USA sucks

“*”

“*”

“Human rights groups have slammed the United States for detaining children aged 13 to 15 at the camp in Cuba.”

“The only people who lost their lives for the "freedom" I enjoy in the United States were the Native Americans who lived here for uncounted eons before the Christians arrived with their Capitalist economic system.

I don't want a damn thing from the USA except to be left alone to grow and hunt my own food without suburban sprawl consuming the entire ecosystem around me. I don't want McDonalds. I don't want Wal-Mart. I don't want TV. I don't want to participate in the American status quo at all, but I still get it crammed down my throat every day.

Cherish my freedom? What freedom? Freedom to choose among fifteen breakfast cereals made by the same four giant conglomorates? I don't think so.”

“MOYERS: You recently did a very radical thing. You called on the children of Abraham — Muslims, Christians and Jews — to engage in an act of refusal.
HOUGH: Well, my perception, Bill, is that there is a definite intentional move on the part of political leadership in this country. In the direction that I think is not at all compatible with the prophetic tradition in Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. And that is the obligation on the part of people who believe in God to care for the least and the poorest. That central teaching, that sacred code, I think, is very well summed up in Proverbs where the writer of Proverbs says, "Those who oppress the needy insult their maker." "Those who oppress the needy insult their maker."

And I think that it would be a wonderful thing if we could stand together, these three great Abrahamic traditions, and say, "Look, we do not countenance this sort of thing. It is not only unfair, it is immoral on the basis of our religious traditions, and we believe it's an insult to God."

MOYERS: And it is what?

HOUGH: The growing gap between the rich and the poor which has become almost obscene by anybody's standards, and the stated intentional policy of bankrupting the government so that in the future there'll be no money for anything the federal government would decide to do.

MOYERS: We've all heard this from economists.

HOUGH: Yes.

MOYERS: And political pundits, and analysts, think tank experts. But we're hearing this from the president of a seminary?

HOUGH: Yeah. You are. And the reason you are is because I think that it's not just a political pundit issue. It's not just a think tank issue. It is a deep and profound theological issue. And it has to do with whether we are faithful to the deepest convictions called for by our faith.

Because the central teaching of Jesus is-announced when he says, from Isaiah 61, "God has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, deliverance to the captives, freedom to the oppressed, and the year of Jubilee." And as you know, the year of Jubilee was the year when land reform was supposed to take place, debts were to be canceled, slaves freed.

Jesus drew from that Jewish tradition, that Covenental tradition, and the obligation to care for the needy. Jesus Christ was a Jew. To his soul, he was a Jew. By the time he was 11 years old, people were absolutely astounded how well he knew the Jewish tradition.

He crafted his message in direct connection to the Jewish tradition, and it was no accident that Luke put Isaiah 61 in Jesus' mouth at Nazareth. "The spirit of God is upon me because God has anointed me to preach good news to the poor." If you go through the Gospel to Luke, the entire theme of Luke is this.

It appears also in the Sermon on the Mount. It appears indirectly in the feeding of the five thousand or four thousand, whichever you want. It's reported four times in the Gospel, more than any other single event in the life of Jesus. In every case, and it also, in a way, it foreshadows the Eucharist. Because the Eucharistic meal was first a meal for the people who were the followers of Jesus. And if you look it Acts 3, you will see that those followers of Jesus saw to it that people who didn't have enough to eat could come to that table and get enough to eat. That was the radical model they put out there. Nobody likes to talk about that very much. But there it is. Right in the middle of Acts.

And they continued to worship in the temple. This is a continuity with the best in the Jewish tradition, and it is also no accident that there's some strong similarities in the Koran. And that is why I think all of us in the Abrahamic traditions who share this conviction about care for the least fortunate should simply make some kind of public declaration that enough is enough. We've gone far enough.

And it is not at all in the spirit of American democracy to generate inequality, and to contradict equal opportunity in our society. Those are not the norms we've lived by.

MOYERS: Again, I come back to the paradox, which is that-these policies to which you are protesting, which you say are immoral-were enacted by a Congress and an Administration elected to a significant degree with the support of the religious right — Conservative Christians who got active in politics and saw that their candidates were elected, and they're seeing now the policies that they believe they elected those officials to carry out.

