Is the Bush plan working?

“I would never sell El Al short, they are very good at what they do. Their methods are just different than ours.”

“Then why are we so stubborn and short-sighted?”

“Anyone who goes there voluntarilly is taking a chance. They have been warned, it is their responsibility to stay safe. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If you place yourself in a dangerous situation, expect to pay the consequences if you screw up.”
SquirrelBait
9:51:30 AM
4/27/05


that I agree with..not enough money to make me want to go over there
last edited: 4/27/05 9:59:29 AM”

“How did we get from Americans not being attacked in Iraq to Iraq being unsafe for Americans? Which is it?”

“Philosophers have said if you want to judge a people, look at how they treat their prisoners.

”

“Zarqawi Laptop Treasure Trove of Terror Info
Wednesday, April 27, 2005
By Niles LathemWASHINGTON — Information seized from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's laptop computer revealed the Jordanian master terrorist has been expanding his jihad network outside Iraq and is emerging as Al Qaeda's preeminent global military commander, The Post has learned.

U.S. intelligence officials who were briefed on data gleaned from a computer taken after a Feb. 20 U.S. Special Forces ambush in Iraq — in which Zarqawi narrowly escaped — said they have discovered shocking new details about the growing threat to U.S. and Western interests posed by the brutish Zarqawi — who is rapidly eclipsing Usama bin Laden in importance.

"He's becoming the new bin Laden. He's the man out there carrying out attacks on Americans every day while bin Laden, who is heavily pressured and having difficulty communicating on a regular basis, is in the shadows and becoming more of a symbolic figure," said former CIA counterterrorism director Vincent Cannistraro.

Counterterrorism expert Rita Katz added, "Zarqawi is more visible and available than bin Laden right now and seems to be the man most willing to take the fight to the Americans."

Originally considered a rival of bin Laden, Zarqawi last year pledged allegiance to Al Qaeda and changed the name of his organization to Al Qaeda in Iraq.

The data in his computer reveals Zarqawi is directing scores of fanatics from Yemen, Saudi Arabia and other Arab states who volunteered for "martyrdom" missions in Iraq and other countries, sources said.

"The information has given us new insight into the scope of his operations outside of Iraq that we did not know about previously," said a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the analysis.

The official said new secret counterterror operations have been launched by the CIA and intelligence services of other countries as a result of information in his laptop.

Sources said the computer files also yielded recent communications with al Qaeda leaders, including a message from bin Laden's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahiri, in which he urged Zarqawi to expand his operations outside Iraq to include attacks on Americans in the United States.

The Department of Homeland Security released details of that message in a bulletin to law enforcement agencies last month.”

“Brigadier shocks and awes: there is no war on terrorism

The so-called global war on terrorism does not exist, a high-ranking army officer has declared in a speech that challenges the conventional political wisdom.

In a frank speech, Brigadier Justin Kelly dismissed several of the central tenets of the Iraq war and the war on terrorism, saying the "war" part is all about politics and terrorism is merely a tactic.
[...]
The war of the future would be "out of human control". There was "no alternative" but to engage the population and "convince them of your rightness".
[...]
To fight such a war, a new kind of soldier was needed - one not only proficient in the latest technologies, but who had been educated in "cultural understanding" and sensitivity.

Brigadier Kelly said modern war could be defined as "conflict, using violent and non-violent means, between multiple actors and influences, competing for control over the perceptions, behaviour and allegiances of human population groups".

He said he found it interesting that "if you take out violence out of the first line, it's a description of politics".”

“WASHINGTON, April 26 (Reuters) - Iraq's insurgency remains undiminished in its capabilities in the past year despite U.S.-led efforts to crush the rebels, the top American general said on Tuesday.

"I think their capacity stays about the same," Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said of Iraq's insurgents during a Pentagon briefing. "And where they are right now is where they were almost a year ago."

Asked during the briefing "are we winning" the war, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not directly respond.

"The United States and the coalition forces, in my personal view, will not be the thing that will defeat the insurgency," Rumsfeld said.

