Jesus faked

“The "exclusivity" of the Christian belief that accepting Christ as savior is the only way to salvation is inseparable from Christianity itself.

Thus, to attack this exclusivity is to attack Christianity and its adherents

Strawman. How do you know that exclusivity is the "most basic tenet"? Because that sounds made up to me. In fact, it's obviously wrong. It's like saying Christians must believe the sky is purple when it's OBVIOUS it's not. Something so obviously wrong CANNOT be the most basic tenet of Christianity. Besides, you're saying that the millions of christians who do believe in the validity of other religions are wrong and not Christian even in the most basic sense. That is obviously wrong.

You say they are wrong to be "exclusive" in that they say other religions are wrong. Yet it's okay for you to say that Christian beliefs are wrong?

Believing in something that causes harm to other people is wrong. It's a pretty universal sentiment. That's why it's correct to assert that exclusivity must be wrong and antithetical to the Christian faith. i.e. it's a manmade tool of social control.

Most folks would interpret your use of exclusionary in a different manner -- the typical take on your statements would be to think you are saying that Christians are not accepting of other people. You and I both know that is quite untrue.

Christians accepting of other people? That's a fatuous lie. Just when have Christians accepted homosexuality, as just one example of many?”

“Good points, newgirl. It's just that I don't need the dumbed-down version of Life. I'd rather be ignorant than believe in a fiction.”

“Mutt, I think it is great that you are such an intelligent man (not trying to patronize, I have no reason to believe that you aren't as intelligent as you claim). However, there are many, many people in God's glorious creation that are not so gifted. There are many who do not have access to even the most basic educations that would allow them to comprehend a very complicated path to God. More than all of this, I think the Lord values humbleness, meekness, and simplicity. As we see demonstrated by Jesus, it is important that you're message isn't in such a lofty manner, (that you are not such a "worldly" person as to turn others off) that it can not reach the intended audience . . . HUMAN beings. He has given us all the info. we need for this life and he has given it in a very simple manner.”

“"But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]." -- Paul of Tarsus, Romans 1:21b-22 (Amplified Bible)”

“You've very good at making blanket dismissals of others statements, but I haven't seen where you've backed up any of these with solid arguments.

Perhaps I've missed them. Please do me the favor of enlightening my understanding.

Because that sounds made up to me. In fact, it's obviously wrong.

How so? Please explain where my statement is incorrect, as it's not so obvious on this side of the screen.


Believing in something that causes harm to other people is wrong

While at face value this statement is correct, where your logic fails is that you claim Christianity causes harm. You have not shown this to be true as far as I have seen. That some power-hungry or evil individuals use Christianity for their own evil purposes does not make Christianity evil. Using this flawed logic one could as well say that ALL institutions are evil -- a patently ridiculous argument. Look at the horrors committed by the United States of America during the forced removal of the Cherokee indians (to name one tribe of many). Yet you single out Christianity for attack? That seems strange, why that one body?

Just when have Christians accepted homosexuality, as just one example of many?

Making such a statement shows that you obviously don't understand Christianity. There is of course a spectrum of opinion about homosexuality in the Christian church and many consider it a sin. But to consider something a sin does NOT mean one does not accept and welcome the sinner. Whether they continue to sin or not is between them and the Lord and not for us to judge.

It seems as if you have listened to the statements made by a radical few and made the assumption that everyone who has accepted Christ as Savior holds those same opinions.”

“At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."
- Matthew 11:25

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." – Matthew 18:3”

“M Silver, I was trying so hard to find the second verse you posted! LOL! I wanted to post it earlier.

Deeddawg, you also did a great job explaining the homosexuality thing. Right on Brother!

He's right Mutt. Jesus welcomed all sorts of sinners into his ranks. That didn't mean he condoned the sins (whatever they might be), but he did accept the individuals. You might think of it like this: Your best friend gets cancer. You don't like cancer, but you still like your friend.

There's all kinds of reactions in Christian churches to homosexuality, but if those churches patently reject homosexuals from their organizations they themselves are sinning in God's eyes. Deeddawg said it right. Their sin is between them and the Lord and it isn't up to a church body to dole out punishment (such as ostracizing the individual). And there aren't greater or lesser sins. God is absolutely PERFECT, so from his viewpoint all sin is on the same level. The homosexual is no bigger a sinner than the those excluding him or her. It's only humans who have ranked sin.