HOUGH: Well. That's true, Bill, but my Dad, as I told you, is a Baptist preacher. He was until he was 84. And there was a notorious drunk in town who when he got drunk, he really went after preachers. But he said he was born-again Christian. And one day, someone asked my father if he thought Brother Suggs was a born-again Christian. And my father said, "Only God knows that."

But, you know, the Lord Jesus said, "By their fruits, you shall know them." And speaking as a humble fruit inspector of the Lord, I'd say that if this person is a Born Again Christian, there's a mixed signal somewhere." I feel the same way.

If Tom Delay is acting out of his Born Again Christian convictions in pushing legislation that disadvantages the poor every time he opens his mouth, I'm not saying he's not a Born Again Christian, but as a the Lord's humble fruit inspector, it sure looks suspicious to me. And anybody who claims in the name of God they're gonna run over people of other nations, and just willy-nilly, by your own free will, reshape the world in your own image, and claim that you're acting on behalf of God, that sounds a lot like Caesar to me.

MOYERS: Can a secular democracy, in a pluralistic society, where there are many faiths, including people of no faith, can that democratic government be expected to represent the religious, prophetic imperatives of people like you?

HOUGH: Well, maybe so, maybe not, Bill. But I'm getting tired of people claiming they're carrying the banner of my religious tradition when they're doing everything possible to undercut it. And that's what's happening in this country right now. The policies of this country are disadvantaging poor people every day of our lives and every single thing that passes the Congress these days is disadvantaging poor people more.

MOYERS: I don't think even conservatives dispute that the inequality is growing in this country. You somehow sense that inequality is more profoundly disruptive and dangerous than others.

HOUGH: I think some inequality in terms of economics is necessary. That doesn't alarm me a great deal. It is the obscene degree to which economic inequality has taken hold in America that I think is highly questionable. There is no justification under Heaven for some corporate executives to make 1,000 times as much as their average worker. Their contribution may me great. But it's no less than Peter Drucker, my colleague at Claremont for 25 years, said…

MOYERS: Management guru par excellence.

HOUGH: Management guru and certainly nobody's fuzzy headed liberal. Peter Drucker says, "This compromises the integrity of a corporate executive. Why?" Because it does not accept, and it does not in any way acknowledge the incredible contributions of people who work at various levels, the various constituencies of a corporation to its well being. It is driven by other factors than acknowledgement of who contributes to the well being of the corporation.

Now Bill, I'm not naive. Nobody believes that everybody can be exactly the same, get the same. But there's certain bare minimums, what Amartya Sen, my favorite development economist calls. A Nobel Prize winner, Amartya Sen calls the capability to function in society. And Sen says that no society can claim to be fair if there are substantial number of its citizens who are not receiving enough assistance or income to have the capability to function. Now, what does that mean? It means to buy food, to have a place to live, to have their children educated, to get reasonable health care and a job.

And we want to ask the people of our traditions to join us is asking every single political leader we encounter, "What are you gonna do in order to help make this happen?" Let's make that the litmus test of whether or not we're gonna vote for a particular leader.

It's not a partisan issue. I mean, my God, who in the world could possibly stand up and say, "I'm a Christian. I don't think we should really give much attention to the life of the poor." Some do. But I don't think it's a party line thing.

I mean, I'd like for this debate to be carried on in such a way that we could, and here I'm talking about Abrahamic traditions. We could ask ourselves "What changes in the direction of this country are necessary if it really is gonna make a claim to be a democracy?" We're not asking it to be a theocracy. A democracy. That's what it's about. Politically, that's what it's about.

MOYERS: It's about?

HOUGH: It is about whether Democrats and Republicans who are sensitive to this move, where people who are sensitive to this move in our society politically, are able to get the will to say, "Enough is enough." I mean, let's stop this business, and let's look again and ask the question, "What will really make this a country that we can be proud of, and one that that pays attention to all the people, not just a few."

MOYERS: A recent Nobel Laureate has said that he thinks the time is coming for civil disobedience again. What do you think about that?

HOUGH: I think it may come to that. I think it may come to that - I really do. I don't know what form it's to take. It's got to be civil disobedience that is not destructive. One of the problems I have with some of the demonstrations against for example, the WTO and at Davos.

MOYERS: The World Trade Organization?