"So, therefore, winning or losing is not the issue for 'we,' in my view, in the traditional, conventional context of using the word 'winning' and 'losing' in a war. The people that are going to defeat that insurgency are going to be the Iraqis."
[...]
Myers said rebels are staging 50 or 60 attacks a day in Iraq after the number had dipped to about 40 daily. He said the number of daily attacks is about the same as a year ago.
[...]

source”

“Oh come on Violin, you are asking him to actually read? That could destroy his whole point of view, and what then?”

“Terrorism is tha bomb.”

““I see many different opinions Tree, but very few methods have been brought forward. Everyone complains about how Bush is handling the war on terror but no one has a better idea.”
SquirrelBait
9:05:38 AM
4/27/05

I've seen lots of thoughtful analyses and plans for how to go about it. Richard Clarke detailed a very tough minded approach to terrorism in his book "Against All Enemies." Invading Afghanistan to get the Taliban made lots of sense, because thats where our terrorist enemies were. They weren't in Iraq. Plenty of 'em were in Saudi Arabi.

The point is the invasion of Iraq wasn't an attack on terror.”

“And Bacpac... you can quibble about whether terrorism has doubled or tripled from 2003 to 2004, but the indisputable fact is that it has soared. So your trumpeting of decreased terrorism as a signt that Bush's plan was succeeding was many miles off the mark.”

“Nice picture Violin, got any of the American that was beheaded by the terrorists? I see someone patched that prisoner up with a bandage on his bleeding knee, but once again, got any pictures of the terrorists slicing the head off of an American? I found it interesting that all during the Abu Graib hoopla the press conveniently forgot to give much airtime to that story.

I don't agree 100 percent with some things the Bush administration has done. I also think that if you wait for a straight answer from Donald Rumsfeld you will die of old age, disapointed and still waiting. I agree that Iraq was not the best avenue to take to directly combat terrorism, in this instance I would call it indirect fire. Direct fire is putting your gunsite on the enemy and destroying him, indirect fire is like artillery, you have an area, you carpet it with ordnance in hopes your enemy is close wnough to a blast. Anyone who thinks that Iraq, or any other Middle East country was not an active supporter of terrorism is a little misinformed. Yes, Saudi Arabia is a part of that. The mission to Iraq toppled the worst leader in that region. Some say it smacks of colonialism, which is somewhat true, although we will never colonize Iraq. Our tactics in taking over Iraq in the hopes of changing the government are directed towards a more far reaching goal. If a democratic government can be instilled in the region, we win. Plain and simple. Is it going to be easy, hell no. People are going to die. But look at the fact that even though Iraqi police recruits are killed almost daily, at least attacked that often, there are still many of them lining up to join the forces. Iraqis lived under hellish unfair conditions under Saddam Hussein, they are tasting freedom, and they like it. Granted the United States doesn't do this for everyone, and yes, we do have financial interests in the region. In the end, if this experiment works, the world will be a better place. The chances of it working? Hard to say, but as Wayne Gretzky used to say, you'll always miss 100 percent of the shots you didn't take.”

“Ewk, just read your post..

sorry you and your family got sent to a place we had no place going to start with

BTW, if Bush Sr had done his job the first time we wouldn't have had this problem now
last edited: 4/27/05 9:42:30 AM”
Ewker
9:41:30 AM
4/27/05

I am not sorry I got sent over there. None of my family is. I was a tanker in the first gulf war. I got to see what Iraqis do to others. On the other hand, I got to eat with bedouins in mud huts in the middle of nowhere and I have experienced things few people will ever get to. As far as Bush Sr doing his job, well at the time, his job was to liberate Kuwait. At the time it was better to have Saddam in power than to create a leaderless state.”

“And tree, about your post regarding why are we so stubborn and short sighted? Well it depends on how you look at it. If the we you referenced is we the american people I would have to say it's our deep rooted sense of isolation from the rest of the world. For decades Americans have lived seeing others getting attacked, seeing others getting kidnapped and hijacked. It is only recently that we have had to deal with terrorist activities. The biggest eye opener was in 78 when the hostages were taken in Iran. Then came the Achille Lauro when an American in a wheelchair was killed. Throw in an attack on the World Trade Center and a few Americans here and there being unfortunate enough to be on the wrong plane at the wrong time. It is only recently that Americans have come under direct attack and the numbers are still very very low compared to other countries, namely Ireland and Israel. Those two countries were locked in fear for many many years on a daily basis due to terrorism. Today the governement and other news sources released a report saying that terrorist attacks still posed a formidable or significant threat to the us and its partners. No duh. Of course we are still a target. And the main reason attacks are up is due to what is going on in Iraq. Most of the deaths are from Iraqis dying from terrorist attacks. Their example, if people want to show it in a positive light rather than a gloom and doom light, is that even though they are being attacked and killed they are still forging a new nation. They are still trying hard to get along with three distinctly different factions. And if the persevere it will show the world that terrorism doesn't really matter, even though they can attack and bomb randomly like the snivelling yellow bellied cowards that they are, governments will prevail and in the end succeed. That is the positive point of what is going on in Iraq.”

