Gay Episcopal Bishop

“thought this was interesting. i have mixed emotions about it and fear a deep division within the church.this is an e-mail fro our preist, who was there. he is a srtong advocate for gay issues.


I've just returned from the Convention Center where the House of Bishops confirmed Gene Robinson's election. I didn't write the numbers down, but I believe it was 62 yes, 45 no. Since the chamber was full, I joined about a thousand people in the worship hall where the proceedings were being simulcast. The announcement was greeted silently by the Bishops; a scattering of applause in the large hall where I was. A group of dissenting bishops led by an old friend of mine Bob Duncan of Pittsburgh walked to the front of the House of Bishops and read their statement of dissent. They said that this body had departed from the faith of the church and appealed to the Archbishop of Canterbury and other Primates of the Anglican Communion to intervene in the Episcopal Church. After their statement, we all stood and sang "Ubi caritas" followed by a prayer from the chaplain of the House of Bishops. People left rather quietly from the Convention Center.

I saw no outbursts of congratulations or any forms of celebration. There is great concern for our brothers and sisters who are deeply hurt.

As I walked out with some of the other Arkansas deputies I said "I feel glad... but not happy." That seems to describe the mood of a lot of us here. I believe our church has done the right thing, but I am sad for my friends and my brothers and sisters who are profoundly hurt.

Lowell”

“From the interviews with Anglicans outside of the USA, the consensus seems to be that the Episcopal Church made a big mistake.”

“A friend of mine commented...."We are all sinners, if we look for one without sin to fill these positions, they will all go empty. The final judgment is not for us, we are to pick who we think is the best for the job."”

“i agree steve but many are saying that he wasn't the best man at all but picked because he is gay. i have no way of knowing if this is true or not. i tend to think the same way as you. i kindof think he's a little vain or selfish to put the church through this.

our preist is EXTREMELY liberal. he is at all the city hall meetings and in the forefront of almost all local controversies. he's a great guy and i truely like him as a man and as a priest.”

“Well, churches and denominations are a lot like supermarkets ...ya picks yer groceries an' ya pays fer 'em. If'n ya don' like the product, ya buys sumpin' else. An' if'n the store don' fancy ya style, well ya goes sumplace else.

Hmmm... somehow I think that would sound more profound if it was written in Latin ;-)”

“......I was married by a gay Episcopal Minister....”

“gives new meaning to the scripture...."you shall know them by their fruits..."”

“strat...don't believe you said that last line!!”

“So no one else is shocked that stratdewd is Episcopal??! I figured Bible-Belt Baptist for sure. LOL!

Strat, remember when the Lutherans (ELCA) wanted to share pastors and communion? That raised a ruckus that almost split the ELCA. A lot of the protests came from the former ALC, which later joined some other Lutheran group to make the ALC. The old Norwegian congregation ALC boys did not take much stock in the "laying of hands" stuff. (I say "stuff" because it's been a few years and I don't remember all the controversial points at this time.)

Anyhoo... church splits happen. Been happening ever since the Bible.”

“Awwww.... Lizs, I'm sure you have made Strat happy. He has mentioned a number of times that the TT liberals probably stereotype him as a fundamentalist cracker - while he is actually a member of a liberal Episcopal congregation.

Anyhow - it is a tough situation all around. It's difficult when different people hold diametrically opposite position as a matter of principle and faith... a lot of decent people seem to be going through a lot of pain.”

“The irony is that strat is an Episcopalian and I attend a fundamentalist church. Not that I believe that men lived alongside dinosaurs but because the music is good and the sermons are a lot more interesting than the dreadfully boring church we used to belong to. Hearing the pastor preach what I consider to be bigotry has caused me to yearn for something different.

I figure the Episcopal church might lose some members over this but will likely gain some who are drawn to their progressiveness on many social issues like the ordination of woman clergy some years ago and now the ‘gay issue’. Do Episcopal churches have bands or organists? Does the service put you to sleep or educate and uplift you?”

“I never figured strat for a Baptist, he drinks beer on float trips in front of people.”

“I was raised in a strict southern baptist church and even when I attended another one I went to ones where you fit in the picture or you were with the misfit group. As I got older and saw the judgement people passed, lacking any love of God that they preached about or compassion, I think of most churches as a social club now. There are some that are truely trying to teach love and help people seek out a better meaning for their life and relationship with God, but most only if you fit in with what they think is right. Everyone is formed by the way they were raised and the circumstances that they have been through in life ~ how can another person tell them they are wrong and they are damned because of things life (or God for that matter) throw at them. I am more of a Unitarian Universalist if I had to put myself with a group because I have found them more open and love based than most religion/beliefs.”

“They must be advanced primates at that.

Wow!

This is a very thoughtful thread and quite civil.

vIoLiN, do you attend a Rock n' Roll church?”

