Fatalities At Everest

“SYDNEY, Australia (Reuters) -- An Australian mountaineer left for dead near the summit of Mt. Everest has been found alive after spending a night out on the world's highest mountain, but remains severely ill with frostbite and altitude sickness.

Lincoln Hall, 50, was initially reported to have died of cerebral edema, or swelling of the brain, as he descended the mountain, according to expedition leader Alexander Abramov, on internet site www.mounteverest.net.


However, climbers ascending the next day discovered Hall still alive near the peak and launched an immediate rescue operation.

Hall's survival comes a week after British climber David Sharp died after getting into difficulties on his descent from the 8,850 metre (29,035 foot) summit. Several groups of climbers passed Sharp but did not stop to help.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/australia.everest.reut/index.html”

“hey, I am not saying whats happening is right. I am saying its what happening. Go ahead and climb everest and get yourself in trouble and start screaming how you think its just wrong for people to walk past you and see how far it gets you. For me, even if I was in any kind of shape to Climb Everest I wouldn't do it. Too many peeps die on that mountain.

14 people have died this year. 14!!! If that was America they'd close the damn mountain.”

“Nice Link, Tango. Just saw the Story on the News.

Another climber pronounced dead by Morons. And rescued in the Death Zone, no less.

Like I said, no excuse for the 40+ #&%!$s.”

“bm I agree with you 110%.”

“I would NEVER climb Everest. I am a helper by nature (EMT, Deputy Sheriff) there is NO WAY in heaven I could walk past someone in trouble, even if it was a risk to my own. I've risked my life for people I didn't know multiple times before and would do it again.”

“Tango is a good person :)”

“Buck, point well made!

How come no one is bringing up that a climber was just left for dead again and then he made it down the mountain? This must be a new situation, because I believe he was with a group and from Australia. Anyone have a link to that story? I've been out planning hikes and hiking, so I didn't get the whole story.”

“Thank you SC. LS, that's my link, it's about the 2nd guy that was left.”

“Tango, okay, I just checked out your second link. I had thought it was about the first climber that was left for dead.

Geez, this 2nd situation is worst than the first, leaving a man for dead when he's alive!!!! I don't think I'd be going on any expeditions led by that guy who was the group leader or anyone from that company. Doesn't anyone know how to check for a pulse????”

“Well I agree that no one should ever be "left for dead" or you should never ever walk past someone in need, but as far as the death toll goes, in no way can you blame the mountain. I've always had the strong goal of standing on top of the world, and I still intend on trying. Anyone with the intentions on climbing Everest should be well aware that the skill of climbing can only help so much, and anyone is sucseptible to being injured/killed. Frankly one must come to terms with mountaineering, and understand death is not un-common.”

“Jaynewallllllllll, from the Everest movie, it seems even people who feel they are ready for that climb just can't make it sometimes. Bad weather, tough climb etc. just take their toll on some climbers.

I don't know. I think anyone who does Everest should be prepared to not come back although I don't think anyone really thinks that when they start out or why would they do it? Everest is one tough mountain to climb with many pitfalls and nothing is guaranteed in life, with that combination, I would not assume I'd be making it back without any a doubt. I don't think anyone can.”

“Everest is not like every other mountain. Are there other mountains where a line forms to summit. The Hillary Step can only be climbed one person at a time. That slows those coming up, and god forbid, prevents anyone from coming down from the summit if someone gets stuck on it.”

“http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/sharp06012006.htm

One team passed him on the way up, and on the way down. He's even on film stating his name and the team he was with.”

“�effectively dead�= everyone is gonna let you die.”

“they had to unclip to get around him? i guess we can rule out that the other climbers didn't know something was wrong. before all of this i would have thought Everest climbers were a group of people who are automatically bonded just from being at the top of the world together.”

“I'm not qualified to have an informed opinion, but I do suggest you guys read Krakauer's Into Thin Air.”

“or The Climb by brukreev (the russian dude who went out to bring some of the lost ones in) The two books make a great set”

“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13211474/

Updated: 6:10 p.m. CT June 8, 2006
KATMANDU, Nepal - Just days after a British climber was left to die near Mount Everest�s summit, an American guide abandoned his second bid to stand on top of the world so he could rescue a mountaineer mistakenly given up for dead.

Not only did Daniel Mazur not scale the world�s highest peak from the northern side, he also failed to get his two paying clients to the top.

�It was very disappointing for me to miss my chance at the summit, but even more that I could not get my job done,� Mazur, of Olympia, Wash., told The Associated Press upon returning to Nepal�s capital, Katmandu, on Thursday.

