how many guns you got?

“no chit? In .223cal.? where do you find it?”

“Normally I find it at gun shows and small shops but you can find some online too. Sportmans Guide is a good place. They sometimes have it. They now have some of the British Radway Green Arsenal rounds for $149 for 720 rounds.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=235018”

“Found some more of the same for only $129. Shipping to Indi is only $12 too.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/223.html”

“There you go Birch! At $.05/round you can shoot all day with out P/O the wife even! Hell ya can't even "roll your own" for that price! A few years ago a friend was reloading for me at $.22/rd. for 65gr. JHP's.”

“good stuff! I knew I had seen something about wolf ammo.

I had seen the SA ammo before. Not a big fan of mail order for ammo. The shipping is pricey. I'll probably go for a gun show later. Thanks

I have read that the mil spec ammo is a touch hot for a mini and with the loads above 55gr you get some bad performance due to barrell twist issues. I will have to see...”

“If you want to go to a serious gun show Birch, check out the Indy 1500. They say it is the biggest show east of the Mississippi. Tons of stuff for the mini. There are complete mod kits you can buy, see video demonstrations etc. There are different trigger accessories, stocks, specialty ammo (frangible, incendiary, all kinds of cool stuff) Lots of custom leather makers. Depending on what part of MI you are from it may be worth the drive.”

“meangreen, indy is about 4 hrs or so I think. We have two local shows monthly. I will prolly hit one of them. I found a deal(local shop) on .223 rem $100 for about 500rds, not bad, but still beatable.”

“I don't know how many times I have opened this thread and just not posted.
I own a 357 rifle, a .22 handgun and a Smith and Wesson nickel plated 9mm. I bought my 9 at a grocery store years ago called Smitty's. When I went to get my concealed weapons permit I made sure to use my 9mm. It has one hell of a kick back , but I did pretty good for a girl.:)”

“the other problem with wolf( or other former russian block) ammo is that the primers are corrosive as well, if you use it, clean everything PROMPTLY or you'll find a lot of damage really quickly.”

“I've used the wolf crap too and had trouble with cartrage expansion. The spent shells wouldn't come out of a revolver. WTF?

hms, I'm thinking of getting the wife into shooting and getting her her own handgun.”

“Nigal,
My sister is wicked deadly with just about anything she picks up, but she likes to carry one of the little Taurus .22 auto's in her purse. She also likes the Ruger GP100 w. a 6" barrel. not realistic for concealed carry (unless she wears a shoulder holster, and a parka LOL!), but it is great for the house. Dad had a trigger job done on it, and it's the smoothest easiest thing ever. Even in DA. If you started out with something like that, and a .38 load, it is very controllable, and will help if she is somewhat intimidated by the smaller stuff. That way she can work up to hotter loads, and then a smaller/lighter gun.”

“"but she likes to carry one of the little Taurus .22 auto's in her purse."

To throw at them? LOL! I know I know; every gun looks big when you're looking down the barrel. while my wife would insist on shooting anything a man can shoot I'd probably get her soemthing like a Colt Mustang or a hammerless Lady Smith.”

“Nigal
I know, I gave her a rash-o-s__t about it too. LOL! Lady smiths are nice. My sister also used to carry a taurus ultra-light snubby that she shot 357+P+'s through regularly and a baby glock .40, and....

She ain't skeert. LOL!

Th beauty of a DA revolver is incredible reliability. If you pull the trigger, and nothing happens all you have to do is pull it again, and jams are nearly 100% non-existent. No heavy slide to try to rack if a round jams, simple to maintain, etc...”

“I'm not a huge revolver fan but I did have a GP100 stainless with a bull barrel that was deadly accurate. My dad had a Colt Python 4" in flat matte black that was a little piece of heaven. He sold it though. DAMN!”

“Nigal-
We used to be able to shoot in certain parts of the open desert out here. At that time I had my boyfriend lay down on some poster boards and I traced him from head to "package". When we went shoooting I would prop them up and aim for his head and "package". If I ever have a home intruder I want to already be able to get him where it counts.”

“meangreen, indy is about 4 hrs or so I think.
birch
6:36:09 PM
7/07/06

no kidding? I'm originally from Coldwater ("on the pulse of Michigan" WHATEVER! LOL!), and still get up there once in a while. Where are you located?”

“Note to self:

Never break into hms's house without kevlar cup on. LOL!