HOUGH: The World Trade Organization, and the Davos conferences one of the problems I have with those is that some people seem just bent on destruction and violence. And I think Martin Luther King's exactly right. If you try to advance your cause with violence, you provoke violence, and the way the world is structured, if you try to promote your cause with violence, you're gonna lose. The only way to promote your cause is civil disobedience and the willingness to take the consequences for it. And I think we're just about there.

MOYERS: Joe Hough, thank you very much.

HOUGH: Thank you.”

“...Iraqis were jubilant. "The Americans are pigs. We will hold a celebration because this helicopter went down -- a big celebration," said wheat farmer Saadoun Jaralla near the crash site. "The Americans are enemies of mankind."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3738273”

“"In a long, hard war, we're going to have tragic days, as this is," Rumsfeld told ABC's "This Week." "But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated."

Rumsfeld said portable surface-to-air missiles "are widely available and do have the ability to shoot down a helicopter, and from time to time, this happens."

The White House said it mourned the deaths of the 17 soldiers and two civilians but that American resolve was unshakable.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/02/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Didn't Bush say the war was over, yet here we have Rummy calling it a war.”

“BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH”

“WASHINGTON, Nov. 3 — Linda Tripp will get more than $595,000 from the Defense Department to settle a lawsuit over the release of confidential personal information about her to a magazine, her lawyers said Monday.”

“Helpful Fact:

The ignore feature will eliminate a wide screen caused by a continuous string of characters."
Coop
10:02:46 PM”

“$”

“By Jay Shaft, Coalition For Free Thought In Media[CFTM] - I had the unique opportunity to interview five US military servicemen who just got back from Iraq, or in the case of two men, corresponded with their wives so that I could ask questions of these soldiers by mail.
When the two I corresponded with came back just last week, I was able to complete the interviews I started several months ago with some new details on how the war is actually going.

I was shocked and angered when I found out how many of the service men hate being in Iraq and want nothing to do with rebuilding and policing the devastated nation.

From the conversations I had, many soldiers never wanted to go over to Iraq and fight, and the ones who had were now convinced of the awful crime that had been committed against Iraq and our own troops.

I was told very few soldiers now believe in staying in Iraq, or want to stay in the country and serve any more days.

The following interview was with an enlisted man, but someone very high up in the enlisted ranks, with over 20 years of military service.

I have promised not to reveal his identity for reasons that he has a family and has been told not to speak to journalists.

He told me the Army had put a gag order on him while he was home, and told him they would give him twenty years in prison if he spoke out in any manner against the US or the government.

I took several weeks to finish this interview because of not being able to safely be seen with this individual out of his fears of being caught speaking out.

He asked me to call him USA in all the transcripts of these interviews. I have followed his wishes and tried to write what he said in the manner it was said so as not to lose any impact.

At times the interview was very rough and the grammar is not perfect, but I tried to write this in his voice so that he can tell the world how bad it is in Iraq. I truly want you to feel what he has experienced in some way if possible.

CFTM-- “How are you today? Resting I hope?”

USA-- “Can’t sleep for #&%!$ and I have horrible nightmares when I do sleep. I might be lucky to catch an hour at a time before the nightmares wake me up. I slept easier in the combat then now that I’m away from there.

"Most awful place I’ve ever been or served duty and I didn’t want to leave my guys. That was the hardest part was leaving the guys I had been leading around and trying to keep out of trouble and alive.”

CFTM--“Did you see a lot of your buddies get killed? How did it affect you?”

USA--“How the hell do you think it affected me? I saw over 30 of the men I had to keep safe die, and over 100 get wounded and not come back. I still don’t know if some of the wounded men made it or not. I was never told before I came back home.”

CFTM-- “So it really was awful and as bad as some returning troops have claimed?”

USA-- “It was like a long trip to hell that you knew you might return from. Of course it is as bad as the soldiers say it is. Hell it’s even worse if the truth has to come out.

"It’s a constant #&%!$ing nightmare trying to figure out where the guerillas are going to hit, how to keep the civilians calm, and also getting enough water and food to eat.

"That is one thing the media never really told the Americans about, how bad it was when our convoys weren’t getting through. We had to go to some Iraqi people and trade socks and underwear for some food and a little water.”

CFTM--“You really did get that desperate because I saw it in the foreign media that the Iraqi civilians had stepped in and fed a whole bunch of troops that had been days without food.”