There's a story in one of the Gospels about some men bringing a woman caught in the act of adultery before Jesus to be stoned to death. Jesus told them that the man in the group w/ no sins could throw the first rock. So they got all bummed out and took off. Jesus (the PERFECT Son of God, the only one who could throw a rock) was left alone w/ the woman. "Jesus said, "Didn't even one of them condemn you."
"No, Lord," she said.
"Neither do I. Go and sin no more." John 8:10-11”

“"Jesus died and he rose again and if you can't accept it that's your decision."

"Ridiculous myth." - mutt

really?.... prove it”

“Christians accepting of other people? That's a fatuous lie. Just when have Christians accepted homosexuality, as just one example of many?"
Mutt

my church has many openly gay members. there are even a few gay priest, and women too. our priest marches in gay rights parades and is very political in town(always on the liberal side of things, much to my shagrin). you have obviously met some real jerks out there somewhere and have catagorized all Christians in with him.....bad form jack....”

“What did the leader of the so called "moral majority" have to say about gays?
And what did that other famous Christian leader, Bill Graham, have to say about Jews?”

“YOURE ALL WRONG!

the great frog god trinity
Buda-W-Serr will leap onto his Great Lily Pad and start the Final Croaking at exactly midnite tonite, ushering in a new era of peace and ribbits to all His adherents. sadly, i am the only one, and you will not be around to share in the Glory and free flies. i will miss you all.”

“12:17 AM and I'm still here. I must be one of the chosen.”

“It seems I wasnt one of the chosen as Im still at work :P

I find it a bit amusing that the actions of others are being used as an excuse for justifying the rejection of god.Perhaps when judgement day arrives you will stand before god and say that the moral majority corrupted me? Ya Think?...To be a Christian means to follow CHRIST, not the moral majority or Billy Graham.

I cant imagine anyone walking through the meadows and forests and still believe that they were all created by a combination of unbelievable long shot coincidences all perfectly balanced in harmony.


"While you know everything about this stone garden, Clearly you have not spent enough time looking at it." - Ambassador Delynn”

“What did the leader of the so called "moral majority" have to say about gays?
And what did that other famous Christian leader, Bill Graham, have to say about Jews?


I really don't much care what those guys say. They're not representative of mainstream Christianity and their statements are not very "Christian" -- i.e. they don't follow the examples laid down by Jesus.

Using those examples as representative of normal everyday Christians makes as much sense as thinking all black people are anti-semitic because of Louis Farrakhan's statements.

The only way to get to know real Christians is to sit down and get to know real people. To try to base an opinion of people on a few power/fame/camera hungry individuals is guaranteed to give you an incorrect picture of reality.”

“Using those examples as representative of normal everyday Christians

I gotta proofread this stuff. Substitute guys (Graham etc) for examples.”

“Because that sounds made up to me. In fact, it's obviously wrong.

How so? Please explain where my statement is incorrect, as it's not so obvious on this side of the screen.

You said that exclusivity is the “most basic tenet” of christianity! But everyone knows there’s millions of christians who believe other religions are valid. Thus I have shown with trivial effort that this cannot be the ‘least common denominator’ as it were. In fact, it’s quite obvious that Good Christians can discard exclusivity and still remain Good Christians. If you have an argument with that, then take it up with them. I’m just pointing out the obvious.

Believing in something that causes harm to other people is wrong

While at face value this statement is correct, where your logic fails is that you claim Christianity causes harm. You have not shown this to be true as far as I have seen.

Just one of many examples: denying Gays legal marriage. There is no logical reason to consider homosexuality immoral (talking about a moral, life-committed, monogamous couple). But Christianity says homosexuality is BAD – EVIL. LOL. So, naturally, christians disallow marriage – which ends up discriminating against – and thus harming – good people. Clearly, society is beginning to modernize its attitude regarding homosexuality, even though it is still vehemently slandered by christians. If christianity wasn’t around to brainwash people into believing something that clearly counters logic, then this wouldn’t even be an issue. It would be as ridiculous as speaking out against miscegenation today. Ooops, plenty of christians doing that too. Bad example!

