Operation Iraqi Liberation...

“For the same reasons we went into Iraq, we should go into Syria. I see this situation kinda like when Patton wanted to go into Russia....”

“Unforntunatley I think the Red Army would have won that one laqtis”

“We have the tanks over there, maybe the tanks could just go to the Meditteranian via Syria, the ships could go back around and pick them up on the Syrian ports. That would save some gas, rather than have to drive back all the way to Kuwait. I think we are all in favor of saving gas, aren't we?”

“Who is our ambassador in Syria? Trot that person out here now. Wouldn't that be a tough job. Somehow, I can't envision Rumsfield waiting for ambassadors before speaking his mind. But you are right, the U.S. should let things settle a little before throwing some more weight around. It won't change things much either way and we have a lot of bad things to deal with in Iraq right now. The stories of the civilians wounded are pretty dispiriting.”

“Or maybe we could just invade every country we want and take over the world, then we would be safe... right? Lets label everyone a terrorist, anyone who fights back will be a terrorist. You have to be a coward to take your own life for your cause right? thos damn cowardly terrorist who don't want to be oppressed... The Americans are the hero's... as long as we all are fat, wealthy, and happy! STUPID #&%!$S!”

“Ynami, you are either niave or just jaded by the lies of our previous president. Ever since 9/11 Bush has been saying we were at war with terrorism and would go where ever we needed to go to fight that war. Perhaps you believed that to be the typical rhetoric of a politician. You need to open your eyes and realize that Iraq is just one battle in a larger war, just like Afganistan.

Syria has long been on the State Departments list of Terrorists states. It only makes since that we make the same offer to Syria that we made to Afganistan and Iraq - get rid of the terrorist within your borders or we will do it for you. Now, the message will not be taken as just rhetoric. We have proven our resolve and our capability to enforce that resolve. And it doesn't hurt that we are already mobilized within striking distance. There doesn't need to be any time wasted with the UN (they have already shown what a farce the UN is) or with moving men and materials to the region.”

“tarp rat, you don't think terrorist are in Syria? You are so sad.”

“Tarp Rat, a lot of rage there.

I don't want to invade lots of countries, suffer battle casualties and civilian casualties, etc. But a country needs to be responsible for its citizens' behavior and for what happens inside of its' borders. The U.S. would welcome Syria taking care of its' own murderers. Why does everyone like to paint the U.S. as a bunch of murderers? Our churches and non-profits send groups over to many countries with volunteers and supplies to build basic infrastructure for water and handling sewage and growing crops. We spend millions on food aid, through the non-profits as well as the government. Yes a lot of aid is tied to political agreements just like a lot of corporate contracts. Can this be fixed or is it a fact of life? Watching the UN in action this year, I'm inclined to think that it is pretty entrenched.

That should be a book, the mass murders perpetrated by goverments around the world in the last 100 years. It would be interesting to see the dark side of all countries, including the U.S. in a comparative publication.”

“Drill ANWR..........NOW”

“Yes it makes me angry that we are all so #&%!$ing selfish! All you and most people care about, deep down, is keeping yourselves fat and happy. None of us are willing to give up anything. We will do anything to keep our economy going, so we can keep driving our SUV's, buy #&%!$, we throw away in a month, at home depot, and buy buy buy!

Maybe some of us should step up and take one for the world! This is global.. people hate us for a reason, and some, for good reason. You can only push people so far who have nothing.

I am sick of the government calling terrorists cowards, when Americans are the cowards. They keep saying that 9-11 only stealed our resolve, bull #&%!$... we are a bunch of scared, life loving, resource draining #&%!$s! And yes I would move to #&%!$ing canada if I could, because I don't want to be a part of this bull#&%!$ anymore!”

“And before you go thinking I am a terrorist sympathizer, and call the FBI, I am more of a pacafist than anyone, but I see both sides and we are not innocent hero's! If you are going to invade someones homeland, prepare for those people to defend themseleves anyway they can... all is fair in war!”

“........we bomb 'em...........I'll take 1 bunker buster please”

“"None of us are willing to give up anything."

OK, you first. How about you start with your computer and ISP account? LOL!

Be of good cheer my man. The wolrd isn't as bad as we think it is. There are a lot of good things and good people in the world. While the world isn't going to give us a free ride it also isn't hiding around every corner waiting to screw us in the butt. 8)”

“Tarp Rat, a lot of what you say is true, compared to the huge numbers of poor people in the world (and in the US as well) those of us who have food and shelter are selfish and greedy. I hate when I read about a celebrity having a million dollar wedding and I hate the SUVs that are not really needed to drive on muddy or snowy backroads or to hold large families. But I am not moving to another country over it. What makes you think that Canada is different?”

“Lots of people would help you pack.”

