driving.”

“I think I heard it used by a gv't briefer "Shock and Awe" - but I'm not sure who ratcheted up the volume on that slogan.

I basically agree with Jo that the military seems to be doing a darned good job with a war that they did not want, on terms dictated by civilian higher-ups - adjusting rapidly to the inability to launch ground forces from Turkey.

I do think that the time for Bush bashing is now. The jerk is using the public's admirable patriotic urge to rally around the Flag in times of war to push a pretty extreme agenda - including ridiculous tax cuts at time where the budget is already at record deficit levels. The pressure has been on for people to vote for things they don't support, because it would hurt the country to have the president defeated in congress at a time of crisis.

But, Bush bashing ain't the same as bashing the military. The dust needs to settle before the second guessing of the performance of the military. In any war, mistakes are made and there are lessons to be learned. Every side tries to outguess and outwit the enemy - of course some Iraqi units will pull something off at some point, but that is not necessarily a reason to bash anyone in the rank and file of the military.”

“I agree with you pedxing. After this war, I beleive that Bush will be raked over the coals and be a one-termer like his daddy.

Militarily..........they interviewed some woman on the streets last night , asking her opinion about the blackhawk copter being shot down. She said that obviously someone wasn't doing their job. What!!!!????? Obviously, some bullets or rocket hit the copter, nothing more. What a dim wit. Why does her opinion get asked or matter?”

“ped and Jo -- very well put.”

“The guy who shot it down was doing HIS job.

A good book on war is "Still Time To Die" by Jack Belden, 1943.
He was a war correspondent in China, Burma, North Africa, Sicily, and (wounded at) Salerno.
Jack had a few unkind things to say about backseat-drivers, rear echelon twinkies, and stateside criticism of military performance in the field.”

“Looks like a good book to ebb the annoyances of nitwits like Alaska.”

“Does anyone else think it is strange that our media and Military officials are calling the Iraqis' battle techiniques "terrorism"? If you ask me it is just fighting back against invaders in their country.
Is launching thousands of missiles and dropping tons of bombs in Iraq not terrorism as well, then?”

“17.00 - "Wheel of Terror"

17.30 - "Talitubbies" - Dipsy and Tinky-Winky make nerve-gas.

18.00 - FILM: "Saddam's Angels" - The three burkha-clad sleuths go undercover to expose an evil scheme to bring democracy and free speech to Iraq

19.30 - "Big Brother" - Who will be taken to Baghdad and executed this week?

20.30 - "Xena: Modestly Dressed Housewife" - Xena stays at home in a mask and does some housework.

21.30 - "Buffy the Yankee Imperialist Dog Slayer".

22.30 - "The Sky At Night" - What to see in the Iraqi night sky during March: including B52 Bombers, Stealth Fighters and Cruise Missiles”

“lmao @ Ynami”

“Punk: I do think that "terrorism" is used too loosely - and starts to loose its meaning but some of the things Sadam's people seem to be doing: shooting their own civilians, sending civilians out in front of Iraqi troops while they are shooting, shooting troops in the back while they are trying to surrender is disgusting stuff and way beyond goes way beyond anything justifiable as fighting off invaders.”

“I was wondering about "shock and awe" too. I'm media, mind you, just dinky local weekly newspaper media. I think "shock and awe" is about the stupidest thing down the pike lately. Am FIGURING it was our gov. NOT journalists that came up with this. If journalists are still using it, I have a hunch it's because no one was "shocked and awed" (unless it was US). Use words such as these and they may come back to haunt you... err, may get used in news stories forever, and make whomever first termed "shock and awe" regret the day the words fell out of his mouth.

Oh, but let's c'mon and have more PR terms for various facets of the war. Everyone watching it on TV just thinks it's a big video game anyway, right?”

“errrrrrr, thanks (??) Violin, am not quite sure what that's saying. Is it saying that the journalists are stupid?

I'm saying, if journalists are still using "shock and awe," it's more like an inside joke becuase it just hasn't happened.

Remember Don Henley's tune, "Dirty Laundry."

"... is the head dead yet? The people in the newsroom got a running bet...."

News people may have nasty senses of humor due to what they've seen, heard and dealt with..... I don't think journalists are being dolts when they use "shock and awe" (wink, wink)

(ok, now Violin will tell me I read that joke wrong..... lol)”

“Shock and Awe is a great term, you'll be seeing it for many years to come in sports headlines and such :o)”

“Introducing ... the Shock and Awe Channel, all shock and awe all the time!”

