Understanding Conservatives

“I hate to be mean, but do you really think that the brisket would be kosher for such an event?

er....

Tree, ignore bacpac. He's a putz.”

“.....as the liberals circle their wounded........”

“Actually the bacon would be the suspect one but I'm not forbidden from eating pork.

Porkin' in the mornin',
Porkin' at super time,
Ain't we got fun?”

“Yeah, Baume, thanks for pointing out the personal attack. Jerk.”

“Nigal, you meathead!”

“Its a weird world, Mutt.

The Saudi royals throw a bone to the mullahs by allowing them to run the education "system".
The Saudi capitalists and politicians run the country and seem to be playing both sides.
The world's dependence on petroleum feeds the madness.

Jump back Jack, its gonna blow!

Bush foreign policy ensures tension and escalating violence and increased military spending(the most expensive kind of foreign policy).

Parasites feed off of the military spending and encourage more and more.”

“Had a feeling that's what they were talking about. My kids are fine, well adjusted children. Just good Americans, like those guys!”

“phaedrus, personally i didn't think it needed to be clarified. i would have thought that a person of any speed would have caught that one.

then again, i could be wrong on the whole point, in which case, i will have made my own personal attack.”

“I still think that throwing diplomacy out the window on this whole issue cost America dearly. There is value to building alliances and staying true to it. The monetary price tag (aside from the rising body count) is definitely more expensive than if we had not blown the coalition forming phase...”

“That's what I'm talkin' about, Treebeard, >:^O”

“Is it just me or do all the poli threads dry up RIGHT at quitting time?”

“Dang right Nigal, I've got more important stuff to do at home that post with a buncha nitwits.”

“LOL! I'm reporting you to the head librarian and she'll take her knitting needles to you every time you get close to the keyboard.”

“diplomasy? geesh mang, you can't diplomacy with ruthless, brutal evil dictators. did you not see the torture tape? oh yeah....it wasn't on CNN.....


we should have used more diplomacy with stalin and hitler and togo.....”

“"togo" ? ? ?

YOu talkin' about Toto?
He was such a cute little doggie!

Maybe it was Tojo Hidecki?
He was responsible for taking Indonesia in early '42 so that Imperial Japan would have control over an oil source.
Hmmmmmm, pre-emptive invasion to control oil reserves.”

“Err Strat - we did use diplomacy with Stalin (albeit with the backup of military force) - don't remember invading the USSR.”

“What's Strats beef with Toto?



It's not in the way that you hold me
It's not in the way you say you care
It's not in the way you've been treating my friends
It's not in the way that you'll stay till the end
It's not in the way you look or the things that you say that you do

Hold the line
Love isn't always on time

It's not in the words that you told me
It's not in the way you say you're mine
It's not in the way that you came back to me
It's not in the way that your love set me free
It's not in the way you look or the things that you say that you do

Hold the line
Love isn't always on time

It's not in the words that you told me
It's not in the way you say you're mine
It's not in the way that you came back to me
It's not in the way that your love set me free
It's not in the way you look or the things that you say that you do

Hold the line
Love isn't always on time

It's not in the way that you hold me
It's not in the way that you make me feel
You see
It's all about the way you do the things you do
The way you do it
You've got to hold it
Hold it

Hold the line
Love isn't always on time”

“"What's Strats beef with Toto? "
Nigal



That stratboy is a sick puppy.”

“Hippies!”

“Rape of Nanking Tojo
China really misses him!”

“I've just been offered a position to basically campaign for Dean from Feb. - November next year, with full salary, benefits, etc.

After reading this conservative poopoo, I'm leaning towards doing it.”

“I think it could be fun BB. Change of scene and all that - I guess you get to back to your old job if you want it afterwards?”

“Dean's got my vote in the primary.”

“A-B-B!”

“commies”

“Buddha Bear,,,remember your friends when you head up the NLRB.”

“Published on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 by the Inter Press Service
Chickenhawk Groupthink?
by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - In a 1972 book, 'Victims of Groupthink: A Psychology Study of Foreign-Policy Decisions and Fiascoes', Irving Janis identified the Vietnam War and the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba as particularly compelling examples of how very smart people can collectively make very stupid decisions.

In studying the Bay of Pigs, for example, Janis noted that the group around President John Kennedy made a series of assumptions -- that Cubans would welcome the invasion and rise up against Fidel Castro and that the U.S. could credibly deny involvement in the invasion, if necessary -- that were fundamentally deluded.

As in Iraq, many of those assumptions were based largely on the accounts of exiles and defectors, but the group dynamics involved in decision-making also played a key role in rallying the administration of the ''best and the brightest'' behind an adventure that proved disastrous, according to Janis.