“calm down and have a flour tortillia with us ALL :>)”

“I may be naive in thinking it's wrong to invade any country you decide poses a threat Hyway.

Now I've said before, that when it
came down to the final run I think it was right to go to war with Iraq. Widening this will be wrong.

I don't understand your other comment about Clinton, what has that got to do with it? Can you blame him for everything? Did it hurt you to know that a Democrat was in charge while as a country you were respected on the world stage and got wealthier by the day?

Maybe there's terrorists in Canada, Mexico, the French - add them to the list for fun. Invade them all.
As for naivity, I think you should look a little wider than to take everything a Government says at face value.
I'm willing to wait and see what happens before making a judgment on Bush's Iraq policy. He could be proved to be right. I for one will join the protests should there be an attempt to invade anyone else.

I do think Rumsfeld is just engaging in brinkinsmanship in this case - the same brinksmanship which made such a mess of gaining international backing for this war.”

“also on the point of aid

How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?
The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world’s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 5.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.

source”

“And as far as Iraqis defending their homeland, that is something that makes me very sad. There are a lot of people there who died because they were ignorant or had no choice but to fight for Saddam. And the U.S. military and press really yucked it up in describing the killing of targets. That part I hate because those targets were someone else's sons and husbands in Iraq. But would you have recommended that we leave Saddam alone, let him continue his degradation of the Iraqi people, let his son take over for another 50 years of torture and fear? I really feel that something had to be done, and Iraqis didn't do it themselves. The other muslims countries didn't do it themselves. The U.S. did it for their own reasons, but it still needed to be done.”

“Tarp is on to something and I mostley agree with him. Our country does have it better than most in the world. I do not agree that a country like Syria can invade and pummel another country (Lebanon) and harbor groups that are agressive to anyone that does not agree with them. Those people are dangerous, period. They have proved that. So what if they think Israel is illegal (let's save that for another time). Fighting fire with fire harms there cause. If Syria does not give up there current situation, I would support action against them. We have BS'd in the ME for so long, we might be at the point where we might have to exhaust our final option with them. I am by no means a "hawk", but I do know that history DOES have a way of repeating it's self.”

“Tarpy has a point, just invade anyone who disagrees with us. I knew he'd come to his senses and get on board.

My neighbor is Syrian, and just got back from a business trip there. He says the Syrian on the street (actually in the coffee shops) can get CNN, Fox, NBC, CBS, and Aljezeera, and is watching them all. They are all in Arabic. They are not vehemently anti-American in their views, because they see Iraqis being freed from a repressive government, and kind of wish they could be also. He thinks that if the US has success in exiting in a good way, it will be viewed favorably by the typical Syrian. He says even now with unfinished business still ahead, Syrians have a lot more respect for the US than they did.

As far as invading other countries, I think we should formulate a set of rules and triggers that would have set the world in action against Hitler before it was too late. By any conceivable set of such rules, action against SH would have been justified. If another despot comes along and violates those rules, he should be taken out. If the UN wants to do it, fine. But if the US can do it and prevent a future Hitler, it must. Do you really think that Hitler should not have been stopped before he was? So if we should have stopped Hitler, should we not stop Hitler imitators? We haven't stopped Elvis imitators, and you can see where that has led us. What would be next, Jerry Lewis imitators? Chuck Norris imitators? If if were left to France, they would have Jerry Lewis clones, for heavens sake. Some mature adult has to step in, and I guess that mature adult is Geraldo Rivera.”

“I say you are niave because you are talking out of sheer emotion and not fron facts. The State Department has a short list of known Terrorist states. This list has been around for a long time. We know who supports terrorism, it isn't a haphazerd process where we throw darts at a map to decide who we should invade next.

I mention Clinton because every word out of his mouth was political speech that had very little relationship with the truth or with his own personal values. there was never any reason to believe that he would do what he said he would do. Because of that you were ill-prepared to take Bush at his word when he said we would go after countries that harbor terrorist. My post made no comment on the any problems that might have been caused by Clinton.”

“ynami, that report doesn't include non-profit aid to foreign countries. I have no idea how much that aid adds up to but it would be curious to see it. It is interesting to see that countries much smaller than us donate so much aid to other countries. I would be curious to see if the money is spent on humanitarian needs in the poorest countries or if it is thinly veiled corporate support. I'm skeptical but willing to do more research. I know that we have received flak at the UN for not paying our share.”

“I'm interested in seeing how Iran's elections go next year. There is a big swell of support for change there. This doesn't mean we should do the changing though. Exciting times we live in, ey?”

“LyndyS is so wrong”

“My perceptions of Bush have nothing to do with my perceptions of Clinton. They are two different people and I am capable of realizing that. Clinton lied, virtually all politicians lie and tell half truths. I have no doubt that at least three of the top members of this administration would lie if they believe it was in America's interest to do so. So to think that one was a lier and one tells nothing but the truth is completely wrong - the situation is not as clear as that.”

