Jesus faked

“Actually Mutt, I thought that you had been raised by a Christian family and had rebelled against it due to some bad experience.

It is not my mission to convert Jewish people to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. If you already have a relationship with God, then you are responsible for your own beliefs.”

“MSilver, I see on Google that many of the scrolls are translated and a number of books have been published discussing the jewish community in which the scrolls were written and what the implications are for the christian religion. I have not seen any of these books at my library, but I will try the county library. I guess I read an article about a current translation of a fragment, and didn't realize that most of the work had been done already and published. It appears that most of the fragments of scrolls relate to the Torah and Old Testament prophets. Isaiah was the only complete book to be found. Are there discrepencies about the predictions of the coming of the messiah?”

“Anyone ever notice that Genesis is how you would explain the big bang theory to a 6 year old.....

I always believed that the great books like the Bible and Koran were written to get a very complicate and abstract idea across to a people that were, well, less then aware of how their world worked.

Some where, someone or some thing is saying..."My God, they are still reading those kiddie primers we gave them so long ago"

If one religion was the true path, you would think after thousands of years, it would have made itself apparent....now we just have more religions, and the path has become very muddied.”

“good point, mtnsteve. First god gave us religion. Then when humanity graduated from that and was capable of deeper understanding, God gave us science.”

“OK Lyndy, I have a problem with people believing that God will bring suffering to those who are on the wrong side of his/her favor.

Death and destruction has been meted out by humans who claim they are doing some supreme being's will for eons.
The violence is always perpetrated by humans.
Larceny is almost always practiced during these "wrath of god" human rampages.
This violence is one of the most primative of human traits and is often attributed to the will of a supreme being.

Looking at it from point of view of a detective it would seem as though larceny is the primary motive.....another primative human trait.

In recorded history there is no evidence of any violence being perpetrated by a supreme being.
This "divine violence" is always carried out by humans at the urging of religious "leaders".

In the '90s young Serb soldiers were told by Christian chaplains that even though slaughter of humans may seem wrong, you must do it for your god and your race.
Again, the taking of property followed the killing.

The danger is that some charismatic leader can fool people into repeating this sorry history.
We've seen it again and again.
And its the same nasty behavior that humans have been engaging in since Stone Age times.”

“"It is not my mission to convert Jewish people to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. If you already have a relationship with God, then you are responsible for your own beliefs."

I wish all evangelicals took this point of view. Missionaries are the one single problem I have with christians, messyantics in particular.”

“I saw a couple of those jolly bicycle boys just yesterday.”

“That was the paper boy training the new guy.”

“By the thread title I should've known you'd show his face to rip on folks religious beliefs, Mutt. You truely enjoy it I'm sure.”

“Tom, maybe you don't believe that the story of Moses when Egypt was convinced to release the Hebrew slaves, is recorded history. Or Sodom and Gomorrah. Or Noah's Ark. Some of us believe otherwise. These and other killings are attributed to God's wrath. They are from the Old Testament. I don't think the New Testament attributes any mass killings to God during the life of Christ, but I could be wrong, I am a relatively new student of the bible. Anyway, that is why the book of Revelation seems odd to me, because it reminds me more of the Old Testament than the teachings of Christ. But anyway it is a prediction of future wrath, and some Christians believe that it won't happen if good prevails over evil, among humans. Since, as Tom reminds us, so many people are quick to murder mass numbers of humans in the name of their religion, or just for larceny, it is hard to believe that we can hold off the Tribulation indefinitely. Some Christians say that they can not wait for the Rapture to happen. To me though, this would mean failure, that people as a species, could not turn the tide towards good, away from evil.

Nigal, I know that Christian churches preach that all followers should spread the word of the gospel. I just think that there is a right way and a wrong way. I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to teach someone about Christ in a way that would have that person throw away their previous beliefs and adopt mine. All I can do is describe my own beliefs. There are plenty of other people who can explain better than me, and so the mission is theirs. My mission is something else.”