I just got back from a new indoor range that opened near me. My dumbass brother told me we had had to shoot their ammo only so I didn't even take any of mine. Turns out you can shoot your own ammo just no hand loads. Had to pay $18 for 100 reloads, then $8 for new glasses, plus $16 for the lane, plus $4 for the targets. So it ended up being about $72 all together. It's only $14 an hour for a single lane which isn't hateful. They also have annual memberships for $300 or $500 for a pair. It's all state of the art with the automatic targets and everything. Had a great time.

My brother and I are going to build a range on my dad's property so we can do more practicle shooting and run and shoot type stuff with mock ups and everything.”

“Meangreen, I'm only about 2 hours from Indi. I go to my brother's in Plainfield all the time.”

“Oh I alson learned an interesting thing about guns with the trigger safety. If you squeeze the trigger, fire the round and keep the trigger pulled, then slowly let off the trigger you can feel a slight click as the trigger resets itself about half way through the travel. I was able to really speed up the double tap shots by not moving the trigger all the way back out but only to the point it resets itself.”

“meangreen, I am 2.5 miles west of detroit. I can get to muncie in about 3.5 hrs (my only reference point), thats about 30min from indy isnt it?

Look me up when you come this way, we can take ya paddling, shootin or hiking.”

“I had an interesting lesson in training techniques today. I have always been told to train properly because when the fit hits the shan all that training will come out naturally. My brother’s department has begun using a new technique. Normally when they shoot and train they fire the ordered number of shots (normally three rounds) and holster the weapon.

He said that research has shown that under stress and tunnel vision of the situation this all comes back. If you shoot three rounds and holster in practice the chances are there that you will do the same in a real life firefight. They even found cases of NYC cops back in the days when they carried revolvers there standard practice in training was shoot six times, dump your brass, pick up your brass. They had some guys get shot in firefights because they were stopping to pick up their brass.

Now in practice, they fire the rounds, stay at the ready and look both right and left to break the tunnel vision and make sure there are no other threats.


Anyone else heard of this?”

“no”

“Interesting Nigal,

In the military (except on live fire missions) we trained with three shots then put the weapon on safe, drop magazines etc... Everyone I know wh served in combat never mentioned an issue with the 3 shot deal. They did mention the takeover of training though. Once while hunting, I fired a shot at a deer and chambered a second rd and squeezed the trigger to no effect. I had put the safety on after firing the first...”

“Was anybody else laughing about the leftist outcry before the "Castle Doctrine" legislation passed in Florida? To hear it told by state leftists there should have been a virtual bloodbath in the streets as crazy gun owners went to shootin’ up the towns like the old Wild West.

This type of legislation has passed in a number of states by now. It’s been all over the papers hasn’t it?... No?




GOVERNOR BUSH NOTES CORRELATION BETWEEN
ARMED, LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS AND FLORIDA'S LOWER CRIME RATE
When queried this week about his state's declining crime rate, Florida Governor Jeb Bush (R) told reporters from the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel, "Law abiding citizens that have guns for protection actually probably are part of the reason we have a lower crime rate."
Florida is one of 40 states with Right-to-Carry statutes that allow their law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed firearm for self-defense. In addition, the state last year passed NRA-backed "Castle Doctrine" legislation that allows citizens to "stand their ground" and defend themselves against an attacker in a place where they have a legal right to be.
Florida's crime rate dropped for the 14th straight year and the crime rate is currently at its lowest level since 1971.

WASHINGTON, D.C., ONCE AGAIN
GRAPHICALLY ILLUSTRATES THE FAILURE OF GUN CONTROL
Washington, D.C.'s ban on handguns and on using guns for protection at home exists throughout the entire city. Now, so does the fear of violent crime. In the American city with the most restrictive "gun control" laws, a "crime emergency" has been declared, following 13 murders in only 11 days, as well as a spike in robberies and assaults. D.C.'s police chief, Charles Ramsey, issued the declaration on July 11, the third time he has done so in the last four years.
"It used to be almost 80 percent of criminals, if not higher, were arrested in areas near where they live," Chief Ramsey said. "Now we're starting to see a trend where more and more people are being arrested in places they do not live in." In a recent, highly publicized crime of this type, a British man had his throat cut and his woman companion was nearly raped in D.C.'s affluent, trendy, and usually peaceful Georgetown neighborhood. The main suspects in the murder, both from other neighborhoods, have criminal records, one for armed robbery and a drug charge, the other for drug offense and probation violation, and both are suspected of committing at least two robberies in Georgetown in recent weeks. Even the Washington Mall, a popular location for people touring the city's historic landmarks, has been plagued by crime recently. After a rash of robberies in May, a new string of robberies has begun around the Washington Monument.
D.C.'s delegate to Congress, Eleanor Holmes-Norton (D), has called for increased patrols in the Mall area. But we won't hold our breath waiting for her to join NRA in calling for repeal of the city's anti-gun, anti-self-defense laws. Holmes-Norton is one of the chief obstructionists to that long overdue reform.