A great deal more is known about group dynamics within the Bush administration foreign-policy apparatus today -- as a result of leaks, memoirs, and books, such as Bob Woodward's 'Plan of Attack' and Jim Mann's 'Rise of the Vulcans' -- than was known at the time about the Kennedy administration.

And what is known suggests the existence of two major groups -- an ''in-group'' of hawks whose captain is Vice President Dick Cheney and which has had a decisive influence on Bush himself, and an ''out-group'' of ''realists'' headed by Secretary of State Colin Powell and his deputy, Richard Armitage.

While the out-group, which ironically boasts men, including Powell, Armitage, ret. Gens. Anthony Zinni and Brent Scowcroft, with real war experience, the in-group is dominated by individuals, particularly Cheney and virtually the entire civilian leadership of the Pentagon, who have none at all.

Hence the moniker ''chickenhawks'', defined as individuals who favor military solutions to political problems but who themselves avoided military service during wartime. Cheney, who received five different deferments from the military draft during the Vietnam War, famously told an interviewer once that he �had other priorities'' in the 1960s than military service.

What also makes the in-group so remarkable is its very small size, the long history it has shared together, and its close personal relationships.

Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld and Cheney, for example, worked together under Richard Nixon and have been the very best of friends ever since. Their neo-conservative aides and advisers, such as Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, former Defense Policy Board (DPB) chairman Richard Perle, and DPB member Kenneth Adelman, likewise have been close for more than three decades and have personally mentored other top aides and advisers, such as Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, Defense Undersecretaries for Policy and Intelligence, Douglas Feith and Stephen Cambone, respectively, and Weekly Standard editor William Kristol, to name just a few.

The sense of kinship that unites the group is illustrated in part by a dinner hosted by Cheney shortly after U.S. troops took Baghdad 13 months ago. The guests included Wolfowitz, Libby, and Adelman; the atmosphere, warm and celebratory as they recounted their defeat of the ''realists. ''Someone mentioned Powell, and there were chuckles around the table'', Woodward noted. And then ''They turned to Rumsfeld, the missing brother'', and told affectionate stories about their past associations with the crusty Pentagon chief.

When Adelman said he had been surprised U.S. troops had not yet found weapons of mass destruction (WMD), he was assured by Wolfowitz, ''We'll find them'', and by Cheney, ''It's only been four days really. We'll find them''.

Students of Groupthink list a number of symptoms of the phenomenon that can lead the group into disaster, among them:

believing in the group's inherent morality;
sharing stereotypes, particularly of the enemy;
examining few alternative or contingency plans for any action;
being highly selective in gathering information;
avoiding expert opinion;
protecting the group from negative views or information that would contradict their basic assumptions;
and - having an illusion of invulnerability.
From what is now known about planning for Iraq, each of these factors obviously played a role, and they continue to inform U.S. policy not only against perceived enemies, but even against out-groups in the administration or in Congress. And, because the in-group was so small, many of these characteristics were unusually pronounced.

The notion that the chickenhawks were morally superior, not just to Saddam Hussein or the ''terrorists'' or ''Ba'athist dead-enders'' whom they've been fighting since the war ended, extended even to the ''realists'', who were denounced in internal battles as ''appeasers'' or worse. As Cheney was recently quoted as declaring with regard to State Department proposals to engage North Korea, ''We don't negotiate with evil; we defeat it''.

Middle East experts at the State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) were likewise scorned and excluded from both planning and the immediate aftermath of the invasion, while the creation in Feith's office of ad hoc intelligence analysis groups that ''stovepiped'' evidence of Iraqi WMD and ties to Al Qaeda was a classic illustration of selective intelligence gathering that would confirm pre-existing stereotypes.

Similarly, the total failure to prepare contingency plans to deal with looting, or even with the emergence of an insurgency against the occupation, displayed a confidence that turned out to be completely unwarranted. Likewise, former Army chief of staff Gen. Eric Shinseki's prediction that more than 200,000 troops would be needed to occupy Iraq in order to ensure security had not only to be rejected in order to protect the group from negative views; it had to be publicly ridiculed by Wolfowitz as ''wildly off the mark''.

In his latest expose on the prisoner-abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib, New Yorker correspondent Seymour Hersh noted that Rumsfeld's penchant for ''secrecy and wishful thinking'' -- characteristics that also apply to Groupthink -- resulted in the Pentagon's failure to do anything about it or about the many other problems they have encountered.

