Wildfire

“Last night, I caught the documentary on the Arrowhead Hotshots during the 2000 fire season on Public TV.

They went to great length to lay out the policies on fire management in the last century and the impact those decisions have today.

I was intrigued over how the Forest Service policy has evolved over the years as they learn more about how the decisions of the past affected the ecology over the years.

Also, I didn't realize how long the Forest Service has been training fire crews. I found the entire program to be educational and really sparked an interest in staying in touch with FS policies.”

“Thanks, I'll have that crappy song stuck in my head all day today....lol...”

“Sounds like a good show. That was on PBS in you neck of the woods? Was it called Arrowhead Hotshots?”

“I saw that program, too last night chili- excellent! When I lived in Missoula, I knew a lot of guys who were training at the jump center there. I worked for a time with the forest Service and one of the engineers was with the Fire lab at the UM campus and I got to listen to a few things on drives with him out to various projects. Pretty interesting stuff.

There's a real awesome/eerie/chilling/etc. hike you can do up Mann Gulch where the smokejumpers were killed in 1949. You can see the monuments where each man fell.”

“7:00 Nova "Fire Wars"
Chronicles the men and women of the Arrowhead Hotshots during the summer of 2000, as they worked on the biggest fire of the season. (Encore) R 12:00

Wounded Knee, this is the program.

Bitpusher, I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it.......

now I have it stuck in my head.”

“Paybacks are hell, chili....lol...”

“Thanks chili!”

“Aero, that was a chilling sight. It was interesting to learn that there was no explaination as to how the crew leader survived until they could use computer models to re-create the scenario. The back fire he started created a wind pocket that allowed the others to climb to safety. If they had all followed his directions and could have moved faster, they might all have survived.”

“Damn you both to he11.
Share the pain......

WILDFIRE
Michael Murphy

She comes down yellow mountain on a dark flat land she rides
On a pony she named Wildfire
With a whirlwind by her side
On a cold and drafty night

Oh they say she died one winter
When there came a chilling frost
And the pony she named Wildfire
Busted down his stall
In a blizzard he was lost
She ran calling Wildfire (3 times)

By the dark of the moon I planted
But there came an early snow
There's been a hoot owl howling outside my window now
For six nights in a row
She's coming for me I know
And on Wildfire we're both gonna go
We'll be riding Wildfire (3 times)

On Wildfire we're going to ride her
Gonna leave it all behind
Yes she's always shining right out of my mind
Riding Wildfire”

“StoveStomper, you need to be shot.”

“Yeah, that was interesting. The draft created by the uphill-encroaching fire collided with the down draft from the backfire pushed a wind current to side and allowed them to escape. Part of the crew thought the leader (Dodge?) was crazy for lighting the grass on fire as they were fleeing!

There's a really good book called "Young Men and Fire" by Norman MacClean (A River Runs Through it) that recounts Mann Gulch. I think that maybe the author they had on the program last night, John N. MacClean might be his son???”

“She ran calling Wilddddddddddddfire..er
She ran calling Wilddddddddddddfire..er
She ran calling WildiiiIIIIIiiiidddddddddddfire..er”

“My goodness, but that is a crappy song!

I watched that program too.”

“i just read a story about smokejumpers, and i don't understand how they fight the fire after they jump. do they have water with them when they jump or something? i would assume not, but i don't understand where they get the material to fight the fire with.

it was a pretty good story, though...the first time i'd ever read something about how it might be good to let the forest burn sometimes.”

“John MacLean is indeed Norman Maclean's son. Following his father's lead, John recently wrote a book about the Storm King fire that killed a bunch of Prineville Hotshots and a smokejumper in '94. This is also an excellent song about the Mann Gulch fire by James Keelaghan called "Cold Missour Waters". (Also recorded by Cry Cry Cry and MUCH better than Wildfire!)”

“lyra, they fight the fire not by trying to put it out, but by trying to keep it from spreading. They do this by setting backfires, making firebreaks, etc.”

“The older MacCLean's book is very enlightening. His style is a bit different, but it does tell the story quite well.

The is a book published in the early 70's about forest management practices. It pairs pictures taken on one of Custer's expeditions thru the Black Hills of SD with pictures taken 100 years later. Quite revealing, the forests were no where near as thick.”

“ahhhh! well, that makes more sense. i read that whole story without ever being told what they do once they get on the ground...very frustrating!”

“They fight fire by removing fuel any way they can.

I read a story in the paper about an Israeli who lost a kid to a bomber.
They described him as a former smoke-jumper from Siberia.
There is a lotta forest in Siberia.
I suppose they follow the same fire suppression strategy.”