I missed most of the headlines when mayor Nagin decided to suspend the second amendment of the United State’s constitution. Thank goodness there are still some law abiding legislators in congress. I also missed the coverage about these basic constitutional issues on TV news. Did anybody else catch them?




U.S. SENATE VOTES TO PROTECT SECOND
AMENDMENT RIGHTS DURING EMERGENCIES
On July 13, the U. S. Senate overwhelmingly passed (84-16) an amendment to the Homeland Security appropriations bill (H.R. 5441). This amendment, offered by Senator David Vitter (R-La.), prohibits the use of funds appropriated under H.R. 5441 for the confiscation of lawfully possessed firearms during an emergency or major disaster.
Commenting on the passage of the amendment, NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox said, "After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans Police Superintendent issued orders to confiscate firearms from all citizens, allegedly under a state emergency powers law. With that one order, he stripped the one means of self-protection innocent citizens had during a time of widespread civil disorder. This legislation guarantees that will never happen again."
Various reports indicate that law enforcement agencies from the federal government and several states confiscated guns from law-abiding New Orleans residents. The Vitter Amendment prohibits the use of federal funds to seize firearms or restrict firearms possession, except in the circumstances allowed by current federal or state law. Convicted felons and other "prohibited persons" are not protected under this legislation and it does not affect law enforcement operations outside of disaster relief situations.
"In passing this legislation, the U.S. Senate acted to protect the self-defense rights of citizens when those rights are most vital. There was no 9-1-1 or police to rely on while looters and rapists and thugs ran rampant and honest citizens were left to their own devices to protect themselves, their families and their neighbors. I want to thank Senator Vitter for introducing this amendment and all the Senators who supported it," concluded Cox.
In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and the resulting gun confiscations, NRA filed suit in federal court and won a temporary restraining order ending the illegal gun confiscations. After the City of New Orleans failed to comply with the court's ruling, NRA filed a motion of contempt that included an order that all seized firearms be returned to their rightful owners.

Due to NRA's efforts, emergency powers legislation prohibiting government officials from restricting the rights of law-abiding gun owners during declared states of emergency has passed this year in Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, South Carolina, Virginia, Alaska, Idaho, Kentucky, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma.




Gee, this stuff is very important news for the gun owners in the U.S. I wonder why the media didn’t make the obvious marketing decision to run multiple stories about these important constitutional issues? Wouldn’t that be good for sales or to generate viewers?

A generous estimate of homosexuals in the U.S. would be around 30 million. That is a VERY generous estimate. The media had lots of news coverage about homosexual marriage in Massachusetts.

There are at least 80 million gun owners in the U.S. The print and TV news media has had almost no coverage of any of these important constitutional gun issues.

Those numbers just don’t seem to add up if your business is to sell news.


Doncha just luv the way the no-liberal-media-bias idiots keep trying to worm their way out of explaining the elephant in the living room?








US Gun Statistics

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)

Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
Yes, that is 80 million.

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.




“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.“

Robert A. Heinlein
last edited: 7/16/06 7:18:05 PM”

“Lower crime rate except for here in Jacksonville. We're pretty much tied with Miami for murders. I believe, as of this afternoon, we're at 71 for the year so far.”

“Michigan will be adopting some "castle doctrine" type legislation this fall I belive, about time I say.”

““Florida is one of 40 states with Right-to-Carry statutes that allow their law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed firearm for self-defense.”

Who would have ever thought that we would have 40 states that had weapons carrying rights? It blows my mind. I personally credit Jeb Bush and the NRA for doing such a good job of leading the way in this. Most states have adopted the same laws Florida has taken the lead on. One thing that I was very keenly aware of when learning the laws was the amount of reasonable common since found in the law. We have a few stupid aspects of the law here in Ohio. Like when driving you must have the weapon in plain site on your person, or it must be locked up within the car. Wtf? Most cars don’t have a locking glove box any more. But even now the reasonability continues as law makers seek to fine tune the law.

