Fatalities At Everest

“The numbers that die on Everest is about 12.5% of climbers.

Its easy for everyone to armchair on whether aid should have been rendered. How many of the above comentators have climbed a high altitude glaciated peak (Rainier)? A really high glaciated peak (Denali)? An extremely high glaciated peak (Everest)? At 4 miles above above sea level there there ain't much O2 to fuel the brain.

People solo Rainier, get hurt and die. Rescue at 14000 is difficult. Imagine twice that height. Everest has big time objective danger.

How practical is rescue someone from 28,000? shortroping? carry? It would be damn hard if not impossible. What are the chances the rescue will be succesful (HAPE, HACE)? What about danger to rescuers? In lifesaving (water) the rescuer does not endanger their life to the point of causing 2 fatalities (their own and victim)

BTW I have climbed multiple glaciated peaks in the Cascades, some solo. I also have had an unplanned nightime winter bivouac at 6600 with a 1 hour moonlight guided hike out (at 11 pm) to effect a rescue of a dehydrated and exhausted partner.”

“edoc, the 4:1 ratio I quoted was for actual summits, not just climbers. That was Krakouer data from his book, I hope he researched it before posting. It would be easy to check. There have been 190 or so deaths. That would mean that there should be 760 successful summits.”

“i am glad that it changed, because damn, I don't wanna be alone on Everest [if I ever would go].”

“damn that krakouer. It appears that through 2004 there have been 2249 summits and 186 deaths.

this is the quote from krakauer: "The statistics I quote at the end of the book are constant: for every four people who summit, one dies; for every 30 people who even attempt the mountain, one dies. Being a brilliant climber doesn't ensure your safety; as many brilliant climbers have died as stumblebums."”

“Quick look (google: deaths per everest summit)has ~775 summiters (25% of 3101) 1980-2002 with ~62 (1.8 % of 3101) deaths. Thats like 8%?? (If I did my math right)

All activity has, or doesn't have, objective danger. Its all about ones comfort zone and acceptance of risk. I solo hike in all conditions. My comfort zone is wide, as is my acceptance of risk. (But I do try to minimize my risk.)”

“That's it! I'm cancelling my climb up Everest!”

“I'm not even remotely capable of undertaking something of that magnitude, but I don't know if I could make a blanket statement affirming that the passers-by were justified in ignoring him. I also noticed that no one even mentioned the possibility of seeking help from the other climbers (40 passed him by?) to make a collective effort to do something to help him. I don't know the logistics of a venture of this sort and I don't profess to. But, if you can be that callous as to say, from your armchair, that you would be endangering yourself by aiding this man, you could, at least, entertain the thought that something could be done with the help of other climbers...”

“I am not justifying their actions. I am just saying they are all grown men and women on that mountain all capable of making their own decisions and that is the culture of the mountain. If you go up their without your own team of climbers (and I say team, not a group of clients) and are expecting others to help you when you get in a tight spot, then prepare to be dissappointed.



Krakauer, an experienced climber and probably no less respectfull of human life than anyone else on this board comments on the culture of Everest best in this quote:

"As for Krakauer's own sense of why things went so horribly wrong? "We had never climbed together, there was a disparity in strengths among us, so, wisely, we were taught to rely on the guide if things went wrong. Not only that, we were never ever roped together. Everyone climbed independently, at their own pace, which was good. But when you're roped to someone you develop this weird intimacy; every time you take a step, they have to take a step. You develop a bond that was just lacking on Everest. We weren't encouraged to look after our fellow clients and certainly not after the guides.

"And that's inexcusable to me. It's the thing that eats at me most. If I'd been up there with a bunch of friends, instead of guides and fellow clients, I can't imagine that I would have left [guide] Andy Harris up there in a storm when I clearly should have seen that he wasn't feeling well. And having gotten down to the South Col, I just wouldn't have crawled into my tent and into my sleeping bag without accounting for each of my partners. Climbing is a subculture that prides itself on the purity of its ideals. It has these weird rituals and rules that most people wouldn't understand. Some of it is kind of sick, because it idealizes boldness and risk-taking to such a degree. But its ideals about respecting your partner and about 'how you climb being more important than what you climb' are really good. I betrayed those ideals. For that I really beat myself up."”