USA-- -“Yeah, that ain’t no joke about getting help from the civilians right after the invasion. We had a pretty good laugh about that and how the army owed them some money for reimbursement.

"We would not have starved probably, but when we got the food from the people it made sure we could still operate as a functioning unit. It was a near thing that several guys almost died of dehydration because we ran out of clean water for a few days.”

CFTM-- “Just keep going, I want to hear more about the hardships the military and Bush made you go through. I want the American people to know what a nightmare this war has become and what it’s doing to our service men over there.”

USA-- “Okay, well I can #&%!$ about the problems like food being short and water going bad, but I want to tell people about how bad the attacks on US and coalition forces have gotten in the last month.

"In the last two weeks I was there we were attacked at least 20 times a day if you count all the shots we heard from random sniper or opportunity attacks. We were losing at least five men a day to injuries and there was at least one of our unit killed every twenty four hours.”

CFTM--“So you were getting one a day killed and at least five injured? Did you know many of the guys killed?”

USA-- “That’s a real dumb fu..ing question to ask me. You know what my rank is, of course I knew them, I was the head NCO for years in our unit. I knew most of the guys who died and I held a lot of hands as they were dying. You tell me that’s not gonna to give you nightmares!”

“I had one guy tell me all he wanted was to see his little daughter; she was born three days after the war started. He died in the sand holding my hand and crying because his daughter would never know him. Tell me that’s #&%!$ing right. Where was George Bush when this kid was gasping for air and spitting his blood on foreign soil?”

CFTM-- "I talked to you about this the other day. Do you think George Bush is the wrong man to order troops into battle when he ducked it himself?”

USA-- "That #&%!$ went AWOL and never showed up for duty and then he has the nerve to take us into two different wars that will be going on for years. I do not believe he should be president of this country, he’s a complete idiot and he’s controlled by madmen with a drive for only profits and getting oil.”

CFTM-- “I just have to get this straight for the public, you are well educated are you not? I mean you have had years of leadership training and schools right? You sound very well informed and aware of the current lies and manipulations, which I have not found in some other soldiers.”

USA-- “I have a four year degree in the economics field and I am not a soldier all the time. I am Reservist who just keeps getting caught on long duty assignments.

"Believe it or not I read authors like Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, and Jim Hightower, and went through three copies of ‘Stupid White Men’ by Michael Moore while I was over there.

"I let people read parts of Mike’s book and they were irate that Bush had screwed us so hard. I had parts of ‘Best Democracy Money Can Buy’ mailed to me because I knew if I had the whole book it would get stolen in a heartbeat.”

CFTM --“So you might be quite a bit more aware and well informed about the real reasons for the war that others did not know. I don’t know of many line soldiers reading Greg Palast or Noam Chomsky.”

USA-- “I guess you’re right and that might be why I am trying to speak out and let the Americans know that they are sending us to be slaughtered.

"If you don’t mind I am going to cut through all the niceties and get down to why I am going against every oath I took and giving you this interview. I am doing it for the guys still over there and for the ones who are going. If I’m not careful I’ll end up back there for another six months.”

CFTM-- “Alright tell me what it was really like and don’t skip the gory details. I want people to be shocked and offended enough to realize why you spoke out and what it is doing to our military by sending them over there with blind flag waving and cheers of false victory”

USA-- “Well the first thing I would like to thank Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Congress for is that nice huge cut they made to Veterans Benefits as soon as the war started.

"I am in the Reserves after years of active duty and now I cannot get PTSD counseling or many medical benefits I used to take for granted. I knew I would have the benefits because I was laying my life down for my country.

"Now my benefits are cut by around 2/3 and I have to go to either group therapy or pay for a private counselor out of my own pocket. What happens when someone like me has been through enormous battle stress and combat fatigue and then comes home to no counseling?”

“I’ll tell you what is going to happen, he will either kill himself or take a bunch of people with him. Some of the guys coming back are going to have gone through the worst time of their lives with their buddies dying and getting hurt, and then they’ll find out they got screwed out of any counseling.

"It is the greatest disservice America is committing against soldiers who fought for this country and may come back wounded or horribly scarred.

"Medical services, school aid to dependents, school aid for the vets, all slashed to the bare bones; mental health and drug and alcohol counseling are being eliminated or the waiting lists will be years long for whatever services manage to survive.”

