Thank Clinton for a speedy victory in Ir aq

“Thank Clinton for a speedy victory in Iraq

5/13/2003

HILE IT is understandable that President George W. Bush and his secretary of defense are receiving plaudits for the relatively swift military victory in Iraq, the fact of the matter is that most of the credit for the successful military operation should go to the Clinton administration.


As Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld noted, the battle plan that led to the American success was that of General Tommy Franks, an Army officer appointed to head the Central Command by the Clinton administration. More important, the military forces that executed that plan so boldly and bravely were for the most part recruited, trained, and equipped by the Clinton administration.

The first Bush defense budget went into effect on Oct. 1, 2002, and none of the funds in that budget have yet had an impact on the quality of the men and women in the armed services, their readiness for combat, or the weapons they used to obliterate the Iraqi forces.

Given the way that Bush and his surrogates disparaged Clinton's approach to the military in his 2000 campaign, this is ironic. The president and his advisers claimed that Clinton had diminished the armed forces' fighting edge by turning them into social workers and sending them too often on ''useless'' nation-building exercises. These same people also claimed that Clinton had so underfunded the military that it was in a condition similar to that which existed on the eve of Pearl Harbor.

Throughout the summer and fall of 2000, Vice President Dick Cheney summed up the Bush team's sentiment toward what Clinton had done to the military: He went around the country telling the military and the nation that help and additional support were on the way for our troops.

Anyone examining the facts would know that these claims were bogus. The Clinton administration actually spent more money on defense than had the outgoing administration of the first President Bush. The smaller outlays during the first Bush administration were developed and approved by Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell, who were then serving as secretary of defense and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff respectively.

Clinton's last secretary of defense, William Cohen, turned over to Rumsfeld a defense budget that was higher in real terms than what James Schlesinger had bequeathed to Rumsfeld when he took over the Pentagon for the first time in 1975 at the height of the Cold War.

Not only did Clinton spend a large amount of money on the military; most of it was spent wisely. In the first Persian Gulf War, less than 10 percent of the bombs and missiles that were dropped on Iraq were smart weapons. That number jumped to 70 percent during this war because the Clinton administration ordered large quantities of upgraded munitions that made these ''dumb'' weapons smart. The Clinton administration also invested heavily in the technology that gave the on-scene commanders a much more vivid picture of the battlefield than a decade ago.

It was the Clinton administration that improved the accuracy of the Tomahawk cruise missile and upgraded the Patriot missile, which was so much more effective this time than the original Patriot in the first Persian Gulf War. The Clinton administration also kept the quality of our military personnel high by closing the gap between military and private sector compensation, a gap that the first Bush administration had allowed to grow, and improving retirement and health benefits for military retirees.

So if this latest military effort warrants a victory parade for the troops, let's insist that Clinton and his secretaries of defense are invited. They deserve it. And if the Bush administration wants to learn how to rebuild the nation of Iraq, they might ask their predecessors how to go about it.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/133/editorials/Thank_Clinton_for_a_speedy_victory_in_Iraq+.shtml
Lawrence J. Korb”

“No one's posting here because this doesn't fit into the

"53 days to take waco

21 days to take iraq"

Chant.

Four legs goooood two legs baaad.”

“LOL!



BTW: Hile = While - probably a bad cut and paste

also the url seems to not work... I think becuase after a few days you have to pay to get a Globe piece on line.”

“One reason I posted this is because I was amazed at the "official" turn around on what happened to the military under Clinton.

In 2000 and early 2001, the military was in shambles because of mismanagement under Clinton. Later in 2001 (with the attack on Afghanistan and the first talk of war with Iraq) I was hearing about how much better the US army was than in 1991. I questioned this, including on TT... but it didn't seem like anyone with clout or media access was willing to connect the dots and say that the military must have been strengthened in significant ways under Clinton.

While I never liked Clinton, the reference to his secretary of Defense, William Cohen - reminds me that Clinton went far further towards trying to have some real bipartisanshp than any other President in the last 20 years.”

“Pres. Klinton was still a kuny....so was her husband.


Yeah yeah I know. Dirty conservative name caller! Guilty as charged.”

