Is the Bush plan working?

“The State Department reported that terrorist attacks world wide were down in 2002.

Who wants to place a bet that the attacks in 2003 are lower?”

“Not sure about '03, but they're going up. We killed many sister, brother, mother, father, children, parents & babies of religious fanatics. We're staying in that country, probably 10 years. We're going to lose soldiers/peacekeepers every one of those days. We'll boost their economy, increase their freedoms & education and the world will relax in time. 60% Shiite Muslims & we're going to block a cleric gov of their choice for a secular one. I'd say the odds are high.”

“I bet you a soda pop that you are wrong.”

“Wednesday, April 30, 2003
What were reasons for invading Iraq?
By PAUL KRUGMAN
SYNDICATED COLUMNIST

"We were not lying," a Bush administration official told ABC News. "But it was just a matter of emphasis."

The official was referring to the way the administration hyped the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the United States. According to the ABC report, the real reason for the war was that the administration "wanted to make a statement."

And why Iraq? "Officials acknowledge that Saddam had all the requirements to make him, from their standpoint, the perfect target."

A British newspaper, The Independent, reports that "intelligence agencies on both sides of the Atlantic were furious that briefings they gave political leaders were distorted in the rush to war." One "high-level source" told the paper that "they ignored intelligence assessments which said Iraq was not a threat."

Sure enough, we have yet to find any weapons of mass destruction. It's hard to believe that we won't eventually find some poison gas or crude biological weapons. But those aren't true WMDs, the sort of weapons that can make a small, poor country a threat to the greatest power the world has ever known.

Remember that President Bush made his case for war by warning of a "mushroom cloud." It's clear Iraq didn't have anything like that -- and Bush must have known that it didn't.

Does it matter that we were misled into war? Some people say that it doesn't: We won, and the Iraqi people have been freed. But we ought to ask some hard questions -- not just about Iraq, but about ourselves.

First, why is our compassion so selective? In 2001 the World Health Organization -- the same organization we now count on to protect us from SARS -- called for a program to fight infectious diseases in poor countries, arguing that it would save the lives of millions of people every year. The U.S. share of the expenses would have been about $10 billion per year -- a small fraction of what we will spend on war and occupation. Yet the Bush administration contemptuously dismissed the proposal.

Or consider one of the United States' first major postwar acts of diplomacy: blocking a plan to send U.N. peacekeepers to Ivory Coast (a former French colony) to enforce a truce in a vicious civil war. The United States complains that it will cost too much. And that must be true -- we wouldn't let innocent people die just to spite the French, would we?

So it seems that our deep concern for the Iraqi people doesn't extend to suffering people elsewhere. I guess it's just a matter of emphasis. A cynic might point out, however, that saving lives peacefully doesn't offer any occasion to stage a victory parade.

Meanwhile, aren't the leaders of a democratic nation supposed to tell their citizens the truth?

One wonders whether most of the public will ever learn that the original case for war has turned out to be false. In fact, my guess is that most Americans believe that we have found WMDs. Each potential find gets blaring coverage on TV; how many people catch the later announcement -- if it is ever announced -- that it was a false alarm? It's a pattern of misinformation that recapitulates the way the war was sold in the first place. Each administration charge against Iraq received prominent coverage; the subsequent debunking did not.
Did the news media feel that it was unpatriotic to question the administration's credibility? Some strange things certainly happened. For example, in September Bush cited an International Atomic Energy Agency report that he said showed that Saddam was only months from having nuclear weapons. "I don't know what more evidence we need," he said. In fact, the report said no such thing -- and for a few hours the lead story on MSNBC's Web site bore the headline "White House: Bush Misstated Report on Iraq." Then the story vanished -- not just from the top of the page, but from the site.
Thanks to this pattern of loud assertions and muted or suppressed retractions, the American public probably believes that we went to war to avert an immediate threat -- just as it believes that Saddam had something to do with Sept. 11.
Now it's true that the war removed an evil tyrant. But a democracy's decisions, right or wrong, are supposed to take place with the informed consent of its citizens. That didn't happen this time. And we are a democracy -- aren't we?”

“Bush is a scumbag.

Saddam told the world that Bush was a liar.

Saddam was indeed telling the truth. Bush was lying.

I'll bet you a soda pop Bush was lying.”

“And he STILL beat the best the democraps could muster.”

“I would like to lose that bet & give you a soda.

Seven U.S. Soldiers Wounded in Iraq Grenade Attack
15 minutes ago

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Seven U.S. soldiers were wounded in a grenade attack at their base in the Iraqi city of Falluja, where American troops killed at least 15 people during protests this week, the U.S. military said on Thursday.”

“I don't think an attack against soldiers during a war is technically a terroist act, but it is certainly a bad thing.”

“Was part of the Bush plan that you support the US withdrawal from Saudi Arabia? Wasn’t that one of Osama’s key demands? That ought to put the fear of Allah into ‘em!”

“I'm not quite comfortable with saying Saddam told the truth about anything.

Whenever Saddam said something significant that was true, it was a coincidence.

Even a broken watch is right twice a day.”

“Fortunately, there are more versions of the truth to chose from than just Bush's and Saddam's.”