“That is one thing the American people still have not really caught on to is the fact that while they were screaming out ‘Support Our Troops’ the current regime makers were fu..ing the military and veterans out of almost every social program and non essential service that would make life easier.”

“Bush really #&%!$ed us while we were gone. We found out about after being in the middle of heavy fighting for several weeks. It was one of the first things I read in Stars and Stripes, and I thought it was a joke because it was just to hard to believe Congress and our leaders would screw us that bad while we were fighting and dying.”

CFTM-- “Glad you brought that up about counseling because I wasn’t even aware of it. Are you alright to talk about some of the civilian casualties you witnessed and some of the horrifying images you told me about when we first started talking?”

USA-- “I want to talk about some of the children I saw killed for no reason, maybe it will wake someone up who doesn’t believe it was happening, or that it was very bad.

"I can tell you I will never forget the screams of the wounded or orphaned kids, or the wailing of the parents who lost their kids. The Iraqis and most Muslims have a very vocal way of mourning the dead by lamenting and wailing for the dead.

"There is no mistaking a mother or father crying out in pain for the loss of a child. They don’t cry like that unless there has been a death. Sometimes after a bombing raid or an artillery attack you could here hundreds of people wiling and weeping.”

“I have several grown children with grand kids about the age of most of the dead children I saw in Iraq. I also have several kids who are about half grown and I saw a lot of Iraqi children that age wandering around in charge of three or four little ones because their parents were dead.”

“Let me tell you about the cluster bomb raid we saw wipe out a whole bunch of little kids. It looked like they had already lost their parents and were trying to salvage food from a destroyed Iraqi convoy by the side of the road we were on.

"The kids were way off to the side about half a mile away by then when we got the word that the Iraqi column was going to be hit with cluster bombs and we had to clear the area. We got on the radio and tried to get the air strike stopped but we were told it was too late to get it stopped.”

“We could see the body parts flying up into the air after the bombs hit. It was terrible and we could not do a damn thing but watch it happen and scream into the radio at the dumb sh.t pilot that was dropping the bombs.

"After the strike was over we went to see if there were any survivors and all we found was bits and pieces of little kids and here and there an arm or leg you could still identify.”

CFTM-- “Pretty rough stuff to have to see. Did that kind of thing happen a lot?”

USA-- "More than you can imagine until you’ve seen it over and over again. Man I don’t want to talk about this sh.t anymore. It doesn’t help to talk about it because it just makes me think about it again. I can’t even get any counseling without having to pay for it.”

“Let all those people who support our troops in on that nice surprise that Bush gave us. That’s how much we really mean to Bush, the Department of Defense and all those other stupid #&%!$s who keep saying how good we’re doing over there.

"Let those patriotic morons go and fight and die for our country. Let them leave their families behind for months and maybe come back home in a box. I’ll be the first one to salute them or honor them when they die.”

“It’s just like Nam was in the beginning. I was twelve when my dad got back and I’ll never forget the pain and agony he lived with the rest of his life. Its kind of what I feel now, I suppose.

"I never thought I would ever serve in some stuff that’s so much like Nam it isn’t funny. Now I really see what my pop went through, and if I could I would go back in the past a few months, I would go AWOL or turn conscientious objector on them, but it’s too late for that now.”

“I damn sure will not go back over there even if they throw me in Leavenworth. I never could understand how a guy could be a conscientious objector until what I just went through.

"I wish more guys would stand up and tell Bush and the Pentagon they will not fight their war for oil. We should not have to die for these rich bastards profits and enrichment.”

CFTM--“Thank you for taking the risk and talking to me. I know there will be other soldiers who can’t speak out who will thank you for having the courage.”

USA--“It isn’t about courage it’s a matter of what’s right. This war is killing the poor or middle class American men and women who went in the armed forces to have college or some kind of better future.

"You don’t see the rich kids joining up or any Senator’s kid dying in Iraq. It’s us little guys who are dying over there or getting disabled for life. Where are the leaders that are supposed to be looking out for the little man?

"They are elected to look after out interests not the interests of Cheney and Halliburton, or any of the rest of the fat cats piling up the profits while the blood of our soldiers flows over their hands.”

CFTM-- “Anything else you want to say to America? Any final thoughts or words?”