“Cool.......Violin thought of a way to get "mother#&%!$er" on TT!”

“Like most journalists, lizs doesn't get it.”

“Pardon my French Freedom.”

“Back to work, bacpac... lunch is over. ;-)”

“Yeah, that lazy turd!”

“The origin of the term "shock and awe".”

“Aw come on lizs....yes the military thought it up but the media is riding that horse to death to pump up ratings. Jouralists stupid? Heck no....it's a business not a vocation. That was funny. The military is between a rock and a hard place. Nice job violin....how do you come up with all this stuff?”

“He's not lazy Tom”

“In a war the defenders (the Iraqis) and the attackers (the coalition) are obligated to use whatever means neccessary to achieve whatever each determines to be their goals.
If the nation of Iraq chooses to feign surrender or use soldiers dressed as civilians in order to gain advantage then so be it. British and American soldiers will be at task to determine who to kill and who not to kill. People on both sides will be killed and captured, hopefully not to many of either.
War is hell.”

“I understand your point except that those are things are prohibited by the Geneva Convention, which Iraq did in fact sign (not that anyone would expect that to deter them from doing what ever they want).”

“No tahoe: I think it is important that the world agreed to conisider certain things unfair, even in war. The Geneva convention suggests that the end does not justify all means.

Besides, the Iraqis seem to be doing things worse than faking surrender and pretending to be civilians.”

“VC2 - What happened at Guantanamo Bay? - maybe Saddam has decided to term them Enemy Combatants instead of POWs”

“I might add that, international war crimes trials will be appropriate for the Iraqis who have deliberately shot civilians.

I think the war was a dumba$$ move and wrong. Bu$h did a terrible job of coalition building - partly because he made it clear from the start that he wanted other countries to do his will - he wasn't ready for any real dialogue or negotiation. Nonetheless - I see no moral equivalence between Hussein and Bush, between the actions of the US troops and those of Iraqi troops. The US has gone out of its way to reduce civilian casualties, Hussein's guys have deliberately targeted them and hid behind them.”

“Yeah, and as I mentioned in another thread, the hundreds of Taliban that we broiled to death in cargo containers that had no air holes in them.”

“"we broiled"? Did we put them in the cargo container?”

“Yup.”

“Cool! Do you have link?”

“http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/pows-d13_prn.shtml

http://www.e-ariana.com/ariana/eariana.nsf/allArticles/EEF5AB2048A9B62E87256C2A005CFA04?OpenDocument

Couldn't find the newsweek article on-line.”

“here it is

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.21A.death.convoy.p.htm”

“Yep, those are unbiased, factual, news reports alright.”

“Okay, I read your Newsweek link. First of all, they were baked and not broiled, so let's get that straight. Also, the article implicates the Northern Alliance as the group responsible, not the US.”

“there's also a story on CNN. I don't think there is a suggestion that Americans knew about the 'baking' at the time.”

“What the article does is raises questions about US involvement and since no administration officials would go on the record about it, I guess they were left for the reader to answer.

Made my decision on this one a while back...”

“Yeah, but if something terrible happens it surley must be the Bush administration's fault. I mean that's obvious.”

“Thanks rosey. Now you've got me agreeing with Savage. Our forces were not implicated, only our proxies.”

“Then how come the administration wouldn't go on the record defending themselves?”

“What's the point? You wouldn't believe them.”

“Oh man, what strange times we live in.
First Violin vaguely agrees with me, the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black dude and there is war that Germany won't fight in.”

“Lesseeee, Liz.

You're from IA, right?

Imagine, if you will, a tornado. Not just any tornado, mind you, but a special tornado. This special tornado crosses the bean field just like any other, k? But when it reaches the little picket fence that seperates the beans from the fescue, it stops.

It stays. I stands there unleashing it's fury for thirty solid minutes.

Imagine that. The sound... the vibration. Unceasing for only a half-hour, but to everyone's shock and awe, it seems like an eternity.

Then again, for perhaps thousands of people, it was an eternity...



The Taliban qualifieth not for Geneva Convention stuff. They were not even in uniform.”

“the whole idea of the Geneva Convention is that states don't get to decide who qualifies and who doesn't. The US has to live by the standards it expects the rest of the world to conform to.”