Violin, Mutt Tilt and Liberals Everywher e

“he had a sign in his yard that said

"beware of god"”

“t's an allegory. go back in the thread and read the post with the stephen hawking story, about "turtles all the way down - cb

- I will tonight. It sounds familiar.

a collection of books that are part fiction, part poetry, part instructional, part historical, and part propaganda

- not fiction

how many of these prophecies that jesus supposedly fulfilled have actually been verified outside of scripture? be specific

As you just implied, even if inadvertently, there are elements of the bible to be taken on educated faith, and others are historically provable. Most historic elements have been proven by archeologists, with more & more all the time, probably more so than much of the present day media accounts of CURRENT events.”

“I have, on the other hand, seen evidence of the God identified in the bible

LOL”
Mutt

- I have also seen evidence of the devil.”

“Wrong again, Scoopy.”

“Tilt is so cute when he has an opinion.”

“sarge, what part of "be specific" do you not understand?

how many prophecies has jesus fulfilled?

heck, i wont even ask you to be specific anymore. just ballpark it

which ones? which ones can be verified outside of hebrew or christian scripture (non-canon books dont count, theyre still scripture) and how do we know that THOSE sources arent biased, or have nothing to gain by supporting christian claims?

any outside evidence of the resurrection? not just a missing body, or some strange dude walking around?

even if you can overcome all of that, there is still the incontrovertible fact that all of this is events from 2000 years ago. whoever is writing stuff down is a product of a very superstitious and unsophisticated era (despite any technological or cultural advances that might have been made) in a time of religious turmoil. people were desperate for a messiah, someone to lead the way. i think someones been cookin the books”

“besides, it's obvious the resurrection was photoshopped. the shadows are all wrong, and it's just like the scene from "never back down" where jake emerges from a tomb and ascends into heaven, while baja and max look on”

“sarge, what part of "be specific" do you not understand?

- Didn't you read my answer? I'll post the relevant part again...

As you just implied, even if inadvertently, there are elements of the bible to be taken on educated faith, and others are historically provable.

I can't prove that Jesus rebuilt the temple in 3 days, as prophesied, any more than you can prove to me the Egyptians used slave labor. Especially since "building the temple" not only meant His resurrection, but also implies He will, in the future, rule His kingdom here on earth, as it is in Heaven.

Nevertheless, the historical aspects are proven all the time. Plus, virtually nobody disputes that Jesus existed and quarreled with the church & the government. People of that time apparently did not dispute the widely reported events of Jesus' life, neither at the time (by denying He made claims), nor in the following decades following when the texts were written & preached.”

“and others are historically provable... the historical aspects are proven all the time

again, which ones?

virtually nobody disputes that Jesus existed and quarreled with the church & the government.

so what? acknowledging that he simply existed, and acknowledging he performed miracles, ascended into heaven, and is the Son of God are separated by a gulf as wide as the ocean

People of that time apparently did not dispute the widely reported events of Jesus' life, neither at the time (by denying He made claims), nor in the following decades following when the texts were written & preached.�

we dont know that. and even if everyone WAS on board, that still doesnt prove anything. people are gullible”

“i know you know this but this is hardly the place to seek those types of answers crash”

“again, which ones?

- Are you kidding? Which historical events haven't been proven. Most all have. Do you realky want a list? Just look up a king or political event and see. crash, even atheists generally don't dispute this.

.... are separated by a gulf as wide as the ocean

- As I've indicated.

we dont know that. and even if everyone WAS on board, that still doesnt prove anything. people are gullible

- You can argue that for any historical event. And yes, we do know that because we know Jesus was executed for His SUCCESS at spreading His message.”

“fine. keep evading. i give up”

“I haven't evaded. What I can't possibly answer, I've told you why. Do you want me to read history books to you?”

“See, religion is the new politics.”

“I thought politics were the new religion.”

“relitics is the new poligion.”

“The evolution of history and religion is outpacing you Darwin Award candidates on this Palin-Biden showdown.”

“Politics is required, religion is optional.”