“The western forests are, as they said in the program, clogged and overgrown after a century of fire supression. Geologists and soils scientists have looked at the soil record in places like Yellowstone and it shows that there have been huge fires there 100-500 years where it was totally burned down and then re-grown. Fire supression is a fairly recent, un-natural management of the forests since people want to live in or near them.

Politicians love to argue over how best to amage forests, whether by prescribed burns or logging. But, when it's 100 degrees and 5% humidity it's going to burn no matter what. Mother Nature's always right!”

“I posted a thread about fires a week or so ago.

And... I saw Michael Martin Murphey at a local event and he sang "Wildfire." Hey, I always liked "Wildfire!!" hehehe...”

“Hey, I always liked "Wildfire!!" hehehe..."
lizs
10:23:44 AM
08/06/03

More proof that lizs is evil! ;)”

“The program pointed out the '98 (?) Yellowstone fire. After the politicians over reacted, the Superintendent gave a classic response..."Calm down people, this is a natural event".

The recovery of the burned out area was pretty remarkable. One of the quotes that struck me was "It is not a choice between prescribed fire and no fire; it is a choice between prescribed fire and wildfire".

That seemed to sum it up for me. I certainly don't have the answers, but it appears a policy, evenly and consistently applied, would take years to evaluate as to effectiveness.

Obviously the "complete suppression" policy didn't work. I think a controlled burn policy would take some time to evaluate, but we would should hold the course until we can determine if it works.”

“I think aero's hit the nail on the head, and pointed out something that a lot of people don't seem to realize. Wildfires are a natural occurance, like tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, and floods, although unlike the rest, they can be started by man. It's a political hot topic because people are losing their property in these fires. But you don't see similar political handwringing when people lose property to other natural disasters, mostly because people who build in the areas where these disasters occur assume the risk of living there.

I think people who build their houses or have other property in forests should be aware of the risk of wildfire as a natural disaster. But because of a century of government-run fire suppression, people assume that the government is responsible, when in actuality, like aero said, if the forest is going to burn, not a lot can be done about it.”

“That was one of the points they made in the PBS program, bit; that people who live at the urban/forest interface have never experienced fires in their lifetimes (because of total supression) and when it does happen they want the government to take care of it.

People are finally realizing that and are clearing their land to provide a defensible space.

We have a cabin in the Beartooth mountains that is in an area that will probably burn some day under the right conditions. The Yellowstone fires of 1988 nearly burned the town of Cooke City nearby. The only thing that saved it was the weather; a late September snow...

BTW, Yellowstone looks really good now where the '88 fires occured. The new trees are about 10-15 feet tall now and starting the cycle over. There are wide open parks where there is a lot of forage for the wildlife.”

“Do you have to get special insurance for that cabin aero? Or does the regular insurance just cost more?”

“hehehe... yup, evil. MMM said that his record company didn't want to put the song on his album, certainly not making it into a single.

At his concert he said the popular group at the time was the Bee Gees. HE IMITATED THEM. "aye, aye, aye, aye, staying alive, staying alive"

There, now you have your song for the afternoon! ;-p~~”

“"And... I saw Michael Martin Murphey at a local event and he sang "Wildfire." Hey, I always liked "Wildfire!!" hehehe..."

What's with girls and horses?”

“:P”

“We have fire insurance and it covers wildfires. We do need to clear a bigger area around it. But, when conditions are right and it's time for it to burn, it's going to burn!”

“Why, I resemble that remark! I had a horse as a girl... well a pony and then a horse. Smoky and Candy, respectively. :-) I belonged to a saddle club and went on trail rides and, yes, probably cursed people on foot in my path. (You know how it is... junior high to high school girls just discovering the "f" word. They curse like sailors! LOL!)”

“Yeah, come to think of it, I can remember the high school girls discovering that.”

“Parts of that program were really familiar... like they recycled parts of a previous show. I've noticed that phenomenon with Astronomy programs on The Learning Channel and Discovery, too.”

“I think that wildfire is very amazing. I've talked about it before, but our family home burned down in a forest fire when I was about 6. They thought the highway, which was miles from our house, would act as a firebreak. It didn't. As Aero said when the conditions exist . . . it was a very hot summer, very dry . . . everything was just plain old fuel. The fire jumped the highway and was on the ridge above our home w/ in no time. As we evacuated you could hear it, just like a train. It makes its own wind and the smoke blacked out the sun to a little red dot. It is also very strange. Our log cabin burned to the ground. The outhouse 10 yds away, wasn't touched. A pine growing right up the side of my grandparent's house totally torched, the paint on the house . . . didn't even bubble up. Very interesting.”