USA--“Yeah! Wake up America! Your sons and daughters are dying for nothing! This war is not about freedom or stopping terrorism. Bring us home now! We are dying for oil and corporate greed!”"”

“(CBS/AP) A federal judge granted the government's request Thursday to shut down a company, operating as Rx Depot and Rx of Canada, which helps customers buy cheaper prescription drugs from Canada.

The decision by U.S. District Judge Claire Eagan is a blow to customers who use the company to purchase less expensive medicines. It also could affect cities and states nationwide that are considering allowing employees to import drugs in order to cut rising prescription costs.

An estimated 1 million to 2 million Americans buy Canadian drugs through the Internet, storefront operations or by crossing the border.

Another reason the USA is inferior to Canada. Right 2scoops?”

“then move there, and quit your bizching”

“i dont even disagree with alot of your views, i just get tired of you obsessing on it”

“Wow, all these threads tonight almost make it seem like I'm at Indymedia or DU.com”

“why dont you take all that energy that you put into cutting and pasting anti-american articles and put it into changing things for the better, or moving to somewhere you would like. quit dragging us into your little world of hate. many of us (myself included) have been guilty of too much complaining, but man, youre just a broken record”

“PANAMA CITY, Panama (AP) -- Now here's a stunner: The defending champion U.S. baseball team will be at home next summer while countries like the Netherlands and Italy compete for an Olympic medal in Athens.

Manager Frank Robinson and his team of mostly minor leaguers were beaten at their own game, falling to Mexico 2-1 Friday -- a loss that eliminated them from a qualifying tournament with no second chances.



The Americans were among the favorites to win in Greece. There was even a chance future Hall of Famer Roger Clemens would have pitched for them.

Not to be.

"I can't believe it!" said Tom Lasorda, who managed the 2000 U.S. team to the gold in Sydney. "It's a shock and a disgrace that the Americans won't be represented in the Olympics."

"Baseball is America's game," he said. "It doesn't belong to the Japanese or the Cubans or the Koreans or the Italians. This is sad, very sad."

Lasorda's team had Ben Sheets, Roy Oswalt and Doug Mientkiewicz in the first Olympic tournament that included professionals.

"I know Roger Clemens wanted to play. That would've been a big draw for them. That's a shame, because they've got some good players on that team," Mientkiewicz said.

"It would've been nice to go out there and defend it, but now they're not going to get that chance," the Minnesota first baseman said. "I feel for all those guys. It's going to be hard to watch the Olympics now, that's for sure."

The Mexican team was a heavy underdog in this quarterfinal game, but got a tiebreaking home run in the ninth inning from Luis A. Garcia off Brian Bruney.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/olympics/11/07/team.usa.ap/index.html?cnn=yes”

“give it rest”

“Terms of Participation


* Many posts of the same message within a short period of time on a single thread
* Creation of multiple off topic threads within a short time period
* Purposefully trying to mislead other posters through the use of a spoofed username
* Posts that demean a country, nation, religion, or particular group of people”

“Fraud Rampant At Auto Dealerships

WASHINGTON, Dec. 9, 2003
(AP) A consumer group wants all state attorneys general to investigate fraud at auto dealerships, saying dealers regularly bilk customers out of hundreds of dollars through price manipulation and costly financing deals.

In a report released Monday, Public Citizen cited as an example of fraud an offer for an anti-theft program that etches the vehicle's identification number in the window glass.

The service should cost about $100, Public Citizen said, but dealers charged as much as $500. In some cases, customers paid and the service wasn't provided.

Public Citizen, a Washington-based group, said customers also may not be told they got the etch service, so they aren't aware that they're eligible for an insurance payment of up to $2,500 if the vehicle is stolen.

The organization based its 71-page report on the allegations of Duane Overholt, who worked as an auto salesman in Florida for 20 years before going to federal prosecutors with accusations against his former employer, Charlotte, N.C.-based Sonic Automotive Inc. Sonic Automotive didn't return a telephone call seeking comment Monday.

The group also reviewed lawsuits against dealers filed in nine states.

The National Automobile Dealers Association said Public Citizen's report focuses on some extreme cases of fraud in an industry that employs 1.2 million people and sells 40 million new and used vehicle each year.

"To suggest that this is part of some kind of national conspiracy is absurd," Chairman Alan Starling said in a statement. "To indict an entire industry is a great disservice to the overwhelming majority of auto dealers who treat each of their customers in an honest and open manner."