“If you look back at the second debate between Gore and Bush, you will find that Tim Russert asked Bush about each aspect of the Clinton administration's foreign policy. This included the situations in Bosnia, Haiti, Somalia, Northern Ireland, The Mideast, the former Soviet Union, N. Korea and probably one or two more that escape me at the moment. But, the point being is that Bush was asked to agree or disagree on the way the administration was handling these situations. Bush gave approval to ALL these things, except one. I believe it was the situation in Haiti that he differed on. This is not opinion, simply because I heard this out of Bush's mouth with my own ears, so why do some of you talk like Clinton was the worst thing that ever happened to this country? His presidency was nowhere near as nightmarish as the picture you paint. A lot of good things happened during those years. But, there are those that seem to think that finger pointing and playing the blame game from an armchair is positive thinking. I disagree...”

“Thanks UU that was a very funny post and wodnerfully ironic. That bahstuhd Clinton allowed people to act on the possibility that Anthrax could pose a problem for the US... And now, even Bush, with great publicitity has taken the Anthrzx vaccine.”

“What's more impressive than the name calling Mr. Nigal is the abscence of ideas. Do you disagree with Korb's column?”

“Yes, but I couldn't find the proper words for what I wanted to say in a cut and paste.

8P”

“While I never liked Clinton, the reference to his secretary of Defense, William Cohen - reminds me that Clinton went far further towards trying to have some real bipartisanshp than any other President in the last 20 years."
pedxing


omg dood, you got to be kidding me.

if not for the republican revolution, the military would have been desimated even worse. it is widely known that the military in general did not like clinton. wonder why? his dislike of the military is no secret. you act like he went out there and made those bombs himself. all appropriations are approved by congress. cohen was ok...better than most of the rest of his staff...”

“I almost never cut and paste... and I've talked about this before hand.

"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
John F. Kennedy”

“A lot of good things happened during those years."
~treebeard

Alot of good things happen every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every year here - this is America.

"Yes, but I couldn't find the proper words for what I wanted to say in a cut and paste."
~Nigal

LOL!”

“Oh Man! I'm not awake yet! I thought this thread was

CLINTON IN A SPEEDO”

“Well Strat: What this shows is a credible person with strong evidence showing what I had said a while ago... that Bush and his allies were grossly misrepresenting what happened to the military preparedness under Clinton. I think the evidence speaks for itself.

I'm sure Clinton doesn't deserve all the credit - I don't know how much. What is clear is that there was a pretty systematic and successful misrepresentation of the record.”

“Wasn't trying to dismiss your post Ped or claim you don't think for yourself like Viola. I always find your view more informed than most. The simple truth is I spend a lot of time on theological boards and spend a huge amount of time researching and studying scripture and it is worthwhile. By the time I get here to the political bs I don't have it in me to search and search for political information that is baised anyhow (weather left or right). I find that scriptural interpretation is far less messy and more easily understandable than political issues. LOL!

Bottom line, while I don't care what so and so says about politics or what others think of my polital views I have an addiction to insulting liberals. They are my favorite wind up toys. Does that make me a troll? 8)”

“This is becoming commonplace under the Bush administration. Slurs and slander are the order of the day whenever someone disagrees with them.

Look at Scott Ritter! Seems like he knew what he was talking about, now, doesn't it?”

“Yes and you are the bastion of neutrality and unbiased ness, right? The far left is as far out there as the far right. Both are screwy.”

“Nigal: While I aprreciate the honesty and the respect, I'd say that it frankly makes you part of the pattern of disconnect between thought and opinion that increases partisanship and ill-will and decreases independent thought. ('ll admit, the conservatives do not have a monopoly on this). Which is why I keep wanting to cut and past the JFK quote about too many people enjoying th comort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

PS: Then of course, it turns out that JFK was just another intern-f##king Democrat. Even if he did cut taxes, he would invade Cuba even though they had real nukes close to the US - cuzz of some wussy notion about the US not starting wars.

PS #2: On JFK: at least he had a real affair with her, instead of just getting head so he could pretend to himself and the world that it didn't really count.”

