Brigham Young's views

“Cognitive Dissonance”

“"I know the answer to this varies by who you ask, but, to Jews who was Jesus?”

This is not to sound like an attack but Judaism generally considers Jesus to have been a false prophet. On the surface this sounds very bad, I know. In order for there to be a prophet to the Jews there must be a large enough gathering of the nation to be in one place, weather it is in Israel or in captivity (Babylon, ect.). The bulk of the Jewish nation had been scattered to the wind by the time Jesus came along so there could not have been a prophet in Israel at that time. There is also the fact that Jesus’ prophetic record is somewhat inaccurate.

If we read just the red letters of the Nt we find Jesus’ message to be very different from Paul’s message. Jesus, in places, appears to not be calling the Jews to a new religion but rather calling them back to G-d and Judaism. It seams that Paul’s expansion of the religion is where the real trouble starts concerning the relationship between the followers of Jesus and Judaism.”

“I still don’t like how harsh that post sounded. It’s too hard for one person to nail down an entire religions views. Here are a link to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp. You can get a more analytical and non biased view there.”

“I didn't take that bad and you make a good point.

LDS question. If Jesus was the Messiah, then why was a later Prophet needed?”

“I guess I need to answer some more questions and comment on some statements that were made.

I think Nigal's comment on choice above is right on. We are just as likely to do good things in life as we are to do bad. It simply boils down to the choices we make. It is totally up to us.

Dayhiker- First your question about prophet. I'm going to reference back to my comment about God being perfect in every way. This includes how He has dealt with His children here. We read through out all of scripture that He has always communicated His will to us through prophets. Why would that need to change? Being perfect means that He is the same now as He was yesterday and will be forever. While scriptures that were written thoudands of years ago can be applied to our situations today, in the tumultuous days that we live in today wouldn't it be that much more comforting to know that He has chosen someone to provide that guidance to see us through chaos that exists? There are those out there that say because we have a living prophet that this some how makes us un-Christian. I don't get it. If you would take the time to study what our leaders have taught us to do you would find that they are deeply rooted in the teachings of Christ. i don't know how well I've explained the prophet issue do feel free to ask more about it.

"Some groups such as Church of Christ seems to feel that their particular denomination is the only ONE going. What stance does LDS take on this issue?"
I was wondering when this one might come up. This is one belief of my faith that can cause the most controversy. First let me say that every church in the world teaches very positive thigs to its followers. From Christianity to Islam to Buddhism, there are many wonderful thigs to be learned from each. Sometimes it's a shame that we focus so much on the negative. Having said all that with so many religions, it does get very confusing on which is the path to choose. It seems to reason that the church to follow would be the one set up the way Jesus taught. When Jesus walked the earth he set up He showed the way His church should be set up. There was a prophet and 12 apostles. The church taught baptism by immersion. The temple should play a significant role in lives of its members. Jesus taught that the only way to return to the presence of Him and God would be to join His church and receive the blessings of that church. I've really stumbled through this so please try to understand that I am in no way taking a shot at any other faith. I firmly believe what I've shared and I've really enjoyed sharing it.

I'm fairly certain there will be many thoughts/questions about all this. It will be a healthy discussion.”

“On the Prophet issue. It seems like you're saying that you have the Messiah, but you also have folks who come from time to time like a John the Baptist type of figure. Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. These are merely encouragers along the way. John had his own followers. Is this analogous to what you are saying? If so, does this accurately describe LDS view on Joseph Smith?

My question about "who's going" really related to your view on other Christian groups. I'm assuming that your take would be all Christian groups as opposed to just LDS. Is that correct?”

“Nigal, Isaiah Chapter 53. That's a Messianic Prophecy. It tells of The Messiah's suffering for our sins. Sorry I don't have a Bible with me. The Hebrew Sciptures tells us "there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not". So it sure appears like we are indeed "shapen in iniquity" and tainted with sin from what I read in the Tanach. Sounds like we all need a saviour, both Jew and Gentile. I know I do! When I get a Bible in my hands I will be better equipped to provide references and better info.”

“"Nigal, Isaiah Chapter 53. That's a Messianic Prophecy. It tells of The Messiah's suffering for our sins.”

Isaiah 53 falls into that category I spoke of as “WHAT exactly IS a messianic prophecy?”. Chapter 53 is a part of what is called The Four Servant’s Songs which span from chapters 41-53. Who exactly IS the servant spoken of in these chapters? The servant of G-d is named by name no less than six times within the very texual span you speak of:

Isaiah 41:8-9
Isaiah 44:1-2
Isaiah 44:21
Isaiah 45:4
Isaiah 48:20
Isaiah 49:3

The servant is not suffering FOR the sins of the world but BECAUSE of the sins the world committed against him.


“The Hebrew Sciptures tells us "there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not". So it sure appears like we are indeed "shapen in iniquity" and tainted with sin from what I read in the Tanach.”