But Claybrook warned that "auto dealers will do almost anything to sell a car." She said customers should not obtain financing through a dealership and should remember that dealers make money from add-ons, even if they say that something is being offered for free. Customers also should refuse to sign any blank financial forms, as they are sometimes asked to do if the sale is completed after hours.”

“I have an ex brother in law that is one of those slimy finance guys at a dealership in S. Fl. He used to brag about screwing the old people on interest rates and selling useless crap like different warranty packages and insurance programs. He thought it was great to take advantage of people.

I know that everybody has to make a living and "caveat emptor" is the rule of the day, but there comes a point when it's pure greed and knowing your lieing and misleaading that it approaches criminal.

Same guy laughed about splashing a huge mudpuddle on a bike rider while in his big pickup truck.

I got to where I wouldn't let him in my house.”

“funny that USA would post on a thread that revealed the fact that he sucks.”

“he must do yoga or something....”

“"he must do yoga or something...."

Ever see the movie Saving Silverman? There's a yoga scene in that that is funny as all hell!”

“hmmm....i can't remember seeing it. i'll rent it sometime.”

“Go live in Iraq then!”

“KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- Six children have been found crushed to death by a collapsed wall after a U.S. assault on a compound in Afghanistan, the U.S. military says.

Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty said Wednesday it was not clear whether the children, along with two adults also killed, died as a direct result of the raid on Friday in the city of Gardez.

A day later, nine children died following a U.S. airstrike in the central Afghan village of Petaw, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) southwest of Kabul.






15 children killed at the hands of America. You must be proud.”

“Last Sunday I watched an hour-long news program about fraud in automotive dealerships. It was amazing to hear of how they try to suck you in by making you feel like they're taking care of you when they're actually lieing to your face and stabbing you in the back during the process. They'll tack on unnecessary expenses and hope you don't notice, work with banks for higher interest loans then get kickbacks (ie. share the profits), and even add expenses on after you sign the agreement then forge your name on the new agreement...and that's not even the half of it.”

“I'm so lucky when it comes to cars. I've bought my Jeeps from the same dealer and same salesman for the last 10 years. I always get the lowest price and I always get free stuff thrown in (bug gaurds and such). I know I can trust my salesman and my last Jeep I actually bought it over the phone! My salesman called on the last day of the month and said, "What's it gonna take to get you in a new Jeep?". We told him the payments we wanted and he got us very close (we were hiballing), he took my trade sight unseen and I got six grand off. I asked what they had and chose the one I wanted over the phone and 1/2 an hour later I was signing the papers and driving off in my new Jeep.”

“"Also not to get off the topic too much, but let me know if there is a thread on this somewhere.
My brother (52 yrs old, wicked smart) Sez our government sets up the American man/woman/child to only fail. There is nothing that inspires people to have a positive outlook anymore. Everything is based on economy and the stocks which all know are controlled by the wealthy. Company's are pulling out of here like we have the plague, college costs are sky rocketing, inflations sucks, unemployment is getting worse by the minute, The rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is shrinking. We don't don't make or produce anything, we are basically a service country now, so having pride in your craft is gone.
We have been repressed as a country if you ask me....
Whats the answer or solution?
I have now Idea and if I did It would get squashed anyhow!"
snafu29
08:06:32 AM
12/16/03
ignore this user”

“(CBS) When Mary Cohn tried to sue the company that built her home for producing a house filled with defects, she didn't exactly find a welcome mat at the courthouse.

"Our home was infiltrated with mold and water. It made my children ill living in this home," Cohn says.

Unknown to Cohn, there was a waiver included in her closing papers which forfeited her right to file a lawsuit, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Acosta.

"It's a rigged poker game," she says.

The dispute had to be settled through binding arbitration.

"This is the finest consumer defect case that I've seen in my career and you're going to lose it," Jim Moriarty, a consumer fraud attorney, told Cohn.

Consumer advocates claim arbitration rules are designed to protect business. Instead of a courtroom, cases are tried in a private conference room. Instead of a judge and jury, there's an arbitrator whose decisions are almost always final.

After finding structural flaws in their home, Lynda and Jerry Reier faced arbitration with their builder. "The whole house was crooked," says Lynda Reier.