“It was just a thought of mine, Hyway. I was just opening up the possibility that something could have been done with a bit more resourcefulness and teamwork. But, I am so out-of-the-loop when it comes to climbing, it would be wrong of me to exert any hint of expertise on the matter...”

“Folks take lessons, buy the latest gear and look down their noses at those in leather boots. It's become a status symbol. If you don't have the new, cool, color coordinated gear you somehow don't belong out there.

That's pretty accurate of most trailrats who think hiking marked, groomed footpaths is a real backcountry experience, too.”

“tree, I am not a climber, but I have read a lot about Everest. From what I gather, its just Everest where this callous attitude toward life is practiced.”

“Everest has become a tourist mountain. It's done for the ego, not because it calls to them.”

“Mutt, hate to say it but my stuff is coordinated...It is mine (LOL)....I love the COOLO clothing...heck if it ain't on sale...I usually don't
buy it.”

““Everest has become a tourist mountain. It's done for the ego, not because it calls to them.” Not in a postion to judge.

”But, if you can be that callous as to say, from your armchair, that you would be endangering yourself by aiding this man, you could, at least, entertain the thought that something could be done with the help of other climbers...”

I can say it and I'm not callous, I'm a realist. IT WAS -100. How many climbers were in shape to help this man? Was he salvageble? Could he walk? Were his feet frozen? Did he have such severe HAPE or HACE that it wouldn't matter what happened. Was he too far gone? Remember its 28,000 feet, over 5.5 miles, the stratosphere.

We weren't there, we are not in a position to make judgements. Maybe those 40 were in no shape or lacked the knowledge to help. Maybe they didn't care. Its easy for the media to press this story. We weren't there and the media wasn't there so we'll never know”

““Everest has become a tourist mountain. It's done for the ego, not because it calls to them.” Not in a postion to judge.

”But, if you can be that callous as to say, from your armchair, that you would be endangering yourself by aiding this man, you could, at least, entertain the thought that something could be done with the help of other climbers...”

I can say it and I'm not callous, I'm a realist. IT WAS -100. How many climbers were in shape to help this man? Was he salvageble? Could he walk? Were his feet frozen? Did he have such severe HAPE or HACE that it wouldn't matter what happened. Was he too far gone? Remember its 28,000 feet, over 5.5 miles, the stratosphere.

We weren't there, we are not in a position to make judgements. Maybe those 40 were in no shape or lacked the knowledge to help. Maybe they didn't care. Its easy for the media to press this story. We weren't there and the media wasn't there so we'll never know”

“I've been a mountaineer for over 35 years. I've trained folks who have gone on to become world class climbers, climbing Himalayan peaks among others.

I have risked my life several times to help someone on the mountain that was in trouble. My main partner has put herself at tremendous risk to save my life. I'll post the story later when I get home.

I also worked Mountain SAR for over 24 years. Many of the missions I was on were what we called, INS missions (Interfering with natural selection).

It might be my armchair, but it's been around a bit :-)”

“40+ people and no one could help? Bull#&%!$. No Mountaineers/Guides/Sherpas? Bull #&%!$ing#&%!$. they were more worried about summiting and Money than saving a Human

Royal Navy Everest rescue last night - hour by hour account
17:24 p.m. EDT May 23, 2003
The Royal Navy have been updating hour by hour through the day on the rescue of climber Conan Harrod (Adventure Peaks exp) May 21, 8.30 AM (Nepal time).

An American climber slipped and fell on the fixed rope, pulling off a sherpa who finally pulled of Conan who broke his leg on 8500 m. Conan's fellow climber, Walid, was at 8600 meters when he found out.

He and Madew, another climber from the same expedition, aborted their summit push and climbed down to help their mate. From there, 3 Navy boys, along with sherpas from three different expeditions carried the climber on a stretcher through the night, from 8500 meters (only 100 meters lower than the summit of K2) all the way down to Base camp.