Mazur, his two clients and a Sherpa guide were just two hours from the 29,035-foot peak on the morning of May 26 when they came across 50-year-old Lincoln Hall, who was left a day earlier when his own guides believed he was dead.

�I was shocked to see a guy without gloves, hat, oxygen bottles or sleeping bag at sunrise at 28,200 feet height, just sitting up there,� said Mazur, who scaled Everest once before, from the southern side, in 1991.

Mazur said Hall�s first words to him were: �I imagine you are surprised to see me here.�

Mazur said he knew Hall was OK because he was not crying for help and still had a sense of humor.

Mazur�s team spent the next four hours pulling Hall away from the slopes, giving him bottled oxygen, food and liquids.


They also radioed the base camp to tell Hall�s surprised team he was still alive.

While Mazur�s team was busy assisting Hall, two Italian climbers walked past them toward the summit. When asked to help, they claimed they did not understand English. On his return to base camp, Mazur discovered they did.

�I don�t know why they didn�t want to stop to help,� Mazur said. �I hope when I am there, in that state, and someone passes me ... I hope it is someone like me.�

Hall�s rescue came just days after David Sharp, 34, died May 15, about 1,000 feet into his descent from the summit. Dozens of people walked right past him, unwilling to risk their own ascents.

By the time some Sherpas showed up to help get Hall back to base camp, Mazur, his clients and his own Sherpa were too exhausted to attempt the peak. They had no choice but to return without completing their climb.

�We all looked at the summit and then returned,� he said. �We all agreed there was no choice.�

But Mazur had no regrets.

�Oh yeah, it was worth it,� he said. �You can always go back to the summit but you only have one life to live. If we had left the man to die, that would have always been on my mind ... How could you live with yourself?�”

“Now thats a climber... and he's old school.

I will name drop on this one, I know Dan. Amy climbed Ama Dablam with him.

This is how climbers are supposed to act.”

“great story. I'm glad there are still people like that on that mountain.”

“Awesome story! Can we put to rest that rescue in the Death Zone is impossible, or even "really difficult" for guides and sherpas?

I'm really hoping the 40+ #&%!$s are reading these stories.”

“Dan is from my hometown, he's a hero! From what I understand, he's a very loving, giving, wonderful human being!

Why anyone wouldn't stop to help is just beyond belief!

This will come back to Dan threefold!”

“In my eyes, at least, Mazur has earned more glory here than if he'd summitted.

The Italians he mentions, however, covered themselves in sh---

While Mazur�s team was busy assisting Hall, two Italian climbers walked past them toward the summit. When asked to help, they claimed they did not understand English. On his return to base camp, Mazur discovered they did.

�I don�t know why they didn�t want to stop to help,� Mazur said. �I hope when I am there, in that state, and someone passes me ... I hope it is someone like me.�”

“This is how real mountaineers act. The rest of those SOB's are posers, wanna be's and tourists.

Driving a car fast doesn't make you a race car driver.

Climbing a mountain doesn't make you a mountaineer.
last edited: 6/09/06 11:07:39 AM”

“Amen to all that. Thanks for the post.”

“mtnsteve, what you post is exactly my point. Climbing everest is no longer about mountain climbing anymore for many of the people who do it. Its about "having the best" that some rich peeps think they deserve or any other person who puts status over ethics. The best car, the best house, the best hiking gear, the best golf club membership, the hottest wife, no matter that they can't drive the car, build the house, golf worth a damn or woo women without money. They have the money and/or the ego so they deserve it. Everest is the best, since its the highest. Its gonna attract the wannabees and the win at all cost crowds.

Luckily, there are still people who climb it because its the pinnacle of there climbing career, not a feather in the cap of their "look at me suit"”

“I agree Hyway.

Amy had the chance to do Everest. When she talked to me about it I asked if it spoke to her...she said no.

She didnt do it.”

“Some conflicting stories are coming out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060610/ap_on_re_au_an/everest_dying_climber”

“did anyone watch the show on Everest that had been airing on the Discovery Channel. The season ending show was on last night.

It showed this guy(David Sharp)laying under a rock slowly dieing. People did try to help him but he was beyond help. Some even stayed with with for over an hour risking there own life to try and help him. I was highly critical of the climbers who passed him by. After watching the show I now see why the climber was left.

Even folks who were in shape struggled to get to the top and back down. No way would these guys have been able to carry him back down. There were areas where the path/trail was so narrow that it was one foot in front of the other.”