Here is a good link to a page that discusses the concepts of original sin. It is even written by a christian.


http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm”

“I'm sure you meant Christian? Capitol C.”

“I mean no offence by it but when I write about these matters it is usually in a Jewish forum. Jews are forbidden from speaking or writting another god's name. The word christian is included in that so I don't even usually write it out but use xtian when writting to Jews. The word christian with a capital letter would make referrence to the person "christ". I simply use a small "c" so as to not offend anyone with xtian.”

“Nigal, a few questions:

1. False Prophet. This could be taken a few ways. He was trying to be a prophet and was just wrong. He was trying to be a prophet and had bad intentions. He truly was a prophet, but not for the good guys.

2. xtian, G-d....Do you also use this syntax for Muslims? They are from the same "seed" as the Jews. They all sprang from Abraham. I might not necessarily agree with other schools of thought, but I do think it's a show of respect to at least acknowledge other faiths. I refer to Muslims, Catholics, LDS, Hindu, Buddhist, and yes, even Southern Baptist, even if they all are wrong. I'm just kidding with the last comment.

3. Vigin birth. This precludes him from meeting the qualifications of Messiah? If so, then what do it qualify Him for?

4. I don't recall John doubting Jesus. At first he didn't know who He was. Also, Jesus wasn't claiming to be the Messiah. Especially at that point in time.

5. Doesn't the forming of the State of Israel after WWII count to calling home the exiles?”

“Oops, I meant "If so, then what DOES it qualify Him for?" My Southern talk was coming out there.”

“Two words:



MAGIC UNDERWEAR”

“Happy Friday to you Dayhiker!

1. False Prophet.-

This is a tough call because even when a prophet HAS been called by G-d to be his mouthpiece on earth this is by no means a guarantee that the Jews would believe or follow him. I believe Isaiah was executed by being cut in half. Which was Jesus? I can’t say but one thing is clear his prophecies he did make were very ambiguous and mostly inaccurate (the time of his returning is one good example) claims and the only one that did happen (the destruction of the Temple) is not cut and dry because the destruction came at about the same time the gospels were written. Weather he was a prophet or not isn’t a real lynch pin to his messiah ship anyhow.

2. xtian, G-d.…“Do you also use this syntax for Muslims?”.

No. Because it is not nor does it contain the name of another god. christian contains the name “Christ” which is considered another god according to Judaism. I know it would look like hairsplitting looking at from the outside in, but most Jewish law errors on the side of caution. In the same vein the names buddhist, buddhism, mithraism, and any other religious name that contains the name of a god are not written nor spoken. Again, it is just a force of habit and I mean no disrespect by it.

3. Vigin birth. “This precludes him from meeting the qualifications of Messiah? If so, then what do it qualify Him for?”

There is another option here, that he wasn’t born of a virgin in the first place. Even if he was born of Joseph’s seed, Joseph’s genealogy excludes his messiah ship based on the fact neither of the genealogies given in the gospels shows his line going through David’s son Solomon. It can only be through Solomon’s line that the Messiah will come.

2 Samuel 7:12-16 - (12) When your days will be completed and you will lie with your forefathers, then I shall raise up your seed after you, that which will issue from your loins, and I shall establish his kingdom. (13) He shall build a Temple for My sake, and I shall make firm the throne of his kingdom forever. (14) I shall be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chastise him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings. (15) But My mercy shall not move away from him as I removed [it] from Saul, whom I removed from before you. (16) And your dynasty and your kingdom shall be confirmed before you forever; your throne will remain firm forever.

Solomon was the builder of the Temple.

4. “I don't recall John doubting Jesus.”

Luke 7:19-20(KJV) – (19) And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? (20) When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

“At first he didn't know who He was.”

Would not Jesus have known who he was? Would not his mother have told him of his miraculous birth? When Mary and Joseph lost him in Jerusalem at the age of 12 and they found him in the Temple Jesus seems to have had a good handle on his identity even at that young age.

“Also, Jesus wasn't claiming to be the Messiah. Especially at that point in time.”

At the time John was doubting Jesus he had been taken into prison. This was after Jesus’ baptism when G-d anointed him. John had been preaching of the one who would come for some time and when Jesus came to him at the river John declared that Jesus was the lamb of G-d they had been waiting for. Simply upon seeing him he declared Jesus.

5. “Doesn't the forming of the State of Israel after WWII count to calling home the exiles?"

No. The prophecies are very clear that all Jews will come home to a unified Israel/Judah from all corners of the world. The creation of a state doesn’t do this.

Isaiah 11:12 - And he [Messiah] shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”

“On the genealogy issue: I was under the impression that the reason Christ was born in Bethlehem (birthplace of David) was Mary had to return there for the census. Doesn’t Isaiah 7:14 prophesise a virgin birth?”