That some power-hungry or evil individuals use Christianity for their own evil purposes does not make Christianity evil. Using this flawed logic one could as well say that ALL institutions are evil -- a patently ridiculous argument. Look at the horrors committed by the United States of America during the forced removal of the Cherokee indians (to name one tribe of many). Yet you single out Christianity for attack? That seems strange, why that one body?

Well, you come close to making a valid point here. The thing is, christianity does not need to be an institution. Government, business, the military, et al do need to be an institution. If the institution of christianity causes problems, then abondon it! After all, christians constantly remind me that True Christians believe in Christ – not the church. And thus, they ‘speak/hear/say no evil’ regarding the church’s abuses and refuse to take responsibility for what their religion has created. Pathetic!

Just when have Christians accepted homosexuality, as just one example of many?

Making such a statement shows that you obviously don't understand Christianity. There is of course a spectrum of opinion about homosexuality in the Christian church and many consider it a sin. But to consider something a sin does NOT mean one does not accept and welcome the sinner. Whether they continue to sin or not is between them and the Lord and not for us to judge.

See above. This is like institutional racism. Few may be directly discriminating or persecuting homos, but the fact remains that because homosexuality is a sin in this largely christian country, then homos are denied marriage and still face incredible discrimination.

It seems as if you have listened to the statements made by a radical few and made the assumption that everyone who has accepted Christ as Savior holds those same opinions.

Sadly, no. You cannot and will not see the problems of christianity. It’s not just the radicals. BTW, they’d call *you* a misguided christian! Who to believe…”

“"Jesus died and he rose again and if you can't accept it that's your decision."

"Ridiculous myth." - mutt

really?.... prove it

Prove it happened - with scientific certainty. If you can't, then it remains a ridiculous, childish myth.”

“my church has many openly gay members. there are even a few gay priest, and women too. our priest marches in gay rights parades and is very political in town(always on the liberal side of things, much to my shagrin). you have obviously met some real jerks out there somewhere and have catagorized all Christians in with him.....bad form jack....

No, my main beef is with exclusivity and evangelism. There's plenty of other tangents, though, that christians refuse to accept responsibility for.”

“In fact, it’s quite obvious that Good Christians can discard exclusivity and still remain Good Christians. If you have an argument with that, then take it up with them. I’m just pointing out the obvious.

You seem to not be listening or reading.

Definition of a Christian: one who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as his or her personal Savior. Christ said the only way to Salvation was through him. End of story. No other path, no other way.

Which part of this are you having such a difficult time comprehending?

So your "obvious" is an observation which is not being correctly interpreted.

Just one of many examples: denying Gays legal marriage.

Funny, last I knew "legal" marriage had nothing to do with Christianity and really just was a matter of seeing the local magistrate. Now if your state doesn't recognize homosexual marriage, take it up with the legislature.

If christianity wasn’t around to brainwash people into believing something that clearly counters logic, then this wouldn’t even be an issue.

Funny, last I checked Homosexual acts are a sin in Islam and in Judaism.

And it has nothing to do with Christians "brainwashing" anyone or anything.

The thing is, christianity does not need to be an institution

Umm.. What's the address or phone number for this supposed institution which you claim encompasses all of Christianity.

Again you dodge the original question.

If the institution of christianity causes problems, then abondon it!

Given that I have shown that the source of any evil is the individual, and how such problem individuals do not represent Christians, your argument against some supposed "institution" falls flat on it's face despite however much you keep trying to prop it up.

the fact remains that because homosexuality is a sin in this largely christian country, then homos are denied marriage and still face incredible discrimination

Sounds like you have two choices. Either (a) embark on a movement to change the laws of the country or (b) go somewhere else.

Blaming Christianity is nothing more than a copout on your part.

You cannot and will not see the problems of christianity.

Of course not. Two reasons: First, you don't seem able to comprehend the basic precepts of Christianity. Second, you and I clearly differ on our opinions about homosexual acts. And guess what, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

It’s not just the radicals. BTW, they’d call *you* a misguided christian! Who to believe…

That is beyond ridiculous. I don't give a flying flip what "they" might think of me -- my faith is between the Lord and myself.