“I'm with you on that, Ped (about Saddam). I editorialized my feelings on this board way before the war broke out. My main point of contention with Bush was that his administration was not being forthright with the American people. I don't look at that as being respectful of the citizens of the U.S. Sorry, but I expect a little more than "the less they know, the better" out of a man who considers himself a "regular guy" and a "compassionate conservative (a redundancy of the nth degree)." I have trouble looking at this man with the same respect that some of you do. As an American citizen, I am granted one small power in the democratic process of leader selection. That is my vote. I intend to use that vote, and in no way will it be given to our current leader...”

“Was part of the Bush plan that you support the US withdrawal from Saudi Arabia? Wasn’t that one of Osama’s key demands? That ought to put the fear of Allah into ‘em!

For one thing, Abdullah wanted the U.S. military out of SA. The U.S. recognized that removing its contentious presence will give SA more leverage to cooperate on Islamic extremism. On the other hand, it also sends a clear signal to SA that it is dependent on the U.S. for security, and that the U.S. will not provide it for a country that doesn't cooperate on al qaeda.

Linking the withdrawal with a message to al qaeda is clearly specious.”

“It's about time we got out of there. I think it would send a positive message that we don't want to be there any more than they want us there. I'd be willing to pay double for a gallon of gas if we would never buy another drop of oil from them. Hang 'em out to dry right beside the French!

Signed,
Nigal Beucanan”

“i agree nige. i think it's a signal to SA to show them we don't nbeed them anymore and they better play nice.....they gotta be nervous, lmao”

“In retrospect, it was a poor idea to keep our bases there long after the gulf war. Islamists saw it as an occupation of a Holy Land. However, our withdrawal is sure to be seen as capitulation. Our withdrawals from Lebanon and Somalia after US casualties were the reason al Qaeda felt they could force us out of SA through terrorism. They are sure to declare victory and use this as a recruiting tool. Have you read Osama’s 1996 DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE AMERICANS OCCUPYING THE LAND OF THE TWO HOLY PLACES?”

“However, our withdrawal is sure to be seen as capitulation

By who? After what happened in Iraq, I don't think there's much doubt in Arab minds about US determination. In fact, there's bound to have been a significant increase of fear and hopelessness to combat the West.

They are sure to declare victory and use this as a recruiting tool

Again, this was never an issue. Terrorist groups with world-wide reach (eg al qaeda) have NEVER been short of recruits. Due to their highly cellular and secure structure, they simply cannot field every arab peasant that wants to join.

If you're referring to funding, that also is unlikely to increase substantially, in light of post-9/11 events.”

“They are sure to declare victory "and use this as a recruiting tool."

Yeah, they could call it a victory...if the ex Iraqi Minister of Infomation is the one calling the play by play! LOL! We have destroyed Saddam. We have defanged Al quasidia. If they have any sense at all (I'm not holding out hope) they would realize that if you try and stick you dique to us it will be chopped off.

I hate people dieing but I do hope Hammas tries something so we can go after that bunch of lunatics.”

“Bacpac, what were these statistics? I think the prime thing you need to think about is that there would have had to be a hell of a lot happening in 2002 to get anywhere near 2001 following 9/11.
I do have a nagging suspicion that it's all far from over.”

“"I hate people dieing but I do hope Hammas tries something so we can go after that bunch of lunatics."

Sorry, that should read Hesbala and not Hammas. Haha! Forigne people spell funny.”

“Nigal-careful what you wish for.


I have a feeling there is more to come.”

“Mutt, I agree with you on many counts, but one thing you keep harping on that I dispute is this claim that terrorists will back down due to the determination the U.S. has shown. I have said before that these people don't reason this way. Hate knows no bounds. They are sneaky bastards and will not hesitate to regroup and direct another cowardly act at the U.S. or it's interests. Don't underestimate this. Money will flow in from other sources. Look at the war against drugs. For every shipment that gets stopped coming into the country, there are that many more that make it. You can't stop everything. And as long as there are people that are willing to die for these ridiculous causes, then you have a problem, my friend!”

“why is anyone happy about this????
"So dubya will be the Pretender of the U.S.

He is nothing but a scumbag anyway.

He was arrested for theft in 1968 and lied about it.

DUI in 1972 and lied about it.

DUI in 1976 and lied about it.

History of drug and alcohol abuse and lied about it.

Refused to take a drug test in the National Guard (fear of failure?) and lied about it.

Was AWOL for 18 months and lied about it.

Entered into business deals with known organized crime figures.


That's three strikes and you are out. In 42 states dubya would be classified as career criminal.

This loser is nothing more than a clinton clone who happens to be a republican."
gordon
03:35:54 PM
12/08/00

RE: The Fat Lady is Clearing her throat


Bush lied about his association with Kenneth Lay. Everything that comes out his mouth is a lie. How sad that Saddam can be trusted more than Bush to tell the truth about Iraq's WMD program and point out that Bush was lying about it. America has become a nation of scumbags who prefer to elect liars like Bush, Bush Sr. (read my lips), Clinton, Nixon, et al.”