“Where were you when planes were getting hijacked left and right in the seventies? The impetus for the airline industry to act was there. You are just not acknowledging it. It was there enough for the US to put federal marshals on board flights. Why discontinue something that works? Cost, perhaps?”

“Squirrel bait is the right handle.”

“I mentioned that briefly Tree, but the fact is most of the planes getting hijacked were non american carriers with no Americans on board.”

“Not true! Why, then, did the US government put sky marshals on board if this wasn't our problem?”

“And yes tree you hit it right on the head. Cost, it's all about cost. Why not lock the cabin doors? Cost. Why not put a Federal Air Marshal on every plane? Cost. It all comes down to cost. Why not have more Border Patrol? The list goes on and on. So maybe, if we took out the cost of water stations and EPIRBs in the deserts of the Southwest maybe we could save enough money to have more Border Patrol....hmmmmmm”

“They just finally started putting sky marshals on board. Sure there were a piddly few over the past years, but nowhere near the numbers they have now. Finally someone woke up and said, Hmm maybe we need someone to protect our planes. Another factor was the airlines, among others, not wanting gun toting cops on their planes. They were afraid they would shoot a hole in the plane and cause an emergency decompression resulting in loss of the entire aircraft. Instead they opted for the "Just do as they ask" answer. Well we see where that got us.”

“Prioritize the moeny! Yes! Let's do waht's important.

And, now to bing that point back full-circle to Iraq:

Yes, I critisize the sh_t out of the Bush administration for creating the false urgency, using faulty info to rush into a war that could have been accomplish with more finesse. Hussein was under a microscope at the time. He couldn't sh_t outside his house without the world knowing it. All the "clandestine" activity he was being accused of doing two years ago turned out to be unfounded, as more reports drift in lately. So, what would have been so bad about forming a much more sizable coalition to alleviate some of the costs and spread the manpower with the other powers in the world? It would have had the same end result with a different time frame...”

“The idea of sky marshals is not such an in-your-face approach. They could be present without standing on the wing wielding a machine gun!”

“Why not lock the cabin doors? Cost

It was the Airline industry that lobbied against this measure. They said it would cost to much.

Lets see, tax breaks for the rich or protecting our boarders...Invade Iraqi or go after Osama. It would seem that cost depends on who's lobbying you.
last edited: 4/28/05 9:01:16 AM”

“hehehe, it is easy to pickout the sky marshall's. Just look at the ones that don't have to go through security or board the plane b4 anyone else”

“As always hindsight is 20-20 and there will always be better ways to accomplish goals, especially in wars. Husseien, with the help of France Germany and Russia was shi--ing all over the UN resolutions and still selling his oil to those countries. The UN was shi--ing all over itself since members of that institution were being bribed to allow the oil for food program to be used for personal gain. The coalition formed to fight him this time had more member countries than the first gulf war, but to many they weren't the "right" countries.”

“but to many they weren't the "right" countries.”

Yea, like country's that were committed enough to help pay for it in manpower and funds.

I respected Daddy Bush for the first war....can't say the same for little bush.
last edited: 4/28/05 9:14:27 AM”

“No hindsight here, SB. I said it then and I say it now. Arrogant muscle flexing in the face of the UN was a bad approach. It was unnecessary. We could have accomplished this with bit more forethough. You have skirted this issue, though...”

“Pretty much steve, but I guess that's a problem when you live in a country that very rarely tries to regulate actions taken by private companies. Unless of course the private companies have a large lobby and they go bankrupt and ask for money, like Northwest airlines. Or Lee Iacocca.”