As best as I am able I try to live my life in a Christ-like manner despite religious persecution from folks like you.

Prove it happened - with scientific certainty. If you can't, then it remains a ridiculous, childish myth

What wonderful logical reasoning. Prove that he didn't. The are multiple written accounts from witnesses who spoke with Him after his Resurrection. Disprove those accounts. And I mean disprove them -- casting the possibility of doubt does not do the job.

Mutt, this will be my last post on this thread. It is obvious you have some deep internal animosity towards some people you identify as your "Christian institution" despite your clear lack of understanding of Christianity. I cannot otherwise fathom your attitudes and animosity.

I hope you find your way to work through that anger and find happiness with yourself.”

“

”

“....he who humbles himself will be exaulted and he who exaults himself will be humbled....

Jesus Christ”

“LOL@Violin!”

“You seem to not be listening or reading.

Definition of a Christian: one who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as his or her personal Savior. Christ said the only way to Salvation was through him. End of story. No other path, no other way.

Which part of this are you having such a difficult time comprehending?

Still dodging my point I see. That's okay - it's here for everyone to see. You made a baseless assertion and now are attempting to obfuscate the issue to avoid being embarrassed.

Now if your state doesn't recognize homosexual marriage, take it up with the legislature.

Ignoring the point again to avoid embarrassment. The point is, a lot of people think homosexuality is immoral for religious reasons. There is NO logical justification of it.

Funny, last I checked Homosexual acts are a sin in Islam and in Judaism.

And it has nothing to do with Christians "brainwashing" anyone or anything

And they're clearly wrong too.

Umm.. What's the address or phone number for this supposed institution which you claim encompasses all of Christianity

You're not college educated, are you. If you can't understand a simple conceptual argument, then there is no point in responding to this.

Second, you and I clearly differ on our opinions about homosexual acts. And guess what, my opinion is just as valid as yours

LOL! You believe homosexuality is immoral based on what is written in a book that you take on blind faith. I believe homosexuality can be as moral as any other marriage based on logic and reasoning.

Your opinion has NO validity, other than you can believe whatever inane thing you want.

As best as I am able I try to live my life in a Christ-like manner despite religious persecution from folks like you.

Just like the homos are trying to do, eh?

Prove that he didn't. The are multiple written accounts from witnesses who spoke with Him after his Resurrection. Disprove those accounts. And I mean disprove them -- casting the possibility of doubt does not do the job

LOL! Utterly ridiculous! I can refer you to a number of websites which have put forth coherent arguments on the falsity of the bible. It takes faith - not reason - to believe in the resurrection. If the bible said the sky was purple, I'm sure you'd be challenging me to prove it isn't.

Until you can show me someone who has been documented in a scientific manner to have risen from the dead, believing in the Resurrection makes no sense whatsoever.

Sorry, as much as you stomp your feet and wave your arms, resurrection remains a fiction until you can come up with irrefutable proof. Besides, you're the one claiming it happened. It's a typical christian tactic to try to shift the burden of proof to the skeptic: "show me it DIDN'T happen!" Happens all the time when seriously deluded christians argue for creationism: "show me it DIDN'T happen when the bible says it did!" Laughably adolescent.

Mutt, this will be my last post on this thread. It is obvious you have some deep internal animosity towards some people you identify as your "Christian institution" despite your clear lack of understanding of Christianity

Translation: Mutt, I can't think of any other way to dodge your arguments.

I cannot otherwise fathom your attitudes and animosity.

Yes, I see reason and logic fails to have impact on you. I pity you.”

“"I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me."
-- Dave Barry”

“LOL @ Phad!”

“It's always the critical thinker that gets the rocks thrown at them, ey Mutt? Just shut your mind down and hum along.”

“I'm a little surprised to see you say that, Nigal. You sure have changed since I first encountered you here.

But anyway, they may be throwing rocks, but they're missing by a mile!”

“What’s amusing about you Mutt is that you claim such an adherence to logic yet don’t appear to have the first grasp of the basic rules of your revered “logic”.

You’ve shown quite well that you have no concept of what constitutes Christianity as it exists in the real world today and as such your so called arguments are laughable at best.