Check out the hourly account of last nights tremendous human feat on Everest

http://www.mounteverest.net/story/RoyalNavyEverestrescuelastnighthourbyhouraccountMay232003.shtml”

“ can say it and I'm not callous, I'm a realist. IT WAS -100. How many climbers were in shape to help this man? Was he salvageble? Could he walk? Were his feet frozen? Did he have such severe HAPE or HACE that it wouldn't matter what happened. Was he too far gone? Remember its 28,000 feet, over 5.5 miles, the stratosphere

This is why I prefaced my statements with the fact that I am not even at novice level when it comes to mountaineering. Mostly what I was posing was the question, "Would it have been possible, practically and logistically, for some of the others to band together to help?" It may not have been possible at all. And, admittedly, I cannot answer that question on my own.
The point about being callous was more directed at the "He knew what he was doing. Tough sh_t" tone that I saw earlier in the thread...

I wouldn't second guess experienced guys like yourselves. MtnSteve won my respect for a few things he did a few years back. Edoc, I don't know much about you, but it seems you know a heck of a lot more about this than I do...
last edited: 5/25/06 1:05:21 PM”

“Given the calliber of people speaking out, I have to think Hillary had an important point.

Check this out from another great Mountain Climber (other interesting links towards the bottom of this page):

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=3297”

“Ped, the link isn't working, can you give it another shot?”

“mtnsteve, it worked for me. Just takes a while to load”

“"He knew what he was doing, tough #&%!$" was my statement and I stand by it. Read pedxing's link or Sir Edmond Hillary's statement and you have to face the fact that right or wrong, the culture of Everest has become every man for himself unless you come with a team of mountaineers you know you can depend on. A solo climber choosing to attempt to climb without oxygen in the death zone is a thrill seeker. He risked his life foolishly, why should others throw theirs away with him.

BTW, he was above 8000m if I read it correctly. The british Navy guy was at 6500 m. Thats only as high as the first camp after base camp you have 2 or 3 more higher camps to go through before you even jump off for the peak. its a whole different world at 8000m than it is at 6500m”

“Ewker...it's working, thanks.


I'm not going to argue with this.



"They are not climbers

“In my opinion, solidarity doesn’t exist on Everest. And the reason is, that most of the climbers attempting that mountain are not experienced Himalaya mountaineers," he said. "I wouldn’t even consider many of them climbers.”

“Too often people go to Everest without knowing what it is like above 8000m. They pay huge amounts of money – and they don’t pay for a climb, but for a summit. Thus, reaching the summit becomes their first and only priority. In order to get the summit, they will use all the resources they can afford: Sherpas, bottled O2, camps and ropes previously fixed, etc… Up there, everybody focus on their own progress only, selfishly pursuing their goal."

"They don’t care for the rest.””

“I'd like to think I'd have tried to help.”

“““Everest has become a tourist mountain. It's done for the ego, not because it calls to them.”

Everest Calls To Me!

I will tell you, I went to Nepal and trekked to Base Camp and climbed up a little rock called Kala Pattar which is 18,100ft. This is as close to climbing the mountain as I think I ever want to get.

Some of you will say trekking and climbing are two separate animals and I agree. But people's behavior at altitude is universal. I have helped several people get down from altitude who didn't have the sense or wits to do it on their own at the expense of my own adventure.

Steve knows me and knows my desires and why I climb. I will tell you no summit, view, or ego boost would get me to walk past someone who needs help. The mountain will always be there as it has for 100's of years to return to later.”

“(Posted this on mtnsteve's thread, too)

Courage? Sentimentality? Bravery? or just plain foolish? Seems to me all hikers and climbers have to realize the risks of their trips, and either plan accordingly or be willing to accept the consequences. In David Sharp's case he was climbing solo at 28000ft. Here's what I posted on another BB more related to climbing:

Any of you guys familiar with the Caneleta and the short summit ridge on Aconcagua's normal route? (In 1995)Friends and I came across a lone climber sitting at the top of the Canaleta. We thought he was waiting for us to clear out before heading down so he wouldn't kick rocks down on us. We said "HI" as we went by and thought he was speaking in some foriegn language (eastern european?) when he waved and responded.

After summiting and coming back, he was still sitting there. Uh Oh! He didn't resist when we got him to a standing position. We short roped him and dragged him back to high camp. An hour later, after some water and food, he was fine and speaking in (the Queens)English. He spent the night with us (thankfully the weather was mild) and we all went down the next day. He never remembered a thing about his summit day.