“The final judgment is not for us, we are to pick who we think is the best for the job.
mtnsteve
08:37:47 PM
08/06/03


They'd better ask his special friend if he's the best man for the 'job'.”

“I've been told that I am a "Lapsed Lutheran." Not that there's anything wrong with that. I finally realized that I had serious issues with the church long before liberalization took place, basic theology stuff.

I think a lot of people have serious issues with theology. Some leave the church; some stay and try to work with it as best they can.

Absent the gay bishop issue, the Episcopalians are undergoing a schism between conservative orthodoxes and liberal revisionists. It's been playing out over a long period of time, and individual congregations have been splintering off. More is going on than the gay bishop. It's over theology. I think the schism will continue to widen until the conservatives split with the liberals. It's been that way with Christian religions ever since Martin Luther tacked his theses on the door.”

“I don't know. I have no problem with people choosing that lifestyle but I think that church leaders need to set an example that is outlined in their scriptures. The Bishop in question actually said that G-d was changing the rules and requirments in order to reach out to more people. I nearly peed my pants!

I think the idea of people with deviant behavior counter to an institution's ideology trying to take over and telling the ones that DO try to live by the church's moral code that if they don't like it they can leave is just assinine.

The divition and weakness of the church in the futer will show the outcome of their failure.”

“Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

“Actually Nigal, I heard an interview with Robinson after yesterday's vote where he said he didn't want anyone to leave the church, that they had handled divisive issues in the past and that if anyone left, it was because they wanted to, not because he forced them.”

“"Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged."


Chili, while I do not hold the NT as scripture I do know some of the passages that are directed at church leaders and how they are to conduct themselves and they are to be held to task for their behavior. The concept of not judging others is a two fold theology. I feel that if a person is not a believer they are not held to the same standard as believers and are not subject to judgment by believers. If someone IS a believer they have a certain level of accountability to their fellow believers. So much the more for the leaders of those believers. I don’t feel gays should be excluded from any church but the leadership does have a responsibility to it’s flock. This is not judgement.”

“bible belt babtist? geesh lizzy....why would you assume that? at least you think i'm a dufus....HEY, WAIT A MINUTE!!



I nearly peed my pants!
Nigal
08:17:19 AM
08/07/03
thank God you're wearing them today!

violin, the servises are generally pretty subdued. the have a chior and organist. they burn insence and are usually stunningly beautiful. sometimes a horn of some type will sit in. our priest, lowell, always has thoughtful things to say, and challenges me, as a conservative, to look at the other side of things. to me , my relationship with God is personal. meaning that when i go to church, it's to talk to , and listen to God. i do alot of silent praying and listening...if that makes sense.



"I never figured strat for a Baptist, he drinks beer on float trips in front of people."
dayhiker

lol, they don't call us whikey-palians for nothing...”

“Nigal, if the majority of the flock said that it was ok, does that change the position the leaders should take?

If so, isn't that like the "tail wagging the dog"?”

“That depends Chili. Who is doing the voting for Bishops? The lay people or the leaders of the lay people? Was it a churchwide vote for perishiners (I honestly don't know)? If the majority of perishiners do agree and change the church doctrine that is fine.”

“i don't believe that's the case. there is a form of government in "the church". similar to the catholic faith. it's much too complex for me to comphrehend, let alone explain. the us government is simpler, lol. anyways, a group of leaders vote on this stuff. read that e-mail from father grisham at the top.”

“I guess that is what I was pointing out, nigal. If the sway of public opinion [within the membership of the church] can alter the "moral" implications of the fact that he is gay, then it seems to me it becomes a matter related to the opinion of man and not a matter related to the opinion of God.

If the theologins cannot solve this controversy, who can judge this man?”

“Strat, Strat... it's all that gol-durn rightwing yapping ya do. Course, I did forget about the Baptists supposedly not drinking.

I'm with Geo, as I call myself, the "nonpracticing Lutheran." That stuff I referenced above had to do with the Lutherans and Episcopalians (sp?)sharing pastors and communion. Probably getting into the Catholic-type Church structure you alluded to.

Episcopal theology believes to ordain a minister (or maybe it's just a bishop??), there must be a laying of hands. This supposedly goes back to the time of Christ. Many Lutherans did not want to join with the Episcopals because they thought the laying of hands was a bunch of crap. That in the Lutheran Church there is not that type of hierarchy, that one person is so much "above" another that he would lay his hands on you.

So in that way, it seems to me the Episcopal Church is way old-fashioned, bound to tradition (you're telling me that at some point someone didn't miss laying his hand, that it has really continued since the time of Christ?)

Now return to your gay issues..... lol.”

“I went to a Baptist Kindergarten, and abstained from all alcoholic beverages while enrolled there.”