I tell you what constitutes the core of what makes someone a Christian and you dismiss it out of hand with some bogus claim of supposed Christians who believe other religions are true. You try to refute my definition with examples of people who by definition are not Christian and then say they’re Christians? Ooh, that’s so logical!

You have yet to show me the supposed Christian “institution” you claim causes such evil. Where is this supposed institution? I see a lot of individual churches, and may of them belong to larger organizations, but with such a myriad of such organizations there is no overall institution. Yet you still claim its existence despite being unable to identify it.

Clearly you cannot produce your evil institution because there is no such thing and all your hand waving and dodging the question won’t create it. Christianity is merely made up of people, all of them imperfect, and some of them evil and using the mantle of the religion to foster their evil ways.

The other key place where you show your inability to properly use logic is that you look at societal mores and because many of the people adhering to those mores are Christians, you blame Christianity. Enough fast talking and browbeating and you might even get that past some folks. But it doesn’t make it logically correct. It seems to escape your comprehension that many people may dislike something because they dislike it and that it has nothing to do with their religion.

So by your logic, incest is okay. Have you and your sister gotten it on lately? Why not?

Oh and yes, the wonderful question of the Resurrection. Let’s see, how does your supposedly logical argument go again? You tell me that it didn’t happen and that I need to show you proof that it did in order to continue believing as I do. You demand physical proof of a matter of my faith? LOL. My you’re such an astute logician. *laugh*

I'm not saying Christianity is wrong per se
I haven't said their beliefs are wrong
As much as Christianity is a disgusting, false religion - it's fun to have christians around to break over the knee of logic. Fun stuff!
I also know there are decent, moral, spiritually fulfilled people with other belief systems who are getting to "heaven" and God just like the christians are.

You’re not even able to manage self-consistency. Why would you think anyone else would take you seriously?

What college did you go to, some comic-book correspondence school? You got cheated in your logic classes.


Translation: Mutt, I can't think of any other way to dodge your arguments.

You think far too highly of yourself and your abilities at logic.

My desire to remove myself from this thread is because I find it difficult to hold an adult discussion with someone as fanatically blind as you are.

Funny how you have such a double-standard -- you persecute a class of people through insults and snide comments... and justify your actions because they don't believe as you do.”

“Deedawg, you might as well drop it, you're making yourself look more and more like a blithering zealot (which I think was mutt's plan). If you can logically prove the existence of God, you'll be the first among two thousand years of brilliant minds to be able to do so. That said, however, this isn't and never was a logical debate. God and faith are not formulae that can be proven or disproven by you or him. You can try if you want to, but he's schooling you in the realm of reasoned dialogue.”

“Yes, Phaedrus, you are correct, this is best dropped.

It was such fun though, watching his twisted attempts at logic. And pinning him down was fun, he'd twist and turn like nailing jello to a tree. Not surprising really.

Most fun I've had in a while. :)

But you're right, best dropped here.

It's been fun, Mutt. See ya next time.”

“"They're not representative of mainstream Christianity and their statements are not very "Christian" -- i.e. they don't follow the examples laid down by Jesus."

They DO represent millions of christians. Millions follow these guys. So does christ approve of homosexuality, or not?”

“Yeah! How serious was he about this "love thy neighbor" crap?”

“The verse you might want to look for is some where around leviticus...
If a man lieth with a man it is an abomination before the lord.

or there abouts....

it is clearly a part of jewish law but as to whether it was god inspired or not could be questioned much in the same way as the verse "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is a bit questionable. Much of what is covered by jewish law promotes a healthy, long life and insures the overall propagation of the jewish race. Many of these rules are no longer usefull today due to improvements is overall living conditions.

Also there is a point to contend as to whether or not the verse applied to lesbians as well.

Just to complicate matters jewish law technically doesnt apply to gentiles and as such we are only obligated to obey the 11 commandments. It could be said that homosexual relations are only a sin if they are jewish.

And then there are he/she's who are both male and female, no matter which side of the bed they choose to be on you could claim it a gay relationship.

For my side of it I am quite comfortable with who and what I am. It is of no concern to me who you choose to be a bed partner since I am not the one who has to wake up in the morning with your choice.(unless its me...) Openly marching through streets waving a banner proclaiming my particular vice seems a bit like TMI so far as IM concerned. Perhaps the act of someone who feels guilty and needs to justify thier own actions....