And whenever Powell or Armitage tried to bring to the attention of the highest levels in the administration the growing concern about prisoner abuse, according to a source recently cited in the ''Nelson Report'', an insider Washington newsletter, they were forced to endure from the chickenhawks what an eyewitness source characterized as ''around-the-table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if THEY ever got their hands on prisoners...''

� Copyright 2004 IPS - Inter Press Service”

“(the rise of fascism)”

“That last paragraph sounds just like a thread I saw yesterday on the dreaded magazine site, <G>”

“The neo-cons are all busy planning the moral relativism required to respond to the latest turns in the war. Please do not disturb them. They are very busy.”

“Sorry.... Too Late! LOL

I went back over there and posted the entire article in its own thread, <GRIN>”

“groan”

“Link



“Our study shows that psychotic patients prefer an authoritative leader,” Lohse says. “If your world is very mixed up, there’s something very comforting about someone telling you, ‘This is how it’s going to be.’”

- snip -

“Bush supporters had significantly less knowledge about current issues, government and politics than those who supported Kerry,” the study says.

This is just another example of the liberal bias inherent in the scientific method.”

“WOW...drawing a conclusion off of 69 subjects....and people say PSSSSYCHOLOGY is a real science...its Snake Oil Sales for the 21st century.”

“Its fun stuff (for some of us at least) but it is some guy's masters thesis, hardly a rock hard piece of psychological science.”

“I just really like this thread :)”

“liberal bias inherent in the scientific method

you have GOT to be trolling...

give us one example...”

“Sounds like a bunch of horse crap to me. Personally I was a diehard Republican Conservative until about 10 years ago. I was even a young Republican in College and worked on several campaigns. I was biased and only saw the Republicans as good and the Democrats as bad. Maturity and life education turned me away from such bias. I will always consider myself to be a conservative. The core conservative issues to me are running a balanced budget, protecting civil rights and providing a strong national defense. The Republicans of late have focused on Guns, God and Gays to win their elections. If the Republicans want me back they need to return to real conservatism. I want to see balanced budgets, a strong national defense (ie. secure borders and ports) and above all respect for the American peoples right (ie. the end of the Patriot Act).”

“... and get down to who really did attack us on 9/11???”

“Very well put, Bateaux.


I also share that path, those views, concerns and solutions.”

“I agree Bateaux. I want the party as it was designed by Reagan and Gingrich....Wealthy Free Citizens...Poor Federal Government.

The government needs to get out of things like EDUCATION, NON Federal building programs (i.e. the bridge to nowhere).

We need to get back to remembering the greatest thing we have in this nation is OUR PEOPLE. I loved the advertisement "And because there are more people than problems the problems will get solved."”

“I can't disagree too much with that... One question, then - Why support Bush?”

“I've said all along Bush is not a right-winger conservative, but the libbies on here are like "What? ... B.S!"

He's a moderate. Always has been.

Like I said long ago, conservatives that aren't happy with him don't want somebody who is more liberal, contrary to what the Dems think - they want somebody more conservative.

At least he's better than the alternatives we've been offered.”

“Whatever libbies you're talking with should change their tune to: We'd like someone more conservative, also.

Bush has been less a conservative and more a train-wreck.”

““Very well put, Bateaux.


I also share that path, those views, concerns and solutions.”


WTF? Oh I see, Bateaux starts a post out by saying, "Sounds like a bucha horse crap to me..." and it deescalates from there and you say "Bravo! Correct on all points!".

But when someone says something you don't like they get the old, "Yes, I see and I would almost give it a second though were it rooted in some type of fact and not in mere emotion and rhetoric from the peasantry. [sniff]".

Haha!
last edited: 11/30/06 4:23:05 PM”

“It’s funny how conservatives try to justify their positions. They want Social Security to remain unchanged as a government program. They fight welfare reform. They want government to remain the fastest growing segment of our economy. They want their political party to remain in power forever.


How can conservatives be so unchanging in their mindset?


A conservative is someone who likes things the way they are isn't he? Or are we dealing with made up word definitions again?

It's so hard to keep up with the media definition because they keep changing the words "liberal" and "conservative" to mean different things when talking about different countries and cultures.”

“There is no understanding conservatives.....

they are from their own little planet...”

“It's the media's fault again.”

“the "conservative" is no longer a known beast. The label has changed radically in the past few years. George Bush is hardly a conservative. He never was, never will be. In fact, imo, we were sold a bill of goods in that man. Packaged nicely to look appealing but distinctly mislabeled. I am appalled by his actions, attitudes and platitudes.

I am a AuH2O conservative if anybody remembers those. Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing is up for grabs. But precious few of us exist anymore. Not that many of us were around in the first place.”