“Everybody likes to invoke the "Judge not" passage but frankly it always sounds like an attempt to get out of living up to standards.

I am not convinced that this decision is in accordance with Gods word. I find it blatently hubristic.

I would like to have explained to me what passages of the bible the supporters of this decision believe justifies this confirmation.”

“That strict tradition stayed with me. Despite being enrolled in a Anglican School in second grade, I continued to abstain from alcohol.”

“Standards evolve?

Life is change
How it differs from the rocks
I've seen their ways to often for my liking
New worlds to gain
My life is to survive
And be alive”

“God evolves?

LOL, now THAT would be a hot topic for discussion.”

“HPM, I look at the passage somewhat differently. Instead of looking at it to justify my actions, I see it as a message to hold myself to a higher standard.

Far too often, I hear people say "gosh, at least I am not like that person. I don't [fill in blank]". Far too often people judge others to benchmark their relavent position.

BTW, nigal, I posted that passage after your post by "luck of the draw". I was not directing it toward anyone. Just posting MHO.”

“I'm not disagreeing with that at all.”

“all people should be treated with dignity, equality and respect. if the bible states otherwise, its sanctity is compromised. the bible is open to various interpretations; unfortunately, many use it as a tool of bigotry.

this is a descision for the episcopalian church to make; they made their decision, let's move on.

i pity those who are homophobic, who feel gay people should be treated differently. i'd hate to have that bigotry, intolerance, and disrespect in my heart.”

“Luckily, I don't have anything of the sort in my heart.

I am Episcopalian, are you? No? Then move on. Yes? Then let us discuss the matter without you insulting my religious beliefs and labeling them as some sort of mental illness.

Like I said, I'd like to have it explained to me by my Episcopal priest. I put a bit more faith in his interpretation than that of folks on a message board.”

“HPM – I think the easier question is what passages in the Bible condemn homosexuality. I only know of Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 but I’ve heard during this debate that there are either 5 or 7 references altogether. Do those refer to sexual immorality or homosexuality specifically and what are they?

My own study has led me to believe that since we ignore the food requirements, prohibitions against woman wearing men’s clothing (pants), mixing fabrics, touching menstruating women and many other old testament laws, the above cited passages are not binding. Does Jesus mention homosexuality?”

“Well, Violin that's exactly the issue I see.

Christ did away with many of the old laws. I don't think he mentioned homosexuality at all. So does that mean that the laws regarding homosexuality still stand? It was explained to me that they do still stand, but since then I have changed denominations over other non-related issues of faith.”

“chess anyone? (not a pc notation, but oddly amusing to me)

p-KB8=QB?”

“P-QB8=KB, ch!”

“HPM made a good point. I am not gay, I am not Espicopalian and I am not a Bishop.

I am going back to the Lime Green Jellow Pool.”

“If Jesus knew how things would progress... Would he have mentioned it?

I wonder the same thing about the Framers and the Second Amendment. How might they revise it (or not)?


One Last Question.... Do you think Strat included that line about "the fruits" in his reply to the priest's email?


I don't think so....

LOL”

“HPM-

first, chill out, my comment was not directed to you. stop being so ridiculously, and insultingly, defensive.

was your name at the beginning of the post? how did i demean episcopalians? did i accuse you of bigotry? no, i didn't. i was making a very general comment about christianity and the bible, and how some (not you) interpret them.

i'm happy to see the episcopalian church at least having the sensibility to tackle this difficult issue, regardless of the ultimate decision.

insulting YOUR religious beliefs? please, reread my post. your so correct, i'm not an episcoplian, i'm catholic, and we all know how progressive the catholic church is with these issues; maybe i should become an episcopalian.

your comments were completely unwarranted.”

“oh and for the record:

being an episcopalian is NOT a mental illness. but being a catholic, that might be a different story!!”

“Before this gets out of hand, I'd just like to post a few words from one of this country's spiritual heavyweights on the topic of religious tolerance:







"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them"
- Pat Robertson”

“yeah, i think i wrote my post with someone like pat robertson in mind, poor guy.”

“By disagreeing with this decision and knowing the tendencies of this board I expect attack posts. Yours at first read looked to me to be in that vien.

I'm sorry that I ASSumed it was.”

“The spirit of the Anti-christ?

The saddest thing about old Pat is that you NEVER have to take his comments out of context to make him look or sound bad.”

“HPM- i tend not to waste time attacking people, except for strat! sorry if my response was a bit harsh.

hope to see you on the trail sometime.”

“HPM and jmitch...I've hiked with both of you guys, and you both rock! You'll enjoy each other's company on the trail someday.”

“If Jesus knew how things would progress... Would he have mentioned it?
Tilt
11:05:46 AM
08/07/03


IF??? Jesus knew everything. He was God, for gods sakes.”