“mtnsteve, et al: The bible was never intended to be a science book. The opening chapters of Genesis for example are intended to help illustrate the origins of the universe and the nature of evil in the world. To criticize it from a modern scientist’s perspective forces it to be something it never was meant to be. I suppose God could’ve included in Genesis something like: "And thus God formed the stars, great spheres of mostly hydrogen and helium where the tremendous pressures allow fusion to occur, releasing energy according to the formula E=mc2..." but that would be totally useless information for the ancient Hebrews, and would certainly cause more confusion than clarity. So God used the systemic thinking of the ancients when necessary. At the same time, an honest and open-minded study of the Old Testament today demonstrates that there is little or nothing there to contradict what modern science has discovered.

...Incoming !!!

*
*
*

Lyndy: When *genuinely* asked, the question of how accurate bible copies are is indeed a valid one, because the manuscripts have been copied many times. Prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest extant OT Hebrew manuscripts were dated around the 10th century AD. The DSSs however, re-set the oldest OT manuscripts date to before the time of Christ. During examination, there was a lot of suspense as to how accurately the DSSs would compare with the 10th century AD manuscripts. And there were in facts errors ...but they amounted to no more than the equivalent of a few punctuation mistakes here and there. The DSSs are by no means the only facts supporting the reliability of the bible, but they certainly provide authority toward the incredible accuracy with which the OT manuscript scribes performed their duties.

Popular negative myths persist regarding the bibliographical accuracy of New Testament as well, but the issue is largely moot because there are over 20,000 ancient copies of the NT for comparison purposes. No other ancient writing even comes close to that number. Nor has any other ancient document been copied closer to the writing of the originals.

The popular and stubborn myth of things being "lost in the translations" is a bogus argument ...albeit understandable (though inexcusable) in our world of instant info-bytes via the internet, cable news channels, etc. But you can be reasonably assured that the bible as we read it today has been copied down through the centuries without anything essential being lost.

*
*
*

Nigal: Despite your distaste for missionary endeavors, Christianity is *essentially* an evangelical religion. Deal with it.”

“i've faked a few times, when i got too tired. only one chick ever figured it out.”

“so did Seinfeld Rad”

“mutt, read a book called into the light...”

“M Silver


My Gods better then your God.......





Deal with it.”

“mtnsteve,

You're muddying the issue. And when you throw mud, everybody gets dirty ...and you lose ground ;-)”

“Once again you have missed the point......

Anyone that tells others he/she has found the ONLY true path and that all others are wrong is fooling themselves. It's part of the reason the world is in such strife, Catholics killing Protestants, Muslims killing Muslims and even Buddhist's killing each other.

Thats what the "My Gods better then yours" comment was about....the "deal with it" part was a quote from you.”

“I believe in God, or at least a power far greater then we can ever understand....my God is looking down on us, trying to figure why all these people are killing each other in his name....we are all praying to the same God.”

“After reading this I've come to a few conclusions. First off some of you have things a bit backwards. In Revelation it isn't God who is doing evil things on the earth it is Satan. Second off there is only one God and he did have a son named Jesus. He is the only way to get to heaven. Third the Koran isn't a holy book. It is a book of lies. Forth Jesus is a real person. If you want a long and lengthy but well written explanation read the book A Case for Christ. Now Mutt you can try to tear down my faith but it won't work. God didn't exclude you and he isn't exclusive he wants everybody to be with him but if you don't pick him your picking death and that your fault not his. So get over it and before you start talking about things you don't know anything about read the Bible and you realize that Jesus is real. Finally Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life no one come unto the Father except through him.”

“Acts, I disagree with you about Revelation. Satan isn't the only one.”

“Pretty Good
Not bad
I can't complain....”

“Stratdewd - why?

Acts - I couldn't give a flying fart about your faith - as long as it doesn't cause societal conflict. Woops! It does! And all because you're too insecure to admit Christianity may not be the only path to God. Let me ask you - if you're certain christianity is the only valid religion, then you would have to claim to know the totality of God. Otherwise, if you don't know the totality of God (and you'd be a blinkered fool to suggest otherwise), then you cannot be certain that the parts you're not cognizant of can't be explained by other religions. Or even that the God you know cannot be explained by other religions.”

“Oh, and Buddur - sure christianity sounds to me like a poorly written horror story a parent may tell their child to keep them in line, but my main beef is with one aspect of your belief system: exclusivity.”

