Why gun control is necessary

“Well put Chili. Birth control for moronic individuals is much more important than gun control. If guns are in the house then everyone living there should learn how to use and respect them.”

“Ynamiynami, you're willing to subvert the constitution to further your unfounded perspective - yes that's un-American and no, that's not a provocation - more a statement of fact.

And you seemed to have missed my point - that I agree there is little to no good research on the issue. Absent conclusive scientific evidence, why subvert the constitution? Why is that the tactic people like you always jump to use first? Like Chili said, mandatory firearm education would go much further than more gun control.”

“While I find most of the clamor for defense of the second amendment to be a front for a gun manufacturer lobby, I agree (twice in one day) with Mutt on this issue.

Ynami's a foreigner, Mutt. He is un-american.

;)”

“How bold of you to say that Chili!

I don't believe in banning guns but I also do not think that some measures will end in the gubmit kicking down my door to grab my guns. As with most things the best way lies somewhere in the middle.”

“Exactly, Nigal. Somewhere, there is a balance between all aspects. I am inclined to think we are close to that point.”

“I personally feel every handgun owner should undergo maditory classes and registration. Then again I think if they do this every handgun owner should be able to carry a concealed weapon.”

“There is a lack of research on the matter because it's like comparing apples and oranges.
This report takes some raw statistics and draws simplitic conclusions.
Any report on crime which fails to account for a country's economic prosperity, policing methods, sentencing policies, education and public attitudes, to name but a few issues, is not really worth talking about.
You only have to look at the basic homicide rates in England and the US to understand that you are not comparing like with like.

And as to the whole constitution issue - Surely there's more to being America than slavish devotion to a piece of paper.”

“Shoot, I forgot ynami was from Europe. Government control over the lives of citizens over there is much more accepted and unquestioned than it is here.”

“American - even”

“Surely there's more to being American than slavish devotion to a piece of paper.

LOL. See? European perspective.

And I agree, ynami. But however reductionist this kind of research is, it is worth discussing its merits. Obviously you don't feel that way, so there we are.”

“I'm in favor of gun thread control.”

“"Surely there's more to being America than slavish devotion to a piece of paper."

We also require a slavish devotion to professional sports and beer also so you are correct in this assertion.”

“A gun control thread is necessary to cheeze-off guys like Nigal.”

“"I'm in favor of gun thread control."

Phucking classic!! LOL!”

“But, Nigal, practice has shown if we separate our devotion of beer and firearms, things tend to turn out better.”

“http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

Along with the 15-day background check waiting period, you have to pass this firearm safety and knowledge exam to purchase a handgun in CA. It expires every 5 years.”

“Ynami - when discussing these issues with Americans, it might be useful to you to know that we believe the constitution only recognizes our rights - it doesn't grant them. That's why it's particularly heinous to subvert the constitution - you're not trashing a piece of paper, you're trashing your inherent rights.”

“Actually, I think it's been a while since the last time. By all means, knock yourselves out, <G>”

“So going by that argument - any ammendment to the constitution is actually trashing inherant rights then?

And wouldn't trying to quash any argument against the validity of the constiution violate the constitution itself.

And any attempt to look at it objectively is seen as "trashing" is it?

And if you honestly believe that America is a freer society than much of Europe then I suggest you take a look at some elements of the Patriot act.”

“""

Hey tilt, what's this mean?”

“The Constitution is a living document, it lives and breathes.

If it were old and brittle and unflexible, the Supreme Court would be unnecessary.”

“Chili doesn't that only refect differeing interpretations of the same document - tell me if I'm wrong on this. I'll admit to being no expert on the matter.

Also, I don't want to appear too critical. The constitution laid the framework for America's huge success.”

“oops, gotto keep up with all the postings :o)

Mutt - Of all the pro-gun arguments, and there are some persuasive ones - the whole comparison with other countries is the weakest there is. There is so much wrong with it that I don't think it's worth discussing.”