The Reiers didn't win their arbitration and were told they had to pay the builder. The builder's award would have been $53,000, but the Reiers say they were able to prove their arbitrator had not disclosed a prior relationship with the builder's attorney. A court agreed and tossed out the award.

Big business defends arbitration clauses, which are showing up in the fine print of all sorts of contracts from credit cards to long distance phone service.

"They've become common because the courts have become clogged and litigation has become extremely expensive," says Stephen Bokat, general counsel at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

The American Arbitration Association insists in its system most consumers win.

"It's very very difficult for an individual to take on a corporation in a lawsuit," says Rich Naimark of the American Arbitration Association. "They'll outlast you. They'll outspend you. They'll drive you into the ground if they choose to do that," he says.

Unable to sue and opposed to arbitration, Mary Cohn instead put a sign on her house blasting her home builder. Now, the builder is suing her.”

“why do you continue to post to a thread that says you suck?”

“ATHENS, Greece — Bronze is the best the American men's basketball team can do, and the reason is simple: They were beaten by a better team, Argentina.
Manu Ginobili scored 29 points to lead his nation to another victory over the country that used to dominate the sport, an 89-81 win in the Olympic semifinals.

For the first time since 1988, the gold medal will not go to the Americans. And for the first time since pro players were added for the original Dream Team in 1992, the United States will not be the Olympic champion.”

“Thats what happens when a bunch of trash-talking millionaires run into a team that plays basketball. The Dream Team knew how to play the game - they weren't stymied by the same kind of zone defense I used with my Little Dribblers team. Maybe next time we'll consider sending a team to the olympics instead of 12 gangstas who can't score from 20'.

But USA DOES NOT SUCK. We've taken more than our share of heavy metal home. The two guys pole vaulting tonight were awesome taking gold & silver. I even know a gold medalist now. One of my daughter's class-mates, Dana Vollmer, got a gold medal and a world record last week swimming the 4x200 freestyle relay. It's all good.”

“U are watching the mens olympics Hahaha that is funny i didnt know peopel watched the male olympics!!!

Try watching the womens they rock

Soccer= GOLD pretty happy bout that”

“i hope that didnt happen!!

IS that the US??

That would be tragic :D”

“Well, Lizard that is broken, we do watch the American athlete performances. That may be male or female performances. And though for some of us, it may be preferable to watch the female athletes, I would expect part of your US heritage to also root for the American male athletes. But, hey, maybe not.

Check out the Track and Field, where the Americans have been dominating. Bronze, Silver, Gold in the 400m and the 200m.”

“And we rocked in the made-for-t.v. sport of women's beach volleyball!”

“Are the olympics still on? I stopped watching when I was 12.”

“I thought you meant the TT person USA.”

“aren't they the same person?”

“We can win more golds than any other country, break world records all over the place, and we have one bad men's basketball team and now the "USA" sucks? That's liberal thinkin' for ya. Find one bit of negative, pessmistic news amongst the happy good stuff and bring it to the top and emphasize the crap out of it. WeeEEEEeeeEEEeee!”

“btw, i meant 'USA' and 'Alaska'.”

“Gold medals and world records in doping.”

“(AP) America's reputation around the world is hurting, according to a series of coordinated polls published Friday from 10 countries, including many of the United States' closest allies.

In eight of the countries where the surveys commissioned by major newspapers were conducted, more people said their view of America had worsened in the past two to three years than improved. That question was asked in nine countries.

By big margins, those questioned said the war in Iraq did not aid the global fight against terrorism.

And in eight out of 10 nations, those polled said — often in landslide proportions — that they hoped to see Democrat John Kerry beat President Bush in next month's election. Bush won backing from a majority of respondents only in Russia and Israel.

The polls were conducted in Canada, France, Britain, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Mexico, Israel and Russia, with results to be published in the participating newspapers on Friday. Not all questions were asked in every country.

On average, 57 percent of those questioned said their opinions of America had worsened over the past two to three years, compared with 20 percent who said their view had improved. That question was asked in nine of the countries, but not in Russia.

Seventy-four percent of Japanese, 70 percent of French, 67 percent of South Koreans, 64 percent of Canadians and 60 percent of Spaniards said they had a worse opinion of America now than two to three years ago.


[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/15/world/main649513.shtml[url]”