“Sounds like you are the one showing a lot of rage here, Mutt. Societal conflict comes from people who act out their anger, not from religion.”

“if you're certain christianity is the only valid religion, then you would have to claim to know the totality of God.

That argument doesn't stand, because your conclusion is false.

John 16:4 "Jesus answered. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Thus there is one true religion, and knowing this does not require knowing the totality of God, only the words of his Son.

It seems strange in a way that people in this thread knock religion and are insulting to those who make their beliefs public while at the same time claiming to somehow be better than those who hold religious beliefs.

What internal battles are your fighting that cause you to be so nasty to others? Why do you care so much about someone else's belief system?”

“deeddawg: that kind of recursive logic is a fallacy. "Christianity is the one true religion because Christianity is the one true religion." Brilliant! That makes the following true too: "Christianity is a false religion because on my memo pad where I wrote down the Word of God, it says Christianity is a false religion."”

“Oh, and to answer your other questions: Christianity causes societal conflict. People get hurt. The institution of Christianity is evil, and the root of it can be traced to two causes: exclusivity and evangelism.”

“Recursive? Sure, simply because it is based on faith. To attempt to discredit matters of faith with "logic" is the true fallacy and where you will never succeed.

Christianity in and of itself causes nothing. Has there been conflict caused by some who call themselves Christians? Sure. But that is the action of those individuals. Show to me the "doctrine" in which "Christianity" has called for any sort of harm to come to others?

Is it exclusive? Hardly; any and all who wish to accept Christ as Savior are welcome. Christianity is not based in any church or house of worship. It is something between you and God. But it is a choice, you do or you don't. You could as much say backpacking is "exclusive" in that you do or you don't. It's one or the other. Are you saying it is wrong to be a backpacker because it is "exclusive"? I would say instead that backpacking is not exclusive because all it takes to be one is to choose to do so; it does not require the approval or involvement of any other humans.

As for evangelism, if you found something really cool and that others would benefit from, would you share it or keep it to yourself? Do you tell other people about how much you enjoy backpacking? How is that not evangelizing?

Note that sharing your joy of something is significantly different from beating others over the head with it. Are there folks who do the latter? Sure there are. Are they representative of all who are Christians? Hardly.

You seem to have had some sort of bad experience and cannot seperate the individuals you've encountered from the actual realities of Christ.

Perhaps you should direct your anger towards those individuals and not against the innocents here whose faith you seem to take glee in insulting.

Or are you some sort of sadist that gets your jollies from hurting others?”

“Recursive? Sure, simply because it is based on faith. To attempt to discredit matters of faith with "logic" is the true fallacy and where you will never succeed.

Well, you just proved my point. There's NO reason to believe Christianity is the *only* path to God, other than to believe the bible. Logically, it's a trivial matter to show that Christianity cannot possibly be the one true religion. God gave us logic. To abandon it for faith is a mistake. And in the case of exclusivity of Christianity - a mistake that resulted in a history replete with abuse and harm.

Is it exclusive? Hardly; any and all who wish to accept Christ as Savior are welcome.

No, "exclusive" as in it's the ONLY religion that's true.

Christianity in and of itself causes nothing. Has there been conflict caused by some who call themselves Christians? Sure. But that is the action of those individuals. Show to me the "doctrine" in which "Christianity" has called for any sort of harm to come to others?

As an analogy, consider Christianity to be an very inefficient internal combustion engine. The Christian engine comes on to the scene, and people say 'wow, look how it helps humanity break the shackles of bipedal locomotion by moving people around quickly. We're saved!!!' So it spreads around and eventually everyone has a Christian engine. Now of course this Christian engine is doing good by providing motive force for people's cars, but in the process it's spewing out pollutants left and right (remember, it's really inefficient). Since everyone's got one, that's some serious pollution entering in the environment. Suddenly, a person who is concerned about the harm the engine is causing comes along and points out how destructive the engine is to people and the environment. He's right. If it wasn't for the engine, these pollutants wouldn't be harming people. But when confronting True Believers of the christian engine, he gets the response 'but it's not the pollutants that are the christian engine - the point is that the motive force it provides is good for humanity. The pollutants aren't really the christian engine.' Obviously this is a copout. If it wasn't for the engine, the pollutants wouldn't be there (or to a much lesser extent).