The very fact that these laws that the NRA is helping to craft are very reasonable shoots holes in the myth that the NRA wants the return of the wild west. Sorry for the pun.


I finally got my permit so I'm finally carrying now. G-d bless America! LOL!”

“When I see the stats on the Murder rate (espeicially those where a firearm was used..) I wonder how many were NK (Needs Killing) types like Drug Dealers, and criminal scum. Truly I think they should take em and make em learn to shoot more accurately. Hey I don't mind taking a Wendy's break with a drug dealer who caught one in the war zone (in the back of the bus..so to speak)....I just hate it when it is an innocent bystander.”

“I don’t want anyone to have to be killed by a gun because it only goes into the stats pool to be manipulated later. Like how a justified shooting in self defense is still considered a gun death as is a suicide. They are counted the same as a four year old shooting themselves.”

“XL, I’ve seen your posts about guilt. I agree that is one component of leftist thought. I understand what Coulter’s talking about in her new book because it reminds me so much about the worst of organized religion. I also see a number of other dysfunctional philosophical constructs in leftists thought.

There’s a dysfunctional religious component that they want to make the world over in their own image. This constitutional statement is perfectly clear: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Why do the leftists constantly think they must redefine the rules just to suit themselves in the name of protecting us all?


There is a codependent component. There is no live and let live idealism within leftist philosophy. Leftists somehow believe that they can save all of us from ourselves. This is reflected in their policies of control. They want government regulation over business and use the excuse that business is just trying to take advantage of us all. They favor taxation because they don’t believe that people will act in a generous manner towards others without force. Some of the smarmy comments I’ve heard from leftists about Gates and Buffet certainly reflect their thoughts.

There is so much dysfunction in leftist philosophy that we could go on for a long time here. Is it any wonder that they want to restore voting rights for felons? Criminals vote overwhelmingly for leftist policies.”

“Arc...there is a serious push to let FELONS in Prison Vote...Know why?

I am sort of part of an organized Religion (Lutheran, Reformed Episcopalian..) but I stop listening when the religious leaders start talking about creating "heaven on earth". I am sorry this is a planet of MAN, not of GOD. It is nice to think we could all be lovey and sit around, but the sad fact is that there are those willing to work for stuff and those who are willing to sell their freedom for a false sense of "security".

I am as disgusted by Pat Robertson as I am One of the Wierd Beards in Humpacamelland. And I get a giggle when I hear the "MINISTERS" demanding the Islamic religious leaders speak out against their Fascists when I can quote without fear of contradiction dozens of times Christian leaders have espoused similar views and NEVER been called on it from the Christian Pulpit.”

“I just find it inconceivable that anyone, but especially progressives, can think that the 2nd amendment is for militias only. Are any of the other rights guaranteed for a group only?

I came to realize for some time now that politics is the new religion and it’s ten times more controlling and manipulative than religion. The thing I like about my religion is that it teaches a moral code for personal conduct. It’s not a congregational adherence type of thing. We don’t all get together and decide as a huge group what rules we believe in and what’s OK to ignore now. As long as each one of us concentrates on our own person conduct the whole will take care of itself.”

“Agreed!!!!

But government is a religion to some. It is actually a religion that these people can control and manipulate GOD (GOVERNMENT) as they wish. If they want "GOD" to okay child molestation because it is "natural" in their sick opinion....they can.

The real GOD does not bend to our needs rather we learn to change our lives to come more in line with his plan.”

“Nigal, the way I understand the English language, the Second Amendment guarantees “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms.” Militia is just a term used to describe citizens who wish to organize in a lawful manner. NOWHERE does it say that a citizen must be a member of a militia. You know this. I know this. The left just tries to confuse the issue with illogic. Like spoiled children, they use anything they can to get their way.

I cannot understand how the leftists have managed to justify taking away any citizen’s right to keep and bear arms. I’m no lawyer, but I don’t even understand how it can be legal. San Francisco tried to ban weapons and it was shot down in the courts.




I hear ya, XL. I’m a reformed Episcopalian myself.

