Pres. Bush was right

“Didn't she play the Stay-Puft marshmallow man in "GhostBusters?"”

“I just hope Bush completes this project in a way that makes the effort noble. He could find a way to rid the country of the huge infrastructure of thugs and political enforcers that SH set up. He could set up a stable government structure, and thereby help the Iraqi people achieve a level of prosperity they've never known. He could let the Iraqi's negotiate deals for their oil, and then get out. If he does that, the war will have been a pretty noble effort. We will gain in reputation by showing the Arab world that we didn't steal their oil, and we saved the Iraqi people from a Nazi-like dictatorship. And, the whackos in the region will have one less source of funding and state support, as well as one less center for recruits.

However, if Bush cuts a bunch of insider deals with his and Chaney's oil buddies, and doesn't get out of the country when he should, then it starts to look sleezy. I hope he does it right, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that his intentions are noble.”

“She's the "Mother Of All Bombshells".”

“or the "Mother of All Butts"”

“This is totally Un-PC and I may catch heck for it, but I'm sick of invoking 9/11 like an incantation explains and justifies all kinds of things.... as if it is both sword and sheild. The "not in our name" movement of friends and families of victims of 9/11 and survicors has impressed me - in their willingness to speak out over how their loss and tragedy have been misused.

9/11 was awful - it still boggles my mind, but lots of countries in the world have gone through things that are far worse, in terms of violence, malevolence and loss of life. How often do I hear American's say "this country went through an extreme trauma with X - so that justifes their taking all kinds of military action." I think much of the world - who were incredibly sympathetic and supportive after 9/11 - are a bit appalled at the most powerful nation in the world explecting everyone to cater to them because of their vulnerabilities.

Violins links were useful in showing clearing how the war against Iraq was being pushed long before 9/11 - but it is true that 9/11 won over a lot of skeptics to the side of the Iraq hawks.

I fear Mubarak is right - there may be many more Bin Ladens and Bin Laden wannabees after the war than there were on 9/12/01.”

“but lots of countries in the world have gone through things that are far worse, in terms of violence, malevolence and loss of life.

We just happen to be lucky enought to be able to do something about it. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Don't you think those "lots of countries" (and this is an awckward generalization) wouldn't do whatever it took to eliminate the threat if they possessed the power? Jesus H Crisco. Regardless of your position on the war on Iraq, one of the reasons terrorists have targeted the U.S. is because we're perceived as a Paper Tiger. That we can't stomach warfare unless we're 30,000 feet above ground. I have my doubts about the timing regarding Iraq (in fact, I think it was a mistake not to pursue other more pressing issues first), but I have no doubt that a decisive show of force in Iraq will send an unequivical message to the fabled Arab Street: The U.S. is not a country you can attack and expect to survive or make a dent on. Anti-American sentiment may indeed reach fever-pitch due to the Iraq war, but the Arab Street has learned a powerful lesson from their secular governments: Resistance is useless against overwhelming power. Thus, the link between the war in Iraq and a "1000 bin ladens" is specious. Sure it makes sense in an emotinal sense, but not a practical sense. The morality of this war may legitimately be questioned, but the utility of it is quite justified.”

“Mutt: I've heard the same argument for years about the value of the Israeli iron fist - and terrorism has proliferated. Intimidation can only you get you so far - especially against people who are willing to die fighting against what they perceive as evil.

Attacking Iraq, of course, is one step beyond doing something about it. If the US had to prove they couldn't be victimized for 9/11 with impunity and that nations that harbored people who did such things couldn't be attacked with impunity - the invasion of Afghanistan was about that. If they needed an examplar of democracy restored after a US invasion - a shining beacon for the Islamic world, Aghanistan was our chance. Very few people doubted the legitimacy of the Afghan invasion.”

“I've heard the same argument for years about the value of the Israeli iron fist - and terrorism has proliferated

Oh holy cow. Israel has not been able to use an "iron fist". The UN and the US have prevented them from using decisive measures to eradicate the threat. If Hamas et al stopped their terrorist tactics, Israel would stand down immediately. If given the chance after decades of senseless slaughter of Israeli innocents, Israel would put a swift, firm end to the problem, just as the U.S. is doing now in Iraq.

the invasion of Afghanistan was about that...Aghanistan was our chance

Afghanistan was definitely a signal of American resolve, but you extend your argument beyond the reality of the theatre. Afghanistan is, in terms of world importance, a fly on an a$s's butt - even in the Arab world. The U.S. scored no brilliant victory (as the Taliban chose a strategic retreat rather than fight for the cities), and the chances to set up a shining beacon of democracy were hopelessly outgunned by hundreds of years of ethnic strife. By contrast, Iraq comprises a comparitively modern, secular, and educated people. Iraq has a believable army which must be subjugated before they capitulate. Iraq is the country which the U.S. can show real resolve through credible personal expense to prove its willingness to combat the ill-deserved perception of weakness it found itself encumbred with during the Clinton years.

Iraq is the nexus of the Arab world right now, and America has chosen, wisely, to defeat it. Remember, Saddam's regime is not legitimate. Cruel despots never can claim legitimacy.