Now I know this is silly, but it makes a point: you *cannot* separate the good aspects of religion from the bad. They're one and the same. Christianity IS very destructive. History bears this out repeatedly. It continues today.

Note that sharing your joy of something is significantly different from beating others over the head with it. Are there folks who do the latter? Sure there are. Are they representative of all who are Christians? Hardly.

And they would call *you* unrepresentative of true christians.”

“"We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H. L. Mencken”

“mtnsteve,

Anyone that tells others he/she has found the ONLY true path and that all others are wrong is fooling themselves.

Hmmm... your claim itself seems rather exclusivist ...and intolerant.

I believe in God, or at least a power far greater then we can ever understand....my God is looking down on us, trying to figure why all these people are killing each other in his name....we are all praying to the same God.

I agree ...though not totally. God is not trying to "figure out" why people commit immoral acts in His name. I doubt that this stumps Him at all.

I also doubt that many of the so-called "religious wars" are primarily rooted in religion itself. Religion may be used as an "excuse" for war, but these conflicts probably have just as much - if not more - to do with economics, greed, racism, envy, power, politics, etc. (Gee! Why can't we all just get along, eh? ;-) ) than they do with issues of religion. Once again though, the mainstream mass media ("where more people turn get their news") give us only info-bytes on issues that are far more complex than appear on the evening news.”

“Anyone that tells others he/she has found the ONLY true path and that all others are wrong is fooling themselves.

Hmmm... your claim itself seems rather exclusivist ...and intolerant.



Yep!”

“There's NO reason to believe Christianity is the *only* path to God, other than to believe the bible. Logically, it's a trivial matter to show that Christianity cannot possibly be the one true religion.

The faith that Christianity is the only path to Salvation is based upon the statements of Christ and the belief in those statements. Circular? Sure. Show me the logic disproving Christ's words.


No, "exclusive" as in it's the ONLY religion that's true.

Sorry that you see that as a problem. Sometimes there are absolutes in this world, not everything is a gray area. Drop a piece of toast to the floor and it's going to land one way or the other, buttered side up or buttered side down.

If it wasn't for the engine, these pollutants wouldn't be harming people. [...] The pollutants aren't really the christian engine. [...] If it wasn't for the engine, the pollutants wouldn't be there (or to a much lesser extent).

I have to disagree with this analogy as it presupposes that the "engine" creates the "pollutants".

There are some people who are inherently evil and will work their evil ways using whatever tools are at their disposal. It is these people who cause the problems, sometimes directly and sometimes by brainwashing the weak-willed.

How is accepting Christ as Savior and attempting to live in a Christ-like manner destructive? What are the instances of where evil actions do not originate from the individual who misuses Christianity for his/her own purposes?

You would do as well to call modern Germans evil because of the actions surrounding the Third Reich? Was the problem a set of indivuals who used their nation and its people or are all Germans evil? By your statements you are blaming all Germans past and present for the actions of a few.

And they would call *you* unrepresentative of true christians.

I don't know about where you live, but around these parts the "beat you over the head with it" folks are VERY few and far in between. Those who are willing to discuss their faith if asked and are courteous to folks who choose to hold a different faith are MUCH more in the majority and I'm in the South. Like thousands to one.

(Note that the nice gentleman bicycling to your door with copies of the Watchtower are NOT a part of this discussion as Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians)

Now if your issue is that you have a problem with us quietly thinking your chosen belief is not the Truth, then that is a problem you will have to deal with on your own. If you choose to believe otherwise and ask me, I will tell you that I believe mine is the only true way, but I certainly do not seek you out and tell you any such think unbidden.”

“Oh. This thread again.”