“I have been glued to the TV during this series. While watching this program I did not realize it was filming the very events that set the climbing and non climbing world on it's side. Everyone was so critical of the people being callous and uncaring about the guy who was left to die.

Meanwhile, these same people who did try to do what they could at their own risk were being vilified in the media. I am extrememly happy that none of these individuals who gave their own oxygen to him did not suffer any more physically than they already had. It certainly clears up many misconceptions people may have had about what happened up there.”

“i watched the whole series. Amazing how everything can turn sour though because another group of climbers that don't know what they are doing.

It must be terrible to 'walk' by dead bodies like Russell explained it. I know Mark [was that his name?] had a hard time not being able to save the climber, but I still believe the unwritten law of Everest is to leave you to die, just so you save your own ass. Very few will do differently. Sad, I know. I think I posted a question like this before a couple years ago. That's terrible, and there is just now way I could do that. [edited to add this comment so you guys dno't think I would/could do this]

Personally I wouldn't want to compare Everest with Hood though, but I am not a mountaineer.

btw: I loved Russell, what a cool guy.

anyone saw the new show Evererst ER? I haven't seen that one yet.
last edited: 12/20/06 9:05:30 AM”

“GM & I have been hooked on that series...it's been incredible to watch. After reading so many books on Everest, I really enjoyed the "sherpa-cams" and actually seeing it.

Watching Mark pass by the dying man last night actually made me cry b/c he was so upset about feeling helpless. I've always tried to not be too critical about climbers "leaving others to die" because I don't know what it's like to be in that position.

I thought this series was really well done in many ways. I'd like to see another one next year, or a follow up on people like Tim, Mogens and the LA fireman who want to go back again.

Gem - I wanted to see Everest ER but we don't get that channel...grrrrrr”

“Me too. Enjoyed the series. Mostly the last two episodes where they showed more actual climbing.

Good to see you post Ewker :-)”

“Now I wish I had watched the series. Climbing Everest is something that has never interested me at all, but this discussion has peaked my interest in watching.”

“I had to turn it off....there are times when if you can't help yourself you are no good to your patient. I am pretty sure AmyG could share some stories of DRTing Patients so others would live.
One of the worst things I see in the MOVIE Fires is the guy pulling his mask off to give air to the victim. We always watch it and think, "Great now there are two victims."

I have had some bad multivictim incidents where where the paramedic has looked at me knowing he would make the final medical decision. As his supervisor I tell them to MAKE THE CALL, I WILL BACK YOU UP.”

“Bull#&%!$!

you don't leave someone to die and continue on. I guess if a dozen people or more can pass someone by saying "he/she is beyond help" that justifies it in their mind. Hope they can live with it. Actually, i hope it torments them. I couldn't do it.

To me they downgraded a human to the lowest of life and that makes them the scum of the Earth.”

“Now I wish I had watched the series. Climbing Everest is something that has never interested me at all, but this discussion has peaked my interest in watching.”
lumberzac
10:20:48 AM
12/20/06

If you get the Discovery Channel - I think they are showing the whole series, start to finish on Sunday beginning at 5pm.”

“Have to disagree with you bearmagnet. When any action by you creates a risk of additional fatalities, stay out of it.

On Everest the additional fatality is you, this also happens on beaches when a person is carried out by a rip tide. There are numerous occurences where "the rescuer" becomes an additional victim.
Yes I can swim, I can swim pretty good, but my first responsibility is to my family to come home, not to be a dead hero.

And for the Everest climber, who does it affect when they die as well?

Climb with an American or NZ guiding service and the cost is about $65,000. This includes having a doctor in the party, oxygen, and supplies for a several month acclimatization program.
Go with an Eastern European or South American guiding service and the cost is about $18,000. Well guess what? with the reduced cost comes additional risk. What support do you NOT have.
Why should those who have properly prepared abandon what they are doing to provide for those who CHOSE not to have that level of support.

How many insurance companies are replacing houses in New Orleans for homeowners who did not have a policy with them. It is the same thing.”

“I have not watched the show but will if it is on Sun. I mean, plenty of people have died on Everest. The risks are well known and the skeletons on the slopes punctuate that risk. You want to do it? Be prepared to pay the ultimate price.”

“Part of the equation is climbers who won't quit, who keep going long after they should have stopped. Often you can get away with that, but not on Everest. If you can't control your urge to reach the summit when your body is telling you that its had enough, then you die. Nobody forced them to keep going until they were didn't have enough energy to get down, they did it themselves. I'd be all for helping them, but not at the risk of my life.”

“Sorry. it's all bull#&%!$. And you can't convince me otherwise. if a team can't attempt a rescue then you have no business being there. And I hope we're not judging why someone may be in mortal danger as to rationalizing why we may not help?