Ask yourself - if 9/11 was personal for you (in that you lost family) - would you accept the hollow victory of Afghanistan as a suitable response? I know I wouldn't.”

“Mutt I don't think that democracy will rain supreme in Iraq. You have the Kurds in the north who want their own country and I doubt will ever accept being a part of a new Iraq. Turkey will never allow an independent Kurdish nation (Think of the disaster that's brewing there). You have a large population of people who are more aligned with a fundamentalist Iran then a secular Iraq. I wonder if the allegiance of these very different people will be more towards their own kind and their own wants then to a unified Iraq. I don't believe their sense of country is as strong as their sense of self. It's kind of like what happened in this country when the south split from the union, their own small world was more important then the nation.”

“Support Peace!!!
Or I'll kill this Dog!!!
”

“But, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - or do we need to sacrifice scapegoats on that altar?”

“9/11's message is simple.Armies are old hat.Civilians will from now on become more and more the media of war.The fact that US military #&%!$es about the rules of war not being followed-Haha-welcome to the world where the amount of bombs and planes is a waste of time and money.”

“She's looking at you saying "come here you big scud stud"”

“"If Hamas et al stopped their terrorist tactics, Israel would stand down immediately."

This is not true at all. I spent some time in Israel, followed events closely and met some Likud leaders. They won't be happy until there are no Palestinians in the West Bank.

In fact... Israel fed the growth of Hamas in order to weaken Arafat and the PLO.”

“Bazook -
I distinctly remember that Natl Lampoon cover - circa '77(?). Ya darn tootin' I bought it!

Their caption read:
"Buy This Magazine, or I'll Shoot This Dog"
heeee!”

“This is not true at all. I spent some time in Israel, followed events closely and met some Likud leaders. They won't be happy until there are no Palestinians in the West Bank.

Oh please. Of course there's factions with that mindset, but Israel happens to be a democracy. There's no chance the extremists will get their way (unless the palestinians continue to goad Israel by killing innocents). Israel wants peace. The punctuated periods of relative peace are always shattered by the terrorists, and then Israel responds. To argue moral equivalency between the palestinians and Israelis is absolutely disgusting, from an American point of view.”

“But, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - or do we need to sacrifice scapegoats on that altar?

9/11 was a terrorist strike. Invading Iraq will strengthen our hand considerably against terrorism. If you refuse to acknowledge this very basic and simple fact, then I don't think you're being intellectually honest.”

“must hike, those are good points. Iraqis will be responsible for their choice of government after the war. Democracy may not be their first choice. But the U.S. will be in Iraq for quite awhile, and we'll accomplish our objectives during that time.”

“It seems to me that invading Iraq will strengthen our hand against terrorism a little more that invading Lebanon strengthened Israel's hand against terrorism. On the other hand, Israel's invasion of Lebanon greatly strengthened the hand of terrorists and without it we would never have had the bombing of the Marine barracks.”

“The US doesn't have the constraints the Israelis have.”

“"...from an American point of view."

Excuse us, O Keeper Of The Flame, LOL

Let's simply steamroll the entire planet if they talk back to us. Just because world domination through force has always failed in the long term before, it doesn't mean We can't administer it correctly... After all, OUR hearts are in the right place, no?

[this megalomania is not very flattering on you]

You Do have some idea why Perle is referred to as the Prince of Darkness, I'm guessing?”

“The US will run into constraints. The fact that the US seems to feel it has no constraints is and will be a major motivator for terrorism and anti-americanism.

Remember Vietnam?”

“Let's simply steamroll the entire planet if they talk back to us.

When did I advocate this? Please post a cite. Of course you won't be able to.

The ME is the center of the terrorist world. We're invading Iraq to gain leverage in the region, so we can better fight terrorism. How is that world domination? Your statement is pure hyperbole, borderline hystrionics.

this megalomania is not very flattering on you

I assume this is in response to "from an American point of view." I'm not indulging in megalomania. The US was the victim of 9/11. We're having a hell of a time fighting terrorism. So, from an American point of view, arguing for a moral equation between Israel - a secular democracy - and the palistians - terrorists - is disgusting.”

“The US will run into constraints.

Of course the US will run into constraints - we already have. But we don't have nearly the same constraints as Israel (namely, a hypocritical sponsor country)

The fact that the US seems to feel it has no constraints is and will be a major motivator for terrorism and anti-americanism

Just so. Historically, a hegemonic power gives rise to a counter-balance. But that counter-balance has been in the form of nation-states, not terrorism. So there's no historical precedent for your scenario. If you eliminate funding to terrorists and safe geographic bases, then the terrorists will wilt on the vine. That is, the kind capable of 9/11 scale operations.”

“... in your Humble opinion? LOL

Sorry. Arafat was a fool not to take the deal he was offered at Camp David in the waning days of the Clinton admistration, but now the Isrealis have overplayed their hand. They lost me when they began firing rockets into residential neighborhoods. I suspect Sharon is mad.

Bush taking carte blanche with both domestic and foreign policy using terrorism as an excuse will have the same result, I fear.

The application of more and more force is simply not a panacea.