“anyone here read
The Sermon on the Mount according to Vedanta
by Swami Pabhavananda
or
Christ the Yogi
by Ravi Ravindra

yogi's love his teachings....



~~~inquire within”

“Hey, Jesus was a Jew, you know?”

“You Know Yours Is A Redneck Church If:

1. The finance committee refuses to provide funds for the purchase of a chandelier because none of the members knows how to play one.

2. People ask, when they learn that Jesus fed the 5000, whether the two fish were bass or catfish, and what bait was used to catch 'em.

3. The pastor says, "I'd like to ask Bubba to help take up the offering." Then five guys and two women stand up.

4. Opening day of deer season is recognized as an official church holiday.

5. A member of the church requests to be buried in his 4-wheel-drive truck because "It ain't never been in a hole it couldn't get out of."

6. The choir is known as the "OK Chorale".

7. In a congregation of 500 members, there are only seven last names in the church directory.

8. Baptism is referred to as "branding".

9. There is a special fund raiser for a new church septic tank.

10. Finding and returning lost sheep isn't just a parable.

11. High notes on the organ set the dogs on the floor to howling.

12. People think "rapture" is what you get when you lift something too heavy.

13. The baptismal font is a #2 galvanized washtub.

14. The choir robes were donated by (and embroidered with the logo from) Billy Bob's Barbecue.

15. The collection plates are really hub caps from a '56 Chevy.

16. Instead of a bell, you're called to service by a duck call.

17. They serve beef jerky on important occasions.

18. The minister and his wife drive matching pickup trucks.

19. The service wine is Boone's Farm "Tickled Pink".

20. Thou shalt not covet" applies to hunting dogs, too.

21. The final words of the benediction are, "Y'all come back now, ya hear?”

“Didnt we just have this discussion?”

“mutt, the book i mentioned (Embraced By The Light[i misquoted the title before])explains the existance of different religions, or different paths to God in the best way i've ever seen. it really put me at ease...it's a very good book. i highly reccomend it to anyone who qeustions their faith or even those who would like to strenghten it. it is written by a woman who had a near death experience and talked to Jesus and it's the most comforting thing i recall reading. i understand your uneasiness with the "exclusivity" issue. i have had such qeustions in the past. it explains why we're here and what's coming next. why bad things happen....everything. this book lays it all out and it's so understandable and believable.....i could go on and on, but just read it if you're really interested in this issue. it explains what prophets and scholors have been trying to tell us for thousands of years. it uplifted me and changed my life. thought provoking, inspirational and comforting....

also, don't paint all Christains with the same brush cuz most aren't like 'that'. it's just as logical as alaska saying all republicans are terrorist cuz the olimpic park bomber had some conservative ideas.....


Embraced By The Light, by Betty J Eadie

ISBN#1-882723-00-7”

“You either choose Jesus or not the only thing is when you die and you haven't choosen him. You'll find out those of us that are Christians are right and that you should have choosen him while you had the chance. Jesus died and he rose again and if you can't accept it that's your decision. No one excluded you, no one said you couldn't be part of the Kingdom. Also to say Christianiy is exclusive in that it is the only way to get to heaven it isn't exclusive it is a fact like you can't live if you don't eat. You choose not to eat you die so you don't choose Jesus you die. Where as if you choose to eat you live and if you choose Jesus you live. So Mutt I know where I'm going but do you really really know where your going? Honestly you can't say you don't know. I know because I made a decision because I've seen Jesus work in my life and many others. It isn't just logic it is also taking a risk and seeking for the truth and if your really looking for the truth you'll find Jesus. It's up to you and every other non-Christian. Take it or leave it but don't waste your time trying to tear down a Christians faith because Jesus is stronger than you or any one else. So I hope Jesus opens your eyes to him and that maybe you'll realize that he is your Savior.”

“Getting back to the original subject, It is well know that many so called artifacts were hawked by unscupulous dealers including dinnerware and utensils, clothing bones and pretty much anything else they thought gullible treasure seekers would buy. I wouldnt accept this as genuine any more then the shroud of turan....anyone who chases this bull deserves to be taken.”

“acts1042,

"I've been a Christian for 3 years and I went from almost killing myself to living a life that is worthwhile and good."

Doesn't that just mean you're unstable, have no self-esteem, and are incredibly gullible?? Doesn't say anything about the fact that you (or no one else) can prove unequivocably that any of the dogma is true.

Read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail"... and when you're done with that, let me know, and I'll recommend a number of other books that you probably are too inept to understand or consider rationally. Lots of proof beyond dogma AGAINST what the Church claims as truth...”