I need only accept myself”

“wheres that picture of that special olympics kid, again? you know, the one with the caption "arguing on the internet is like......."

deeddawg, dont worry about trying to logically prove anything. faith and logic are diametrically opposed by their very nature. you dont HAVE to prove anything to anybody. my point of view is more in line with mutts, but it is pointless to argue. but you need to ask yourself, what are your motivations for your belief? if you believe because it is comforting to believe, then you believe for the wrong reasons. sometimes truth is painful. but then again, if the atheists are right, and i convert someone from christianity to atheism, what have i accomplished? at least before, that person could have gone to their eternal doom with a smile on their face. to realize that all that waits for us is the abyss is profoundly horrifying. why would i want to do that to even my worst enemy? i am not an atheist and i am not a christian, and to say i am agnostic is too simplistic. i dont believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, but i believe it (along with other holy works) is highly important, and may be the key to spiritual salvation, but not in the way we think.

the "logic" that ppl like mutt and myself adhere to may be so inherently flawed that gradeschool children a 1000 years from now may be laughing at us, like we now laugh at the ppl who thought the earth was flat. brilliant physicists like einstein and hawking only know a fraction of a fraction of how the universe works. there may be a larger logic at work, something that only the ppl of faith intuit, the ppl who listen to the voice :"be still, and know that i am god"

as far as the homophobia issue goes, yes religion does exacerbate the problem, however, ive been thinking about it and ive done some reading about the biological and genetic roots of societal mores. mutt, you will appreciate this, the little spock you are. homosexuality is bad for the propagation of the species, any species. gay sex cannot produce offspring. therefore, it is the biological imperative of a species to ostracize any behavior that does not contribute towards furthering species, whether its homosexuality, incest, murder, etc. its not moral or immoral. we are controlled by our genes. they want to be carried on indefineitely. and i cannot think of any evolutionary scenario where gay sex could lead to reproduction. the closest thing would be asexual reproduction, and that is something we have evolved past.

of course, thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.”

““If a man lieth with a man it is an abomination before the lord.”

One of the things I love about Judaism is that it is wide open for differing opinions. There is an old saying, “Ask three rabbis their opinion and you’ll get four answers.”. Some have interpreted this passage that a man shall not lay down with a man as he would with a woman. This can mean that the actual act of penetration is forbidden. Granted, it is a very liberal view and is not held by most Jews.

“Just to complicate matters jewish law technically doesnt apply to gentiles and as such we are only obligated to obey the 11 commandments.”

The ten commandments are for the Jews alone. They do not apply to Gentiles. Gentiles are to follow the seven universal laws of man found in the Adamic and Noahide covenant. Don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t have any G-d before G-d, don’t commit idolatry, don’t eat flesh torn from a live animal, don’t commit adultery and seek to establish courts of law. Only a portion of the Law is incumbent on Gentiles.

http://www.moshiach.com/action/”

“"I'm a little surprised to see you say that, Nigal. You sure have changed since I first encountered you here.”

I usually keep to my own on these things but I see one side saying that there is but one way to G-d because someone said so while at the same time bashing you for your unbelief and for challenging what they hold as true. It is so easy to fling around standard proclamations of the church. Explaining those proclamations is a whole other thing and hasn’t been done here. Unbelief is essential because it is the root of free will. Without unbelief and free will there is no starting point and therefore no ending.

I’m all for peaceful coexistence but, like you, I challenge the exclusivity and evangelizing.”

“I dont think the jewish leaders of the old testament consulted with bill clintons lawyers when they made that particular law....

talmude?... Id argue but I cant comment on a book Ive have never heard of before....perhaps I will get bored sometime in the near future and read it so I can consider its validity.”

“Reading the Talmud would be like sitting down and reading the Encyclopedia Brittanica. LOL! The particular section dealing with the Seven Laws of Noah is found in Talmud Sanhedrin 56a. It is older than Judaism itself.

http://www.geocities.com/rachav/oadnl.html”

“some light reading for pool side....”

“You make some good points and I respect your views.