Leftists try to make fun of folks who believe in absolutes. They describe people who believe in absolutes as viewing the world in black and white. Although they have some sort of disconnect when they don’t see their own belief in absolutes. They absolutely believe they know what is best. They absolutely believe that if you don’t agree with them then you must be inferior (greedy, a racist, ignorant,…). They absolutely believe they must have strong central government in order to control all sorts of behavior, including economic behavior.

Social Security is no longer a “safety net” for our poorest. It’s become a mainstream pension plan. I would love to know how many leftists live within their means during their working lives, investing for their future, in order not to be a burden on society when they retire? How many leftists do you believe will forego Social Security benefits so that the neediest among us can have a true “safety net” as it was first conceived?

Leftists don’t believe in absolutes because they don't want to play by existing rules. They want to keep changing the rules to suit their current feelings. They want to make the world in their own image.

I live in an overwhelmingly Democratic Party city. The rudeness of the drivers here is the subject of many letters to the editor. Statistically most of these rude drivers are Democrats. They are selfish, self-centered, impatient, and willing to sacrifice the safety of others in order to arrive at their destination a couple of minutes early. This wouldn’t be a hypocritical thing if they weren’t constantly accusing “conservatives” of being selfish.




There is a basic difference between my philosophy and those on the left. I don’t believe I have a right to tell them how to live their lives as long as they are not endangering others. They believe it is their right to use government to force me to live according to their views.




"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master."

C. Sallustius Crispust


“In the end more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free.”

Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

last edited: 7/18/06 2:54:06 PM”

“You sound like a happy man.”

“Good points arc. I think the more people are given to control the more they flurish.

I went to BassPro this weekend and handled a Kimber .45. Damn it was so sweet but the $1000 price was a bit much. I'm convinced there aren't any good .45 compacts for less than $800. I may just may trade up to a XD compact.

The salesman was a S&W man and was raving about the new S&W 40. It has a cool safety if someone tries to grab your gun you can just dump the mag and the gun locks up and won't fire the round in the chamber. The only problem I can see with this safety is that, well, if you dump the mag out the gun locks up and won't fire the round in the chamber. LOL!”

“An 11-year-old East Brunswick boy who fatally shot his friend last month was surrounded by guns.

In the East Brunswick townhouse where the boy lived with his father and grandmother, investigators discovered a cache of 98 firearms, nearly all unsecured, authorities said. In the bedroom he shared with his father, police found four rifles and 21 handguns, five of which were loaded.

Middlesex County authorities said yesterday the boy's easy access to weapons led to the June 28 shooting death of Alexander Khoudiakov, 12.

The boy's father, Michael Guerriero, 46, and grandmother, Josephine Guerriero, 72, who also lives in the townhouse, were charged yesterday with endangering the welfare of a child for failing to secure the firearms from Guerriero's son, Alexander and another 9-year-old boy who was also in the house. Both adults also were charged with fourth-degree possession of a large capacity ammunition magazine.

The boy, identified by authorites as "MG" because he is a juvenile, was charged yesterday with aggravated assault and aggravated manslaughter.

Middlesex County Prosecutor Bruce Kaplan said the boy told police he did not know the gun was loaded.

"There was no evidence of intent to cause the death, but he acted recklessly by intentionally pulling the trigger," Kaplan said in explaining the charges.

Kaplan said the shooting occurred when the boy pulled out a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson from his father's closet, held it 6 to 12 inches from Alexander's face and, believing the weapon was unloaded, pulled the trigger. The bullet pierced Alexander's eye and severed his brain stem, killing him instantly, Kaplan said. Josephine Guerriero was home at the time of the shooting, but Michael Guerriero was working at a restaurant on Route 22 in Bridgewater.

http://www.nj.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-7/1152770685110840.xml”

“From Today's Opinonjournal.com


"Of Course You Realize This Means War
"A 46-year-old man is accused of assaulting his wife with a carrot, causing her to lose sight in one eye," reports the Associated Press from Monroe, Conn.:

Pamela Vecsey, 46, underwent six outs [sic] of surgery after being hit in the left eye with the vegetable Saturday night, but doctors were not able to restore her vision, prosecutor Stephanie Damiani said.

The couple was arguing when Roderick Vecsey tossed the carrot, Damiani said.

It is a scandal that thanks to the carrot lobby, Americans--even the mentally ill, convicted criminals and stalkers--are able to buy these dangerous weapons without so much as a license or background check. We need carrot control! It's the only way to deal with crime at its roots."


LOL...if you outlaw carrots only rabbits will be outlaws or something like that.....”