“ I have also seen evidence of the devil - Sarge

No, I can safely say you've seen ZERO empirical evidence of your fictional anthropomorphic deity or its arch nemesis.”

“ Do you want me to read history books to you?�

youre making the claim. i'd like you to back it up.

give me 3 solid, substantiated outside of jewish and christian scripture, verifications of prophecies fulfilled by the person known as jesus of nazareth.”

“

Ooooo! Oooooo! Mr. Carter! Mr. Carter!

None.”

“nigal claims zero.

so the question to you, nigal, what prophecies are the christians pointing to as being fulfilled by outside sources, and why do you refute them?”

“crash, stop being an ass. Like I said several times, prophesies didn't make it into the history books of the government which considered them a threat. Use some sense.”

“First you must explain what a prophecy outside of the bible is and how there can even be such a thing. I was under the impression you were looking for prophecies Jesus made that were fulfilled.

There are bunches of prophecies from the Jewish scriptures that Jesus did not fulfill and could not fulfill.”

“Ironically, it's you who keep making the point that the bible is a collection of writings from various authors.

I am getting the feeling you will only accept authors who don't verify fulfilled prophesy.”

“The Jews don't believe He fulfilled the messiah (King) prophesy, an obvious one He did fulfill, so it may stand to reason they aren't open to interpreting many others.”

“so, there are no unbiased sources that will back you up when you say that jesus fulfilled the prophecies? all we have is the old testament saying "x event will happen, and the new testament saying x event happened"?

i'm not being an ass, as you so hatefully claimed. im trying to understand why you believe jesus is the messiah”

“sorry, icky ma, but i scooped ya a week ago”

“biased? People who died torturous deaths for a man they didn't know UNTIL they saw Him perform miracles, are biased? LOL ... wow!

If you want to know why I believe Jesus is the Messiah then stop asking me to give you a New York Times article that purports George Bush was a good man as evidence that he was.”

“No problem Crash... ;)”

“classic, crash asks surge to back up something he said and surge calls him an ass LOL

crash, do you go on religious websites for advise about backpacking?”

“as you said crash, the ot & the nt are COLLECTIONS of writins, some historical in nature. Just because they weren't stamped with approval by Csesar saying "we've confirmed, Jesus is in fact Lord", doesn't mean others did't confirm it - people with NOTHING to gain from oying. I'm sorry a person w financial interests didn't approve those documents, including actual letters to large churches, for you.”

“so you either believe the bible, or you dont

too much of it sounds like magical fairy time, so i dont believe it

i think the biggest problem that i have with christianity, theologically speaking, is this need for an intermediary, this god-man, as well as the need for a savior. i believe that i can have a relationship with god (if there is one) and go to heaven (if there is one) without a middle man. catholics make it even worse by adding a second intermediary

i could compromise with the Universalist view: yes, christ is the savior, not just for those who believe he is the savior, but for everyone”

“thriftyhiker, you are gay, and it's wrong.”

“salvation, the resurrection, and the prophecies fulfilled are HUGE hurdles to jump in the credibility department, and they are the key elements of christian faith.

so the evidence for also has to overwhelming. you raise a good point about the bible being a collection of books by different authors. but they are not just a random collection of books. they are the books that were selected to be canonized because they more or less conveyed the message that the early christians wanted conveyed

so far, i'm underwhelmed. im sorry if that upsets you
last edited: 11/12/08 7:25:52 AM”

““salvation, the resurrection, and the prophecies fulfilled are HUGE hurdles to jump in the credibility department, and they are the key elements of christian faith.

- faith, yes, faith. The writings are not written in a manner designed to convince anybody. They are written for people, at the time, who already believed. They require faith, and there is good reason for that.

so the evidence for also has to overwhelming. you raise a good point about the bible being a collection of books by different authors. but they are not just a random collection of books. they are the books that were selected to be canonized because they more or less conveyed the message that the early christians wanted conveyed

- Do you hear yourself? All these people collected writings together to pserve history, but these scholars are not credible because they did this. Instead, you would prefer if somebody else, some other king or scholar, had done this, then it would be credible. Right. Got it.

so far, i'm underwhelmed. im sorry if that upsets you

- It does not. God is in control.”