“The bush plan is indeed working. the bush sprouts from a seed, grows, flowers, produces more seeds from which more bushes sprout.”

“Treebeard, I see your point, and to some extent I agree. However, I would point to the distinction between feeling hatred toward the West and feeling empowered to do anything about it. Also, remember al qaeda's goal is not to attack the West per se, but to create an Islamic super-state. They have utterly failed at this. Nothing the West has done has produced the revolution. The fabled Arab Street has failed to live up to expectations. What motivation would there be to be a recruit or funder of terrorists, when there has been no desired results, and in fact a worse situation than before - i.e. even more Westernization in the ME?”

“To the topic of this thread, I would add another question:

Is the price we have paid and continue to pay in Iraq worth the results?”

“Conspiracy theories are rampant in the Arab world. From what I read in the English language Arab press, many believe that Saddam was a CIA/Mossad operative working to destroy the Iraqi people and give the US an excuse to steal their oil. They believe he was spirited away with US help so that we have an excuse to invade other countries looking for ‘escaped’ Ba’athists and their WMD’s. They refuse to believe that we beat the Iraqi army so easily and use that as evidence of a plot. Not everyone sees our victory as an intimidating show of force – many apparently believe it shows how much we have corrupted regional governments.”

“Of Course it is!
"The bush plan is indeed working. the bush sprouts from a seed, grows, flowers, produces more seeds from which more bushes sprout."
Geobeet
10:00:57 AM
05/01/03

Geo-
You sound like Cauncy Gardener from "Being There"!! Couldn't hurt!”

“For What It's Worth...

According to an NBC reporter moments ago: ~95 possible WMD sites inspected, 0 WMD found so far.


Tonight:

The Mother Of All Photo Ops.”

“I really do have a problem if they don't find any WMDs. What does that make Bush and Blair if there was no real threat in the first place? I personally hope they find WMDs and find them quickly.”

“Mutt, I don't necessarily believe that whole Islamic state garbage. I think these people are motivated by other factors too. They deal in fairy tales when they train their suicide followers into thinking that they are doing these freakin' things for Allah and seventy virgins (who never bathed) and on and on... Peole around the world are jealous of our frivolous lifestyles and what they percieve as the 'arrogance of the west' aka Americans. I don't think that the Islamic state is any more realistic to Osama bin Laden than it is to you or I. A lot of that is a front for their hatred and petty jealousies. A lot of harm has arisen out of pettiness in this crazy world, Mutt. And as far as empowering them to carry these heinous acts out, money will flow in from new hate mongers that we are fertilizing with some of our government's actions...”

“You can always count on Geobeet to bring us back to reality lol.


(Simon and Garfunkel in the background "I am a rock, I am an island....)”

“Played to the accompaniment of chads falling gently to earth.”

“Segue to:

Chad drops keep fallling on my head ...”

“In 2002, terrorism was at it's lowest since 1969.

We're winning. Our resolve is paying off. Terrorism as we know it - of any percievable degree, indeed - will soon be a thing of the past.

9/11 changed everything. The determination of our leaders, followers, and everyone in between (with the exception of the you-know-who-you-ares), is real - and very, very deadly.

Many of you remind me of the typical detractors at the forums of The Black World Today.com.

Recently, on a thread there, a girl warned that "the rooster will come home to roost!" (referring to further, more deadly terrorists attacks here). I LOL'd in her face. "Sister" I says, "the rooster came home on 9/11, and today we're eating fried chicken."

Screw WMDs. Bush, et al, did the right thing... period.”

“Time will tell.”

“What the chads need now, is love, sweet love.”

“Gojo - so he did the right thing if we was proven to have taken America to war by lying to Congress and the American people?
(That's what would have happened if there are no WMDs).”

“ZZZzzzzzZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz.......”

“I think Gojo has his mind made up and closed for business.”

“bush himself said the primary reason for invading iraq was because of WMDs, it's a standard he set. the issue of WMDs, or evidence about what happened to them, will not go away.”

“Don't let fact get in the way of your opinions Gojo”

“The changing parameters of justification for this war amaze me.

The real justification will be in how soon the American public forgets.”

“"Determination of our leaders"


Yeah, determination to cash in on the terrorist threat.

Those message boards on the beltway
are "real" measures.....NOT!

What we may see soon is commercial ads framing those, "Terrorism Treat Moderate Today" signs.

"Buy Oscar Mayer Weenies"!”

“I think they'd be more useful if they had the weather forecast...

Today... Partly cloudy and clearing. High in the mid-70s. Threat of Mass Destruction: 0.03% and steady.”

“Terrorist threat moderate today. This message is brought to you by #&%!$ cream. You too can have a larger #&%!$ and thrill your woman.”

“Tom Terrific, your poorly affected Virginian schtick may play well among the mouth breathers here, but you are most definitely a poseur.”

“Look, it speaks Yiddish and French: truly a cosmopolitan troll.”

“You misspelled baiter, master!”

“Politicians of all types have always used events for their own good and lied/embellished the facts to get their way. Yes, oil was a factor in Iraq and yes they are liberated. Life goes on. I will not stay up at night worrying about the search for WMD and such. At this point what can we do but just keep on frying the chicken.”