Where I get my dander up is when someone doesn't respect mine; rather somewhat of a double standard to preach openness and tolerance... unless that person is a Christian, and then it's okay to bash him/her.

I used to be in the atheist/agnostic camp. My faith comes really from two sources. One is personal observation of several occurrances and events in my life which I don't intend to share publicly. The other, and perhaps more apropos, is Pascal's Wager -- obviously one's choice of how to interpret this wager depends on one's weighting of the possible outcomes, so it is still somewhat subjective. I would be curious as to your thoughts on that.”

“mutt, you will appreciate this, the little spock you are. homosexuality is bad for the propagation of the species, any species. gay sex cannot produce offspring. therefore, it is the biological imperative of a species to ostracize any behavior that does not contribute towards furthering species, whether its homosexuality, incest, murder, etc

I see your point, 2scoops, and I agree that IF the propagation of the species was an issue, then you could logically argue that homosexuality is immoral. However, the species currently has no problem propagating itself, and thus the argument is invalid. In fact, a little more homosexuality may do the species some good!

Another point: Gays can procreate. Lesbians can be artificially inseminated. Gay men can inseminate a willing 'host' mother.

Also, I see your point regarding the instinctual impulse to be repulsed by homosexuality, as it could indeed negatively impact the propagation of the species. However, like other such instincts, Modern Man (and I'm using that as a synecdoche for men and women) can control them. However, because it is instinctual to be repulsed by homosexuality, it is that much easier for social institutions to persecute homos. The religious should open their eyes to this negative manifest behavior.”

“i used to be of the pascals wager camp, although i came to the same conclusion that he did on my own, so i did not know that it was all formalized into charts and graphs and actually had a name. my opinion is, J+ is not true faith. i think it must be bittersweet for god when someone cynically believes because there is nothing else better to believe in.”

“my opinion is, J+ is not true faith.

I agree, in and of itself Pascal's Wager is a poor basis for one's faith. It can, however, be that which opens the door to true faith.

Pascal's Wager is also interesting in that it is often taught as an introduction to Game Theory.

Here's another interesting bit. I haven't read the entire paper, but this portion is a good read: Objections to Pascal's Wager”

“im not at all suggesting that homosexuality is evil or immoral. and yes, if more ppl were gay, we'd have less population problems. but our genes dont care about that. the genes want to reproduce themselves over and over. its evolution, baby! and yes, we have been very successful at reproducing ourselves, because of our genetic aggressiveness, because we have shown no mercy.

notice i did not say homosexuals cannot produce offsring. only gay sex. homo sapiens has been around for a couple million years, only recently have we been able to do the things you mentioned, a sliver in time on the evolutionary timetable. that said, i agree with you 100 percent on your point about controlling our natural tendencies.”

“look at the problem from an evolutionary aspect and youll see what im talking about.

also, if you get the chance, read lyall watsons "dark nature: a natural history of evil" he explains it better than i do.”

“If a man lieth with a man it is an abomination before the lord

So for fundamentalists who take the bible literally, it's okay for gay men to have sex while standing or sitting?”

“that's alot of blasohemy for ya”

“So I go away camping for a few days and this thread heads south?! Hmmm. Well, perhaps all the better, as I think enough has been said.

deedawg, your faith in the One Truth seems rational, tested and sound. I am personally grateful for people like you who patiently persisted when I was in my Mutt-esque, Christian-resentful, agnostic days (in certain ways I'm still there, though I believe a *healthy* skepticism can be a good thing).

Arguing from the perspective of Reason can certainly have positive effects... instructive for the listener/watcher, helpful to the genuine questioner, encouraging to the faithful. And it can be fun too. On the other hand, I can't think of a single Christian believer whose conversion was based solely on a water-tight apologetic (a positive thing, actually). At some point, ya just gotta kick your pride's a$$ and get down on the knees, eh?

Arguments with Christian-haters often ends up producing more heat than light, and there is usually no way to gracefully exit and not get accused of being intellectually-inferior (as was done here ...as expected). Nevertheless, I think you were wise to end the debate.

You have done well, servant. Thanks.”

“Lenny Bruce once said,'If you go into my yard to play with my dogs,be careful not to step in a bible'.”