“No, I agreed with you. But how long would it have taken? This is a sticky issue with many many sides. And we could spend many many hours picking it apart. I think we did the right thing by attacking. Yes it could have been done better, yes it could have been done without the republicans trying to garner emotional support by crying wolf about WMDs. We did it, it is working, so we have to ride it out. Yes there will be more deaths, yes it is a rough road, but in the end, if the new government prevails, it will have been for the good of this country and the world at large. Mistakes were made, we can't change that, now we just have to keep working to get the new gov't on its feet.”

“My biggest issue now is the fact that big industry seems to be running the country. Most if not all decisions seem to be influenced by big corporations and their lobby's.

Perhaps the people need their own lobby. Actually, I thought that was supposed to be how it worked.
last edited: 4/28/05 9:18:47 AM”

“Big industry has been running this country for a long time I think.”

“Yea, I agree...but lately it seems their voice has begun to drown out the peoples voice.”

“"we will never colonize Iraq."

Right...

That's why we are building the largest U.S. embassy in the world there along with 14 huge enduring bases.”

“Take away safe havens? Are you f_cking kidding? We created a huge one in Iraq!!”
Treebeard
9:19:54 AM
4/27/05

You think Iraq is safe for terroists?

The mortality rate is higher than you think.”

“Philosophers have said if you want to judge a people, look at how they treat their prisoners.

VioLiN
10:08:38 AM
4/27/05

The evidence I have seen of American 'abuse' does not amount to much more than Fraternity hazing.”

“The evidence I have seen of American 'abuse' does not amount to much more than Fraternity hazing.”
bacpac

”

“My browser did not download the picture.

Is this another Fraternity prank?”

“You guys would get a kick out of my constituants who voted republican and are getting laid off because of the massive reduction in education funding here in Ohio (thanks solely to republican initiatives both state and federal). The very same people who turned thier noses at my warnings in October are now out of jobs, and desperate.

Arrogance+Ignorance= Middle Class people who vote for republicans.”

“Maybe if those same education field workers took a look at the mess they have made of their own schools they would still have a job. Maybe if a few after school programs were cut then the teachers would have enough money to teach rather than raise the children of the community. Maybe if the extremely top heavy administration of the school (Not all schools, but many) cut a few non teaching positions that were supernumerary you would have schools doing what they were supposed to be doing. Teaching students, not providing them a home away from home. Not trying to be foster homes for kids who the schools perceive need a place other than their homes to grow up. Sure the schools are an integral part of a childs' upbringing but I think the schools are too powerful and full of themselves. Just recently the school principal in my small town told his students that no matter whether a parent calls in and says the student has permission to be absent from school, he, the principal, has more power and authority than the parent. If he deems it necessary then he can say the absence is unexcused. I don't care if a parent calls in to the school and says "Johnny won't be coming to school today because the wind is blowing from the Southeast". If the parent says it's excused then it is excused. The schools have no right to say a parent can't take a kid out of school for any reason. I know the argument that may arise from this is that some parents don't care and will pull kids out just cause the kids don't want to go to school etc, well, too bad. For the very few that do that, oh well. It is not the school's responsibility to regulate the life of the child at home nor is it the school's responsibility to dictate what goes on at the home.”

““You guys would get a kick out of my constituants who voted republican and are getting laid off because of the massive reduction in education funding here in Ohio (thanks solely to republican initiatives both state and federal). The very same people who turned thier noses at my warnings in October are now out of jobs, and desperate.

Arrogance+Ignorance= Middle Class people who vote for republicans.”
Buddha Bear
9:46:21 PM
4/28/05

Try putting the blame where it lies, with the NEA.”

“SB, with all due respect, just what was your tirade about schools a response to? And, just where do you live, that this notion of POWER from the school exists? I'm sorry, but your post seems so out of touch with rreality (as I know it), that it's uncanny!

Cut after school programs? Are you out of your mind? I've seen more cuts in great programs that my kids never got to enjoy, due to friggin' cuts than I care to think about! And you are advocating more? Are you a parent? I hope the answer is no. It would at least, partially, explain your cluelessness!