Points being:

At that altitude, we had no idea he was in trouble when we were going up. On Everest, that same thing could have happened with those passing David Sharp.

We were the last group heading for the top that day, and the rest of the summiting groups probably thought he was OK, too. If not for being the last persons coming down, and his odd responses, we probably would have walked by him ourselves thinking he was with another group.

Considering how much tougher Everest would be, and the effects on everyone at altitudes above 8000 meters, its not hard for me to image groups of somewhat lucid climbers heading to and from the summit simply passing Sharp while he was sitting in the snow if he gave any type of decent acknowledgement to their salutations. None of us will probably ever know what really happened, and I wouldn't fault anyone else who was there on those days. Tragic, but that's what can happen (even with the best planning) when you're in the outdoors.””

“Sandyann...you have good heart ;-)

How did training go?”

“Steve - I thought the climb went poorly as I was laggng behind. Then, I realized I was hiking with 23year olds. And we did it very quickly. So what I thought was slow, was really still a very fast pace for me.

We are headed up to Shasta on June 10th. I do not know the exact route but we are doing the side with more glaciers. Our leader has done it numerous times and we are feeling as comfortable as we can.

My training with the personal trainer is going well. He is focusing on my legs and trying to build up the strength. Lots of lunges, squats, and presses. I have been using the handicapped stall regularly now. TMI, I know, but I am hoping it will pay off in July. I will have a better idea on Shasta.”

“hyway - the guy with the broken leg was at 8500m not 6500

Tell me: How many Sherpa's might have passed him? How affected are they by the Altitude? Can a Sherpa, or experienced guide, tell a climber is in trouble without all the extra clues we would need?
last edited: 5/25/06 11:33:16 PM”

“BM, I'm sorry I misread the post. From another article it says the man with the broken leg was brought down 200m to camp 4 where the Navy team began their efforts to take the two of them down to base camp.

After 6 weeks climbing and acclimatising in the Himalayas, the Royal Navy expedition was just days away from the summit. Then disaster struck. News came that a climber on another expedition had broken a leg - a serious injury at the best of times, but life-threatening when you're 8,500 metres up Everest. With the help of a fellow-climber, the injured man had managed to struggle 200 metres down to Camp VI. But now his helper, Peter Madew, an Australian, was suffering from dehydration, snowblindness and frostbite and urgently needed help himself.



Camp 4 was where Krakour, Brukreev and the other survivers from the 2003 disaster retreated too when they escaped from death.

[i]”

“Others might have covered these points, but reading the recent stories at mounteverest.net, I learned a few interesting things:



1) There has been lots of bad behavior on the mountain. There have been multiple incidents of people stealing other people's cahes of food and equipment - really inexcusable given the dangers.
This is mentioned in the story of Vitor Negrete's death at:http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?
2) Someone aparently did make significant efforts to help Sharp: http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2112
3) Sharp was part of an expedition, not solo.”

“On a different board, one member's by line contains a quote that this thread has made more significant to me.

“"We're not gonna get rid of anybody. We're gonna stick together, just like it used to be. When you side with a man, you stay with him. And if you can't do that, you're like some animal, you're finished. We're finished. All of us."

Pike Bishop”

“ok, I think the problem here is that too many people are dying or in need of rescue right now on everest. here is an article only about Sharp where his own parents don't blame others for not helping him. It also states that he was solo climbing and that he was attempting to do the last push without bottled oxygen.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article571683.ece”

“Pike Bishop? Was he with the Donner party?”

“Hwy - Your link said with 1/2 the usual amount of oxygen. Accounts of what he was doing where he stopped had him struggling with his oxygen equipment.

I guess I'm seeing mixed messages on whether he was solo or part of a group, perhaps he was part of an expedition - but wanted to do the summit day solo. From the everest website:

"On May 16, Vitor received bad news at arrival in C2, on his summit bid: David Sharp, a British member of the expedition outfitted by Asian Trekking and including the Brazilians died on the mountain."

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2069”

“This is just about the strangest story I've ever read. With all those people summiting, there must have been a human chain up and down the mountain and only one person stopped to help. That's just unreal.”