“Er... what does what mean? <G>

Oh - that's 'G' as in 'Grin'... from the series:

G - Grin
BG - Big Grin
VBG - Very Big Grin
ELVBG - Extremely Large Very Big Grin

If you wnat to use the angle brackets...
< & L T without spaces
> & G T same deal

'& L T G & G T' without spaces becomes '<G>'



LOL Treebeard --- "Heeeeey... You Knocked My Block Off!!"”

“Would you believe it if you were told the first amendment was only written so you could read the Sports page?
So why believe the 2nd amendment is only about owning guns for hunting?

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

“Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at the individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense
- John Adams

does it sound like they were talking about duck hunting?”

“ynami, that is a given.

Some of the best legal minds in the Country sit on the various Circuit Courts of Appeal.

It is not uncommon at all for the various circuits to come to different conclusion on the same issue.

That is one ground for a Writ of Cert to the Supreme Court. To reconcile the various Circuits.

The Constitution is not "chisled in stone" and interpretation is within the purview of the Supreme Court.

The Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in the 1860's; it wasn't until the 1950's that it was interpreted.

Do Supreme Court rulings change? Yes, they do. Capital punishment is an example. Sometimes, a different view or approach leads to a different way of thinking.

Is that bad? No, I don't think so. I think that process is the very thing that keeps the Constitution current, not archaic.

IMHO, it is the greatest document ever drafted and was done so by the right people at the right time to ensure what we had then; what we have today; and what we have tomorrow, will remain durable.

Again, all IMHO.

We don't have to agree on the Supreme Court results, but, bygod, we do have to accept them.”

“"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

“The great body of our citizens shoot less as times go on. We should encourage rifle practice amount schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world… The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!”
- Theodore Roosevelt’s last message to Congress.

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”
- John F. Kennedy

“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.”
- Mahatma Gandhi

“If someone has a gun and is trying ton kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
- the Dalai Lama”

“What a lot of control freaks,

Gun control
Dog control w/leashes

next you will be wanting
..Air traffic control
..bladder control
..birth control
..bowel control
..self control
..strategic arms control

is there nothing that you dont want to control ??

Then you will want to control from a distance leading to

..remote controls”

“That's the problem, when liberals stand up and say we need some control, you can expect a response like manuka's.

Hell, let's take all contols off. Let's take off the requirements for drivers licenses, auto registration and insurance. Repeal the Taft Hartly Act. And WTF was that Mann Act all about anyway. Just another "liberal" control.

I personally think the Supreme Court does a fine job in drawing the line. A careful balance of weighing intrusion against legitimate public policy.”

“I just wish non lethal projectiles were more available to the public than they are. I think it would be nice to have access to 12 ga. bean bags and rubberized pistol rds..

Ohio, I believe, may actually be the first state to fund firearm education in conjunction with the NRA's Eddie the Eagle program. The Labia's call this effort a wolf in sheeps clothing similiar to Joe Camel toe ads in the cig biz. Whatever, I think it's a step in the right direction. And some education is better than none.

I wonder if any studies have been done regarding youth firearm accidents in urban vs. rural settings. Are urban kids less likely to get the necessary firearm education and than a rural farm kid?”

“Good question BR.

However, I have to believe that kids who grow up exposed to proper firearm care are far less prone to accidentally blow someone's head off.”

“Briar Rabbit

Nothing is "non lethal" if used properly. just kidding, but yet its a scary truth.”

“It's a bit of a side issue - but it always amazes me how people are able to distance themselves from problems.
"I'll teach my kids properly."
"That happens in the city."
"That's in (enter a state) - they're all crazy there."

People don't seem to have the ability to see there are problems until they happen right in front of their eyes.”

“I own so many guns I don't know which one to take hunting. I am out of control.”

“Gun control is necessary to hit your target!”

“The best form of gun control would be psychological testing. You can keep your gun if you can pass the test.”

“Psych testing for gun ownership???

Is that test gonna tell when someone is likely to snap? Does a driver ed. course and testing help against DUI's and auto related fatalities.

What next for you Lib's DNA banks?

We already have a class of 'have's and haven'ts' when it comes to gun ownership and the 2nd amend believers.