“Do tell, Jello.”

“You already did”

“What liberals can't believe is that Bush is doing something because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Maybe he is, ever think of that?

I didn't say I think he is a genius or that I agree with everything he says, but I suspect he is doing what he thinks is the right thing to do. I think Clinton did that in Bosnia, also.

Too bad Nixon and Kissinger didn't have similar convictions when 2,000,000 people died in Cambodia and the UN and US did nada. Shame on the UN and the US leaders.”

“Iran today is more moderate than ever before.

I like IB's idea about certain "triggers" that would cause action. Very interesting....

A country should not be judged by how much money they give to other nations. Look at the "aid" that was given to Iraq, it went to weapons, palaces, heel, they have even found UNICF food in Uday's home......”

“Hyway, I am questioning this from the ground up... it's so easy to label people as terrorist when they are really fighting the only way they can because everthing has been taken away from them. If they had the weapons the US has, they wouldn't resort to the these tactics, but they have to, because it's the only way they can fight for their cause. I don't see this as terrorism, I see this as war!”

“I don't think non-profit aid counts in this measurement Lyndy, you would also have to take in the non-profit funds given from other countries.
I think a country should be judged on how much aid it's given. There should be tight monitoring of where it goes. But saying some funds are misused is no excuse for giving far less than others.
There is also a difference between military aid and aid that goes to the people. Aid is also often used as a political tool.”

“Any regime is to be considered "at war" with the world if they:

1. develop WMD
2. imprison people for political views
3. sponsor terrorism (training camps, funding, refuge, supplies)
4. invade a neighboring country
5. so oppress their own people that large numbers of regufees flee the country
6. oppress factions within their own country, such as by tribal affiliation, religious sect, political affiliation, ethnicity, sex, etc.
7. imprison or kill their own populace without due process.
8. support regimes in other countries that do these things.

Those rules would have caught Hitler, and also justify taking SH out. By these rules, the US should also get rid of WMD, which I think we should. Who are we going to use a nuke on anyway, the civilian population of a city? Get real. Those days are gone. Get rid of them. We should also stop support of Saudi Arabia, and France is suspect for support SH.

Any nation that has massive power and doesn't lift a finger to help oppressed people is amoral. If you want to call that interfering with other peoples business, fine. Maybe their business needs to be interfered with.”

“If a report is done that truly measures all the countries, apples to apples, as to their humanitarian aid, then yes our country should give more than it does.”

“Jello Fog, you are so wrong to say that I am wrong while you are afraid to specify what you disagree with. Are you afraid to disagree with the other people on this thread or is it just me?”

“Idaho, apply that now and see how many countries we would have invaded over the last 50 years?

I saw this on the back of a car the other day:

Shocked
Awed
And Disgusted

My feeling exactly, and under that it said USMC Veteran!”

“and all others.........I disagree with all who disagree with me”

“sure Tarp Rat sure”

“I agree with Tarpie, we are way behind on our invasion duties. We should have "invaded" Cambodia, Bosnia, and various African countries. Except lets call them "visits" instead of "invations".”

“Idaho Bob, the problem with your list is that America would have been caught by most of those criteria at some point as well as Hitler. I think the problem that many have is who decides who is a terrorist and who isn't. If you make one or two countries the arbitor of that rather than the full international community then your cause stops being just and you become an agressor little better than the regimes you seek to change.”

“IB: How many of those eight would they have to violate for the trigger to go?”

“shocked and awed and disgusted at the Anti-American backpackers in this forum...............may you all step in a bear trap on a solo hike!”

“Well maybe if the US was "caught" by these rules, the US was not doing something that was totally nice. I know that has happened, and it shouldn't. But in recent history, we have a better record that we used to. And compared to other countries of the world we are looking pretty good. We do get extra credit on the refugee factor, however. We don't make refugees from the US, but pull refugees from all over the world. When people start leaving the US in droves, maybe we'll know that we are doing something wrong.”

“Shocked and awed by your comments Jello, may your industry prove to be corrupt and fall apart....oh... hang on”

“I'm hangin'”

“you work in the power industry don't you Jello, or is the mysterious troll not who I think it is?”

“Idaho Bob can start the drove any time he wishes”

“How many does it take to trigger a "visit"? It is calculated on a sliding scale. If you have 8 out of 8, and they are all fairly significant, boom, you're done. If you only have 1, but its real bad, boom, you're done. If you have 2 that are in the "orange" zone, boom, you're done. If you have all 8, but at low levels, you just get a warning from France, and they cut off your wine shipment but keep selling you bombs.”

“and which troll are you???????”

“What do you mean troll? I'm advocating unilateral elimination of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. Who needs them? Lets invest in Patriot missles instead, and Abrams tanks.”