“On the flip side Crash I don't understand string theory and it sounds like incredible fantasy to me. My not understanding something doesn't make it invalid, does it? Not tryin' to make the case 4 christ, just sayin'.”

“All these people collected writings together to pserve history

that's just it. we dont really know if they were preserving history, telling nice stories, or making propaganda”

“The First Council of Nicaea was held in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325 AD, was the first Ecumenical council[1] of the Christian Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops' (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arian controversy comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250–318 attendees, all but two voted against Arius[2]).

Another result of the council was an agreement on when to celebrate the Resurrection, the most important feast of the ecclesiastical calendar. The council decided in favour of celebrating the resurrection on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox, independently of the Hebrew Calendar (see also Quartodecimanism and Easter controversy). It authorized the Bishop of Alexandria (presumably using the Alexandrian calendar) to announce annually the exact date to his fellow bishops.

The Council of Nicaea was historically significant because it was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[3] "It was the first occasion for the development of technical Christology."[3] A precedent was set for subsequent general councils to adopt creeds and canons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

_______________________________________-

Note: There was no One Christianity before this... and they didn't hold this council until 325 years AFTER Jesus died...

The US hasn't even existed that long, yet...

I can only imagine how many writings didn't survive that long! Hell, nobody knows for sure what Elvis' favourite recipe is (2 close friends each describe the recipe differently in two separate books... And Elvis is arguably one of the most documented and recorded figures of the 20th century!)
I can only imagine how many writings and teachings were thrown in the trash... I can only imagine what "deals" were made to appease the stronger groups at that council... I can only imagine what was compromised....

Then good ol' King James came along and had the thing RE-Written again... and he forced some changes, too... You know he did... otherwise, why re-write it in the first place...

The point is: Believe the Bible at your own risk. It's a lot like believing what you hear if you're the last person in line on the childs game of Telephone... you know the one? Where one person passes the message to the next... who passes it to the next... who passes it to the next... and so on... NEVER is the final message received the same as the original message sent...”

“ My not understanding something doesn't make it invalid, does it?

good point. i dont mean to say it's invalid, but until i am convinced, i will remain unconvinced

i tried to give sarge an avenue to convince me. it didnt work. i could be like mutt and just provokingly scoff unprovoked. but i didnt, because i genuinely want to know why some people believe as they do”

“because i genuinely want to know why some people believe as they do

- Really? Then why don't you ask? So far, you've seemed to be wanting to know how I can convince you, using ridiculous rules that you've agrees upon.

that's just it. we dont really know if they were preserving history, telling nice stories, or making propaganda

- Oh, you mean like every time there is a historical document?”

“crash, my comment about religious websites was snarky but had some truth as well...when confronted about their believes people will either view that as an opportunity to promote or defend theirs...some people on here have a long history of being defensive...i appreciate and am encouraged by your quest for answers but i would recommend you go in a different direction to find them
last edited: 11/12/08 8:00:05 AM”

“thriftyhiker, on what authority do you offer that recommendation?

crash, stand down until you receive further orders. command central ... out”

“as a friend of crash who has actually met him”

“friends don't let friends discuss things with other people”

“So far, you've seemed to be wanting to know how I can convince you, using ridiculous rules that you've agrees upon.

well, youre more likely to convince me if you play by my "rules", just like someone is more likely to convince you if they play by yours. different people learn and absorb knowledge and opinions differently

Oh, you mean like every time there is a historical document?�

good point. now, about those WMD'S..........”

“crash, be my friend and I promise I won't patronize you by assuming you need to be told who you can speak with, like thriftyhiker just did.”

“youre right.

thrifty, sarge is my new BFF. youre just gonna have to go back to trawling facebook”

“well, youre more likely to convince me if you play by my "rules", just like someone is more likely to convince you if they play by yours. different people learn and absorb knowledge and opinions differently

- Let me remind you what knowledge you claim to be seeking ...

"im trying to understand why you believe jesus is the messiah"

So, you assume that I must believe this because I read it in some National Geographic article?”