Also, where did you get this home away from home notion?
last edited: 4/29/05 7:33:34 AM”

“I got that thread from Buddha Bear just above mine. The power part came from a recent statement made by the principal of my high school, the high school my girlfriend's kids go to, regarding senior skip day. What great after school programs are you talking about that got cut that you wished your kids had gone to? What other program got started with the funding or what school administrator was hired with the money?My point about schools. Get back to education. Get away from schools funding programs that they think are needed in the community because parents seem not to be able to handle being parents. When I was in school, parents were more important than the school when it came to decisions about the kids. If a parent wanted to take a kid out for a day, no problem. My freind's son and nephew went to Canada fishing with their Grandpa during football season, Vance, the nephew missed two practices. He was taken off the special teams kick return for his football team even though he was the leading returner. Why should he have been punished for doing something with his family? At one time NOTHING was scheduled to happen on the weekends, that was traditionally family time. Here where I am from they have started having weekend track meets and other events that kids are required to attend. If they don't they lose status on the teams. I can go on and on with examples, but I would like to hear about your examples about the programs your kids missed out on.”

“Several tutoring programs have been cut. Most recently, a math program that my son was in dire need of got the ax. Their only alternative is now a Saturday program that is only partially useful to him. He goes for three hours and must sit through 1 1/2 hours of English, which is something he excels in, before he gets to the math he's there for. His motivation level is being stretched in that regard. It's a package deal and all they offer any more is this, where there used to be alternative. You see, Governor Pataki has seen to fit through his twelve year reign that NYC kids get short-changed, compared to those upstate. This has been litigated again and again and the state loses every time. They are still reneging on back money (billions) that the court ordered them to pay.

Since state aid is a smaller portion of wealthier districts’ revenue because of higher property taxes revenue, cuts in state aid have a greater and more inequitable effect on poorer districts and some of that falls on the City kids' backs.

Another by-product was that class sizes have increased to levels that compromise the effectiveness of their education.

Among other programs getting the axe were, to my memory (some of these were from years past) were mainly in the arts, which is is what my daughter is particularly suited for. Drama, music and drawing, to name a few. She also suffered a setback when they eliminated funding for this "sisterhood" program for the girls in her high school. For my son, he was involved in the leggo robotics program (not exactly sure if that is still unavailable or has been restored) and several computer programs were axed, too. That's what comes to mind, off the bat...
last edited: 4/29/05 8:23:46 AM”

“Have you tried any of the magnet schools? If your kids excel the magnets are a good start. When the programs you are talking of got cut, did the money go elsewhere in your school disappear or were administrators hired?

You and I are from two different worlds. I come from a town of a little over 1000 people in the middle north of fly over land. You come from the biggest city in the United States. Inner city schools cannot compare to country schools and vice cersa. We are closer to the administration in our schools simply because the Superintendant's office is right beside the High School principal's office. We have no vice principals etc.. We also don't have the types of programs you do.”

“Yes, SB! It's a whole 'nother world here. It is enormous. And, Iwould have to be some sort of Superman (or, at least, an insider) to be able to accurately answer your question about the funding.

But, to be frank, and to limit the scope here, what I am really pissed at is Pataki's arrogance in this whole thing. I hate to say I voted for him last time around, too. His third term has been a disaster. His handling of the MTA fare hikes and the situation with NYC education funding has me fuming. So, pardon me if this issue seems to incense me. It hits a little close to home...
last edited: 4/29/05 8:44:44 AM”

“SB, not all magnet schools are that great. They use them to show racial balance.

exp: in the magnet schools here it is divided up 25% white guys, 25% white girls, 25% black guys, 25% black girls.

The white girls and boys are on waiting list to get into these magnet schools. The black boys and girls can't fill up their quota so the unused seats sit empty.

It was suggested that since there are white kids waiting that they be given the open seats being held for blacks. That was shot down big time by saying the schools won't be racially balance.
So you know what they did? They lowered the standards for the black kids so they could get in.

All that does is lower the overall standards of the magnet school.”

“Well that kinda sucks. It's too bad that government sanctioned racism occurs in America, but it does and will for a long time to come.”

“It is more like reverse discrimination or unnecessary political correctness. The term racism reeks of hate, which may not be applicable in Ewker's example...”

“racism doesn't necessarilly have to do with hate, it simply has to do with exclusion. Excluding someone based on skin color is racism.”