“LOL! I doubt the democrats have the market cornered on screwing interns. They just don't hide it well enough.

I didn't mean to say that I am totally ignorant of the issues or that I simply tow the party line. I just feel it's a waste of time that I don't have to go dig it all up and present it. Even when facts are presented the other side (both) simply attack it and post some other slanted piece to combat it.”

“Nobody else seems to slam Clinton on this, but it irritates me. He smokes pot, but he doesn't inhale. He has an continuing affair with an intern, but he doesn't f--k her, he avoids the draft, but he doesn't resist or dodge it. He tried to finesse everything.

"It is not your sin, but your meanness in sinning that cries to heaven." Nietzsche”

“I'm not accusing you of being hugely ignorant, but I do think people who keep expressing strong opinions owe to themselves and to others to actively engage with opinions, arguments and evidence which might contradict them.”

“Why do you say that no one else seems to slam Clinton on this? This is one of my biggest problems with him is that he is sleazy and dishonest in a very forthright way, like he is taunting us all. Like, "I can do all this and people will still support me, so all you Bible preachers can just go pound sand!" I have a real problem with dishonesty; I know that sometimes it is necessary in diplomacy and military efforts, but if we toss honesty and integrity out all together as a goal, we are teetering very close to an abyss as a species.”

“Clinton = Scum!”

“Da both of them!”

“Giving Clinton credit for winning this war while he publicly opposed it is hysterical.”

“Might as well throw my $ .02 in.
Yes Clinton had an affair and yes he denied it on national televison. Don't get me wrong I am not saying what he did is right (maybe it was after looking at Hillary) but he isn't the first President to have an affair and he won't be the last. The thing that everyone seems to get mad at is that he denied it on national TV.

Now tell me what man or woman is going to go on national TV and go heck yeah I laid her before he has a chance to talk to his family about it. We don't know if he had that chance or not.

How many of us guys 40+ would like to have a 20 something woman throw herself at you. Whether you did something or not at least it would have you thinking about it.

Like hikerchic asked "would you be turned off if some woman hit on you at a bar"...for some reason I doubt we would.”

“Bacpac - Korb isn't giving him credit for winning the war - but for how well prepared the US military was. I think Korb offers a pretty objective analyis.

Lyndy - its not for his dishonesty. Lot's of people smoke dope or have affairs and simply lie about it - but he pursued these vices with a level of self-deception. It's like he was careful to cross his fingers so it didn't count. He wanted to have it both ways.”

“I don't know Ped, self-deception as a defense against lying, is like the insanity defense for murder. I think he was pretending to self deceive.”

“The people who do not like Clinton will never admit that he did a decent job.

Good thread, pedxing. Thanks.”

“Bill Clinton had a decent 'job' done on him.

I don't buy into Ewker's logic. Common decency and dignity is not all that rare.”

“The weapon systems used in this war were developed during the Reagan era.

I give Clinton credit for NAFTA.

The thing I hated about Clinton, even when he was my Govenor he would never make a decision unless he ran polls and surveys first. The fact that he had no moral character was no surprise.

George Bush knows what he wants and he puts it out there. His leadership is not based on the latest poll. He makes a decision and does it. I like that in a leader.”

“Bill Clinton?

Smart Bomb, NO
Steath, NO
Patriot, NO
F16, NO
Marines? Hell NO.”

“Lyndy - I wasn't talking about a defense of Clinton either. I am appalled by his half-a$$ way of transgressing, how he holds things back half way (smokes but doesn't inhale... etc...)... his "mediocrity" in sinning.”

“The weapon systems used in this war were developed during the Reagan era

We were just holding back on them the first time through, right?”

“Bacpac - maybe part of the success of the Clinton upgrades is that they didn't try to make a big splash with new weapons systems - but instead upgraded the ones (like the Tomahawk and the Patriot) that were being used.

From the article, how do you refute Korb's claim:
Clinton's last secretary of defense, William Cohen, turned over to Rumsfeld a defense budget that was higher in real terms than what James Schlesinger had bequeathed to Rumsfeld when he took over the Pentagon for the first time in 1975 at the height of the Cold War.”