“"investigators discovered a cache of 98 firearms, nearly all unsecured,"

These dumbasses clearly lacked proper gun education. They should be found guilty. It's as dumb as leaving hand grenades laying around the house.

Rule #1: You must control your fire arms at all times. If it is with you control it. If it is not with you you MUST not allow anyone else to gain control of it.”

“Meangreen, I'm only about 2 hours from Indi. I go to my brother's in Plainfield all the time.”
Nigal
4:07:06 PM
7/08/06


NO kidding? I'm only about 45 minutes NW of there. Next time you are out this way give me a holler! We'll have a beer or something at least! You should get you bro to show you where Plainfield Shooting Supply is. Great people. Bob Cheek and his wife have done great things for 4H shooting sports. Every year they come through with donations, and deep discounts for the program, and also spend some cash at our annual friends of the NRA banquet. Oh ya, his wife is a single stack world champion. So don't pi$$ off the lady with the 1911. LOL!”

“Why yes, Nimble, I am usually a very happy man. I’m not so happy when someone tries to force me to obey their will. You know, people like criminals and democrats. But I repeat myself.




I think I can find some reviews on compact 45s, Nigal. I'll see if I haven't thrown the magazines out.




What a concerned, and knowledgeable, citizen violin appears to be! Anybody placing bets as to whether someone like violin would actually put his life in harm's way for his country? Nah, people like that just want to use this country to take care of themselves and to force others to comply with a lifestyle that is acceptable to themselves.

You know, unselfish patriots.




From the NRA Safety Rules:

Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.”

“Arc...the really sad thing is that there a thousands of men and women who would put themselves in harm's way to save violin.

Now do these safety rules relate to Carrots and other vegetables?”

“...and fresh fruit! Don't forget that famous Monty Python sketch.


As much as I would hope that everyone follows proper safety procedures, what someone does with a cucumber, in the privacy of their own home, is none of my business.”

“well, i don't know about carrots from firsthand experience, but I've seen some mighty tricky peppers in my day.”

“The 1939 case of United States vs. Miller effectively banned sawed-off shotguns and the reasoning was this:

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."

Now back then, the Court was twisting the language to ban non-military standard firearm. Today however, couldn't this precedent be used to argue that a "well regulated militia" using "ordinary military equipment" should be allowed to own FULL-AUTO AR15/M16 and the like. Furthermore, that being restricted to (obsolete) bolt action, lever, semi-auto, etc. represents a violation of the precendent that "its use could contribute to the common defense" since owning anything less than full-auto would render one grossly inadequate when facing off a threat armed with full-auto.”

“LOL>..Arc I knew someone would follow this vegetable line to the ultimate conclusion....”

“You can own fully auto weapons longlosthiker. Ya just gotta get a permit. Unless you are wanting a heavier weapon such as a SAW or M60 I really see no real advantage of having fully automatic weapons when used agaist, say an AK-47. I'd put a semi auto M4A1 against a full auto AK any day.”

“Full auto is a waste of ammunition. Even the Army went from the Full Auto M-16 to the three shot burst a few years ago because everyone was going to full auto.

Suppressive fire is ONLY needed in an "over run" situation, thankfully there is little threat of that right now.”

“Suppressive fire is ONLY needed in an "over run" situation, thankfully there is little threat of that right now.”

Full auto is helpful when laying in ambush, when being ambushed, when raiding a fixed position, when defending a fixed position, taking out light or thin skinned vehicles, its a necessity. For an individuals rifleman the drawback is the bulk of ammo that you must carry. The army's main motive of dumping the auto and going with burst was refocusing on shot placement. Even the three rd burst at ranges of 100yds would crawl the target substantially, you'd better start aiming low.

Our standard squad had 3 Car-15's (full auto 1 for the sqd ldr and 2 team ldrs), 2 SAW's (full auto, 1 per team) and an M-60 (full auto per sqd, 3 per platoon) plus 2 M16/203 combos (one per team). That was for 10-12 guys.

Heck as an RTO I was also an automatic rifleman cause I had a CAR-15. Kinda strange mix.

For civilian application full auto is silly.”

“Good one Birch...however...with my spotter and an M-14 with a pretty nice scope I broke up an ambush by a signifcanlty larger aggressor unit.
There is something very disconcerting about hearing ONE shot and ONE guy goes down. The best part is these guys would stand up to SEE where the shot came from....(MILES SYSTEM by the way).”