Is it a control issue?”

“now the Isrealis have overplayed their hand. They lost me when they began firing rockets into residential neighborhoods.

You know, it's a funny thing. Whenever Israel cracks down the terrorists, there's almost never a terrorist strike during their operations. Overplaying their hand? No.”

“Sharon is mad, and in my view needs to be tried as a war criminal - if he is aquitted then that's fine, but I think there are questions about his military and political career that need to be answered. Whatever he has done and whereever he has gone the smell of death follows him. I'm not saying Arafat is any better, but while the two of them are in control then there's little hope of peace. Sharon came to power after provoking trouble by his visit to the temple mount. He has used any break in fighting to go on the offensive and is speeding up the settlement of the West Bank.”

“Hey Mutt,
Are there other names you sign-on under?
Just wondering.”

“I'm happy to see their methods are working so well. And such speedy results, too...”

“Are there other names you sign-on under?

Nope. Why?”

“I'm happy to see their methods are working so well. And such speedy results, too...

They would be successful if they were allowed to do what was necessary.”

“How many deaths do you think it would take... ballpark?”

“...just wondering. Not accusing you of trolling, though I thought your timbre "sounded familiar."”

“How's anyone to know that, Tilt?”

“Oh, you don't have a figure in mind... just 'more'.”

“You could look at history and see what percentage of a population has to be killed before the rest is sufficiently cowed. If there were no alternatives to brute force, that might be justifiable.”

“If the palestinians just stopped attacking Israelis, there wouldn't have to be another life lost.”

“You know it's not really that simple, don't you?”

“In terms of life being lost, sure it's that simple. Then negotiations could begin and a compromise reached. But as we saw, the palestinians rejected a deal that gave them at least 90% of what they wanted, and they didn't even bargain in good faith. They want conflict. They don't care about statehood - they want to drive the Jews into the sea.

If only palestinians would have chosen co-existence. They would have been among the richest, most educated, and freest arabs in the ME (like Israeli arabs).”

“And the Palestinian terrorists say the same thing... That they just need to kill more Israelis...

It's monstrous.


But isn't it nice that the murderers on both sides have something they can agree on? Perhaps they will only be satisfied if they can wipe each other off the map completely.”

“Generations of violence have left both societies in the grips of extremist ideologues. Do we want to follow that example?”

“I think the question is whether the issue of a Palestinian state would even be on the table were it not for the violence?”

“When has a similar cycle of violence ever been short-circuited by applying more?”

“the murderers on both sides

There you go again with more of that disgusting moral relativism. Israelis, as a policy, try not to kill civilians, and often incur Israeli soldier casualties in order to minimize palestinian civilian casualties, as in Jenin, for example. The PLO deliberately target virtually no one but Israeli civilians, and always in as atrocious a manner as possible.

It should be crystal clear to every reasonable person by now that Israel a) is 100x more civilized than their adversaries, b) as a rule tries not to target civilians, while their enemies do nothing but, c) has been goaded by endless atrocity beyond anything we can relate to, and d) would stop military action against the palestinians literally overnight if the PLO would simply stand down.

To be fair, Israel is flawed and sometimes does bad things, but they are a basically good and tolerant secular democracy, and as such are head and shoulders above anything else in that region.

What you are doing is engaging in squalid moral equivalence that says that a country that is good as a rule but does occasional wrong is EXACTLY THE SAME as a terrorist police state. Pathetic.”

“The methods of the Palestinian people are wrong, but the way they are treated now is just as bad.

Imagine the orginal plan for the Bay of Pigs invasion had gone ahead, but then the Soviet Union came to Cuba's aid, forcing America out of Cuba, taking Florida and maybe a few other states. Although America stated the war, 35-years later the Russians are still there in the south, controlling nearly every aspect of the lives of the Americans living there. Russian troops guard the streets, Americans living there can't travel to nearby towns or go to college without permission and Communitst families from other parts of the world are being moved into parts of the area to start settlements. Helicopter gunships fly overhead occasionally firing rockets into towns to quell any unrest. T-72 tanks sit on the street corners - What actions could the Americans living there take - or should they just live with this situation in the hope that one day the Soviet regime will give them some of the land back?”

“What actions could the Americans living there take

They should denounce terrorism and bargain on the Russki's deal that gave them at least 90% of what they claimed they wanted.”

“oooooooooh, the Dreaded Moral Relativism. I don't see any White Hats and Black Hats in this fight, Old Bean. There is evil on both sides as well as good. I think Israel is slipping in the PR war. You know why.”

“Moral relativism is a tricky thing, but when you equate Israel and Palestinians as murderers, you cross the line of credibility.

By the way, something like 75% of palestinians support the terrorists' tactics of murdering innocents in horrendous ways. There seems to be a lot more 'bad' on the side of the Palestinians, eh?”

“Sorry, time's up. Nice try. Putting more violence INTO a system and expecting LESS to come out is insane. I don't know what else to tell you.

But I will take take 'pathetic' over 'bloodthirsty'... any day of the year. Nolo contendre.

Ta.”

“Israelis are not murderers. Sharon is a murderer.”