“For example - it turned out that the BushI missles used in Gulf WarI didn't work. The Clinton upgrades made them work.

Korb also points out, as is well known, that defense spending went up under Clinton.

Or are you going to try to dismiss the article as liberal democratic ranting?”

“"George Bush knows what he wants and he puts it out there. His leadership is not based on the latest poll. He makes a decision and does it. I like that in a leader."

Bush doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. He knows what his handlers tell him.

Apparently you like having an easily manipulated, puppet president.”

“Like Hitlery puppeted Bill.”

“JFK quote about too many people enjoying th comort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

PS: Then of course, it turns out that JFK was just another intern-f##king Democrat. Even if he did cut taxes, he would invade Cuba even though they had real nukes close to the US - cuzz of some wussy notion about the US not starting wars.

PS #2: On JFK: at least he had a real affair with her, instead of just getting head so he could pretend to himself and the world that it didn't really count."
pedxing


ped, what makes you think my opinions aren't thought out? i'll wager you that i think of these matters than almost anyone on here. it's my hobby. i drive 4,500 miles a month, lots of think time in there. so don't jsut dismiss opposing views as thoughtless ped. it could be that i actually believe the things i say. i really do think things through. i think it's the left that "feels" more than thinks.


now about the JFK balling the intern thing,,,,,,,i don't care if he got him some poontang , i really don't. hell, no wonder he was always smiling, lol. the thing about it is, he used air force jets to fly her all oover the friggin place to hook up with him. where'sa the outrage from the left, who is still ranting about bush landing on a carrier and "using" the military? that's the real issue here....



typical democratic hyprocrisy....”

“"... why do some of you talk like Clinton was the worst thing that ever happened to this country?"

Treebeard


It's very simple Treebeard. They parrot whatever hate speech the right-wing media machine pours into their heads.

Garbage in; garbage out.

In any propoganda effort, the first step is to harness the collective anxiety and refocus the emotions, primarily as hatred, blaming the current mallaise onto another person or persons. This process continues until they are completely dehumanized, then you put them on the trains to the deathcamps.

It's pure Goering.


And speaking of whom, here's a little copy&paste I'm sure The Boys will get a charge out of....

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

-- Hermann Goering (Nazi Minister of Propoganda), at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II”

“"George Bush knows what he wants and he puts it out there. His leadership is not based on the latest poll. He makes a decision and does it. I like that in a leader."

bacpac


Boy do they have YOU fooled.

"Bush Had a Junkie's Appetite for Polls: Bush often brags that he does not look at polls, but that is in part because he has Rove to do that for him. The two men delight in the game - a fact both the President and his staff go to great lengths to obscure. He had a junkie's appetite for the polling data: "Bush wanted to know the polling numbers," says Brooks Kochvar, campaign manager for new Indiana Congressman Chris Chocola. "It wasn't just the top line either. He wanted to know where the undecideds stood, and what was going on in depth in the polls.""

Reading Is Fundamental”

“tilt's head is spinning....”

“"Common decency and dignity is not all that rare."

bacpac
02:37:08 PM
05/16/03



"Come over here and suck on my phaedrus, little girl."

bacpac
02:57:05 PM
05/16/03”

“that was a good one, ya gotta admit...timing is everything”

“They were only 20 minutes apart fer chrissakes! LOL”

“i was talkin about your's [eyeroll]”

“Strat: This time the my remark was aimed at Nigal.

Nonetheless, I find that you repeatedly make statements about the facts that mirror innacurate spin - you don't seem to spend time investigating things for yourself.

You talk about what's reasonable, or what's widely known or what's outrageous, over-emotional or unbelievable, but you don't really look for the facts on your own and when you get called on it - you still avoid real investigation. What seems outrageous may just be what contradicts your unexamined prejudice.”

“Tilt that was a good one, lol.”

“You know, Ped, you make me feel bad. I lay into strat pretty hard sometimes for just that very thing, and then you turn around with a reasonable and comparatively gentle push, and I feel like I've been extraordinarily mean about it.

Strat, sorry if I've been too harsh, it's unintentional.”