Do you question how someone got into trouble if you see a potential drowning victim? Do you not help? You can die doing that also. And very easily. You can die pulling someone out of a burning car.

Saying Everest is different is Bull#&%!$. Someone else said it. The value of life does not change dependent on where you are.”

“In the drowning analogy, if someone decides to swim the English channel and gets in trouble, and I'm swimming along side and barley making it, I'm not going to try to haul the guy in if it would cost me my life. If someone is in an ice cold lake, I'm going to look for a rope to throw, and if the water is cold and the distance is far, I'm not going in after him. Call me crazy.

At that altitude just standing up and taking a step takes a lot of energy. Everyone up there is close to exhuastion, time is running out, they have a long way to go, difficult terrain to cross, and no one knows if they are going to get down alive. You can't carry or drag another person. Getting up is way easier than getting down. The climber in trouble didn't get there by accident or without knowing the risks, or without making certain decisions.

At lower elevations, if a person has to be carried it takes a big party of rescuers, like 20 people, to actually carry a big guy out. It is exhausting work at low elevations. At high elevations, wearing crampons, with difficult rock to get over, and steep ice slopes, there is no way to carry or drag a person. About all you could do is give him a candy bar, some water, maybe some extra oxygen, and try to get him moving. His partners, sherpas, and trip leader should have made him turn back way earlier. Chances are he was a person who just wouldn't listen to them.
last edited: 12/20/06 11:17:13 AM”

“The value of life does not change dependent on where you are.”

“I love what russell said to his climbers, it went something like...

if I tell you to come back, you'll come back. If you don't follow orders I will send the sherpas back,and you will die. I will deal with courts later. It's not a sherpas job to die for you.

about leaving someone to die: I tell you, I never could do this. I could never just walk by someone knowing he will die. BUT, I never climbed Everest, and when I saw Mark, and saw how upset he was, I am sure he thought he could never walk by a dying person.

Not that I ever would have the chance, but I don't think I ever want to climb Everest just because I don't want to have to make a decission like that. I don't want to be put into that situation at all. It must be aweful.
last edited: 12/20/06 11:31:37 AM”

“The first rule of being a rescuer is to not become a victim.”

“Well, IMHO, there seems to be a lot of assuming going on. assuming a rescue attempt will kill you on Everest. I think there's a little too much rationalizing going on up there. and as you(?) said some people put themselves in danger just to get to the top, I think more will tend to ignore someone in trouble to get to the top.

All in all, it stinks. If i had the "extra" money to do it I would choose to spend it on something else. Maybe another Mountain where I won't get in some ones way if I collapse and where I won't be treated like a dying rat.

Somewhere I could trust humans to behave as such. Especially if I'm in their group.

I'm done here. Thank you for letting me rant and I hope I didn't offend. I do respect everyone's opinion on this. Guess I get a little emotional.

May none of us have to make such a decision out there.

Peace”

“Bear, watch the show and you might change your mind. It starts again this Sunday on the Discovery Channel”

“Bear, I can certainly understand your opinion. And it is one of those situations...like a friend of mine had to make about his father on lifesupport. I am greatful I don't have to make that call.

Bob is right, its like the situation we have with parents during a house fire. There are times when going back in or doing something will just double the number of rescuers who will eventually have to remove everyone.

In wilderness school we had it preached to us to take care of OURSELVES first. What would happen if the only person well trained in medical dies trying to save a "pretty much dead" patient. Then a few days later you have a serious incident where they could have made a difference?

What little I saw the guy was out of O2 in the DEATH ZONE...chances are he was dead and his body just didn't know it yet. I worked a rescue years ago with a young girl (20ish) who was involved in a T-bone impact where she was physically moved by the penetration of the drunk driver's car.
She was clear and coherent when we were stabalizing her, good vitals. And as we took her out she started vomiting. We put her in the Chopper and she died enroute to the hospital. Her Renal Artery had been torn from the Kidney and she bled out in no time.

One of those, you make a call. You live with the decision.”

“XL, I need your address to mail you the files on a CD. You can contact me at shaver@dykaslaw.com Bob”

“I think my problem is that this team were able to slide a guy with no legs down the mountain - they were able to put cameras on the top of the mountain, they were able to film and guide a bunch of amateur climbers to the top, but they could do nothing to help that guy?
Personally it seemed to me that they made more of a financial decision not to help as it would have jepoardized the whole project.
There were plenty of skilled climbers who said more should have been done, including the guy who went up there first.”