“have you ever seen a video of people summiting everest. They take a 6 inch step then stop to rest. Then take another 6 inch step like they are carrying a studebaker on their back. Most of that chain are amatuers who couldn't even climb past base camp without the assistance of their guides and sherpas.

14 people have died on Everest just this season. I can only imagine that number is going to grow higher with the attitude that has taken over up there.”

“Gemini, I think if you came along a stranded climber on Mt. Everest, you would be able to move on if you could not help them AND the person should ask you to leave them, because to stay would only give them company as they died and they would probably die first if there was a problem, so you'd then be left alone, so what's the point?”

“I could never walk by a dying climber, that's just completely against my personality. sorry. Yes, I rather would not climb everest if I save someones life. call my stupid.

or did I missunderstand you? Really, I have no clue what you just said
last edited: 5/26/06 2:03:52 PM”

“I think she said that the other person would die first, then you would die alone leaving your kids without a mother.”

“This topic reminds me of one that came up in an ethics class while in college. We were asked if someone's life were in danger, i.e. someone was drowning, or a building was on fire, would we try to save them even if it meant possible harm to our self. Out of fifteen people, I was the only one in the room who felt it was my duty to do whatever I could to save someone.

Everyone said that I would probably think twice before jumping in and it is easy to say that we would when we were not in that situation. I found it interesting that I was the only one who would. Everyone else said it was not their moral or humanitarian obligation to risk their lives for someone else.

It really speaks to how differently we view things based on our own perspective.”

“I guess the real problem is that it's become such a pig #&%!$ up there that nobody can tell who is with who.

The guy who broke his leg posts on one of the UK boards and successfully summited this year.

Interestingly the guy that fell on him and broke his leg offered no assistance and has never been in touch with him to even check on him.”

“Gemini, I think if you came along a stranded climber on Mt. Everest, you would be able to move on if you could not help them AND the person should ask you to leave them, because to stay would only give them company as they died and they would probably die first if there was a problem, so you'd then be left alone, so what's the point?”
lipstick hiker
2:48:09 PM
5/26/06

Your party puts a rope around his ass and drag him down the Mountain.

or, to be more precise:

I would think a Party, which would probably include a Sherpa or two, would recognize the person needs help. the Party would then abandon their summit bid and, as a team, help the stranded person down.

Once again, I am assuming those were humans that passed him by on their way to "Glory". I'm sorry I keep forgetting it was otherwise.”

“And I want to know what Doctor determined this Man was beyond help and when? And did they put a little sticky note on his head that he was "beyond help"?

Give me a #&%!$ing break.”

“No, I don't want to leave my kids, but I also would not want to leave a dying climber. I mean, WTF...how can you even think like that?

I am not gonna argue with any of you about this. Maybe it's a bad call on my end, but that's how I feel. #&%!$, maybe I'll react completey different once the altitude got to me up there. Who knows!!!

Point is, I hope I hope whoever climbs with me will help me like I would help them.

[in my dreams of course, 'cause i'll never have the $$$ to climb everest]”

“Just because you're climbing the tallest mountain on Earth, it should not make you less human. What a bunch of selfish @#$%@&!'s.”

“bear, "you would be able to move on if you could not help them". No sense in two people dying or not achieving your goal to summit if the story is correct where the man was beyond help.

I think it's morally correct to help someone in need, but if it will endanger your own life, then that's a judgement call. If you risk your life to help another person, then you are a hero.”

“Yes. A tourist would have a difficult time saving someone. but everyone seems to be avoiding the obvious(?):

Sherpas can move up there. Mountaineers can move up there. And There are two rescues posted on this thread involving rescues in the "Death Zone".

I found them in no time. Sorry. I can not accept over 40 people passed by this man and "no one" could help him.

It's complete and utter bull#&%!$.
last edited: 5/26/06 6:50:49 PM”

“...but if it will endanger your own life, then that's a judgement call.

I think what we have here is not so much a case of endangering one's own life to help him, but more so of endangering one's chance at summitting. I think the guy's main problem, if I read correctly, was he was out of oxygen. A group of climbers could've shared oxygen as they assisted him down to lower altitude. But that summit, oh, the summit.”