“thou shalt not make any graven image.

you know those cute crosses, shrines and statues of jesus that so many christians love to keep around....

they are forbidden....

I thought you might want a new argument.... the old one was....OLD!”

“acts1042, I usually let grand statements like this go but sense you adressed every non-christian, I'll call ya on it.

“You'll find out those of us that are Christians are right and that you should have choosen him while you had the chance.”

Please show me one single verse from the original Hebrew text that states worshipping, following or even believing in Ha Moshiach (The Messiah) is a requirement for salvation. The path to salvation has always been there.”

“Yes I was unstable and you are right on that but gullible no. I hated Christians for a long time how I found Jesus is beyond me but I know that it is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Dirty old man you are right but like you said that was the old testament not the new when the Messiah came and taught the truth things changed a bit. One of which is that its ok to have images of Christ. You mean the torah as in where in the Old Testament does it say you have to believe to be saved. Well I don't know that it does. But I do know that it says it in the New Testament. To be honest with you that one is very important I personaly think that the New Testament is more important than the Old Testament. I think I've answered most of whats been said but if I missed one put it up. Also I can prove most books wrong that say Christianity is wrong with one simple fact. I'll even tell you it. In the begining God created....
Also it says in the begining was the Word and the Word was made flesh..... So when the Earth was created so was man and thats the truth. Deal with it.”

“BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- Faced with a rush of pilgrims, a Massachusetts hospital said Thursday it would cover a shimmering image of the Virgin Mary in the window of an office building for most of the day.

On Wednesday evening, staffers lowered a tarp over the window where believers say the mother of Jesus Christ gazes down on them. The image was first seen last week.

"We asked people to visit the window only between 5:30 and 8:30 in the evening so that the crowds won't interfere with hospital activities. But that wasn't working and so we made the decision to uncover the window only during those hours," said Susan Schepici, a spokeswoman at Milton Hospital.

Still people are flocking to the community hospital at all hours, Schepici said, counting about 30 people staring at the covered window this morning.

"It doesn't seem to matter if it is covered or not. We have had a steady stream of between 50 and 100 people during the last few days and the crowd grows to about 200 at night. People bring flashlights to see the image," she said.

As to what caused the image, Schepici said the hospital has "no official position with respect to the issue of an apparition."

Last weekend after the image was first discovered, roughly 25,000 people visited the hospital, 10 miles south of Boston and hospital staffers expected more visitors this weekend

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/06/20/offbeat.religious.traffic.reut/index.html

This story and others similar to it show how STUPID people of "faith" really are. It fully explains why people who believe in God are nothing more than morons who create a rosy fallacy to give meaning to their own worthless lives. Religion is a crutch for the mentally weak, which explains why cults are successful.”

“Quantum physicists have one of the highest percentages of believers in a higher power of all the sciences.

"according to the big bang theory, before "it" happened there was no space, no matter, no time, nothing...then a point appeared and BANG, out of that point, sprang the beginnings of the universe.

Now, tell me that thats not a leap of faith.

Reality is much stranger then religion.”

“A little off your topic, guys, but I wanted to comment on something I find real cool about that holy dude, the Son of God, Jesus. He did alot of hiking. AND he didn't hike around w/ tea drinking, scroll reading snooty types. He hung out w/ the diseased, w/ prostitutes, w/ the poor, w/ children, w/ lepers, and liars, and adulters, and the fringe sorts. He had something to say to people who questioned him about hanging out w/ the riff-raff. "Jesus answered them, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor - sick people do.'" Matthew 5:31

MUTT, Jesus even wanted to hang out w/ people who doubted him, people who would later deny that they knew him, and even sell out on him. In fact, even after his death Jesus chose people to follow him who were in the proccess of arresting new Christians. If you can get ahold of a Bible read the story in Acts 9:1-19. It'll take you about 5 minutes.”

“LOL! Mtnsteve, that post right after Alaska's is stinkin' hilarious.”

“Also, Alaska, the Bible says specifically that we shouldn't go around worshipping objects. Those people in your story are wrong for that, but calling them stupid is a little silly on your part.”