Why not a Grandfather clause for gun rights. A 2nd amend/ gun ownership right that gets pass on thru the generations.

If antigunners are adamant about doing away with the 2nd and all gun. Why don't they just give up that right for themselves and generation that follow. Since essentially they would be doing that anyway if they had their way and guns were ban.

See on the flip side of gun ownership and 2nd amend rights. That right could only be granted if their was a direct connection to a former gun owner and 2nd amend believer within the family. Either along Paternal or Maternal lines.

Eventually I think the numbers of gun owners would diminish provide there wasn't a rush to purchase that gun right before this Clause went into effect.

Its just a rough idea that would need some work but is it not doable? Would you antigunners fall for something like that.”

“Illegal drug control has really worked!”

“So going by that argument - any ammendment to the constitution is actually trashing inherant rights then?

Um, no. I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. Obviously there is debate over what our rights are, but that's a separate issue from the fact that the constitution recognizes, rather than grants, individual rights.

And wouldn't trying to quash any argument against the validity of the constiution violate the constitution itself.

How do you "quash" free speech? How is refuting an argument "against the validity of the constitution" equal to denying your right to make your argument?

And any attempt to look at it objectively is seen as "trashing" is it?

Obviously it depends on your perspective. The Bill of Rights, imho, is the backbone of American society. I take threats to it very seriously.

And if you honestly believe that America is a freer society than much of Europe then I suggest you take a look at some elements of the Patriot act.

Yes, America is freer than Europe (painting in broad strokes obviously). Europe is bogged down by socialist policies, which is why Europe cannot compete with U.S. industry and technology. That's why Europe - even though they've been striving to - has not become a polar power, and will not for the foreseeable future.

Regarding the Patriot Act, I have to agree that it oversteps government authority. This kind of power grab is exactly why the 2nd amendment is so important.”

“So did illegal alcohol control in the prohibition era.

Some people got very wealthy.”

“I'm all for self control.

Then...the rest is irrelevent”

“Funny though... all the other countries with stricter gun control in Mutt's article have much lower rates of murder than the US.”

“Canda, less than half the murder rate of the US.
Japan and the UK: about 1/5 the rate of the US.
Australia, less than 1/2.

Check the charts at http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap”

“Yes Pedxing, they also have lower incomes, drive fewer commuting miles, and have a different systems of Government.

Both Switzerland and New Zealand have very high gun ownership, do not know exact coorelation to US but their murder rates are low so that makes the gun argument weak. Japan has a very high suicide rate and an extremely low gun ownership rate.

Personally I think a study of the commuting miles is needed, to see if latent road rage is the real factor why US has a higher murder rate.

From a control aspect, I think all these countries have laws making murder illegal.”

“I don't think any of those other countries can match what we got here.

#3 USA @275+ million bodies
#9 Japan @127 mil
#35 Can. @32 mill
#53 AUS. @19 mill
#20 G.B. @60 mill

Add them all up and they still don't even come close to our pop..

Why don't we add their crime rates and see how they compare.

How about comparing education? drug problems?, minority sizes vs majority sizes? inter/intra racial crimes? proverty? etc..

If a firearm ban in the USA would cure the more serious problems that afflict us I would hand some of them over. But it won't,, banning firearms isn't the answer folks.”

“BR - that's the whole thing about these statistics - they're already based on population.
They're usually given in terms of per 100,000 people - but in Ped's link it's per 1,000.”

“Briar: The murder rates are per capita, not for the whole country. They are already adjusted for the difference in population.”

“You can't compare gun liscencing and regulation to prohibition. Banning guns won't work, just like banning alcohol didn't work.

Regulating alcohol has worked.”

“I think the gun control debate is overblow. Having tighter gun control (say mandatory liscensing and registration for any gun) won't be nearly as wonderful as its advocates think, nor as horrible as the opponents think.

For data though, if you look at the over all murder rate you are going to get a muddy picture. As manuka points out so many factors go into the murder rate. It makes more sense to look at the rate of death by guns.”