“1-3, 5. Thanks for the answer
4. I wasn't thinking about after the Baptism. That's a good point. I was thinking of the part where John basically says that he was not worthy to baptise Jesus, it should be the other way around.

Happy Friday to you too. Thanks for the information.

All of this discussion is making it obvious that I need to learn and push my own beliefs further. For that I am very grateful.”

“Follow up, I was under the impression that Joseph was a direct descendant of David through Solomon.”

“I'm am gratefull for the opportunty to drink good dark German beers.My beliefs its is that this Personage should have one now”

“"Follow up, I was under the impression that Joseph was a direct descendant of David through Solomon."

Yes the geneology found in Matt. does have his line coming through Solomon's but it also has it coming through Jeconiah. Jeconiah was a wicked king of Judah who was cursed by G-d that none of his seed would take the thrown...

Jeremiah 22:24-30

Verse 30 reads..."[30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)".”

“Dayhiker I do want to make one thing clear to you. With all the information I have given you I want you to know that I do not feel people should not follow christianity. Do I think Jesus is THE savior? No, but if someone does come to a relationship with G-d through him he is considered A savior. Just as if anyone else were to expose someone to G-d and lead them to a relationship is considered a savior. It is far greater to have any relationship with the Creator than NO relationship.”

“Nice way to put it Nigal, but not quite with the reality of the issue. IF Jesus is NOT what "Christians" claim him to be and truly a false prophet, then under the Law of God ALL false prophets were to be put to death. And Israel was not "to be afraid of him". Nice try anyhow. Have a nice Sabbath Day Nigal!”

“""Nice way to put it Nigal, but not quite with the reality of the issue."

Your issues change like the wind. Which one are you on now?

"IF Jesus is NOT what "Christians" claim him to be and truly a false prophet, then under the Law of God ALL false prophets were to be put to death. And Israel was not "to be afraid of him"."

One question Ohio Hiker...Exactly WHO is suppossed to pass judgement and do the executing of a false prophet?

"Nice try anyhow."

Nice try at what?”

“Ohio Hiker…..As Mediaman asked…”Are you Mormon and trying to proselytize?” You never answered his question. If you are...Your doing it for the wrong reason.…That’s one of the many things wrong with the members Mormon Church. Notice I say "members". The LDS religion's principals about life are good. It's the people that screw it all up.

I have been raised in a staunch Mormon family (middle name is Spencer) and have lived in SLC all my life. I have seen it all when it comes to the “Church” (as it is referred to in SLC). The hypocrisy and prejudice amongst members is sickening. I can't tell you how many times in political and social circles, I have seen people screw other people and then go to church every Sunday, and think they are the best LDS person around. Unbelievable!

Believe me Nigal and Ohio Hiker, You should worry more about how you treat your fellow man…. today and tomorrow, NOT that what happened 150 or 2-3 thousand years ago. Both of your good minds would be better served to your fellow man.”

“"You should worry more about how you treat your fellow man…. today and tomorrow, NOT that what happened 150 or 2-3 thousand years ago."

I believe it is very possible to show kindness to my fellow man as well as knowing history. You can have both.

Peace Griz.”

“The question is which is the priority?

Tilt help me out on this one……I wish that an alien will come down and tell the world that we all came from them….then maybe all of this religious based murder will stop.”

“Nigal, the reason I'm asking these questions is that I don't personally know anyone who is Jewish. I think this is an excellent opportunity to just ask about opinions and beliefs. I haven't taken a single thing that you've said as an effort to change me or belittle my beliefs. I think you've been very respectful. I have earnestly tried to ask questions that I'm curious about and that's it. I haven't tried to get you to reveal some "hidden" belief and then pounce or get others to do so. I think the two of us have both been open yet a little afraid we might offend the other. The tone of your messages will definately NOT offend me. Thanks for the openess and sincerity.”

“"The question is which is the priority?”

For a christian it is easy to say that history is the lesser priority. For the non christian it is not so easy. My religion is a small minority in comparison to Christianity. There is a sect of Christianity out there that most Christians don’t even realize is there. And their only purpose is to lead Jews away from Judaism and into Christianity. It’s called the Messianic movement. It was started by the Southern Baptist Coalition because the Baptists believe that the Jews are holding up the show and that Jesus won’t come back until all these Jews get saved. They co-opt the dressings and rituals of Judaism and try to tell Jews that converting is the most Jewish thing they could do.

Here’s a good example. What if there was a religious group that violated most of your Mormon ideals yet claimed to agree on the same things? What if this group’s aim was to see every single last Mormon convert away from Jesus and the church? What if this groups was given $22 million to go out and convert as many Mormons as it could over five years? What if they targeted communities that had 25,000 Mormons or more in them? Would this make you feel targeted? Would you feel like they were trying to wipe out your entire religion? This is exactly what Jews for Jesus is doing as we speak.

That’s why I am so outspoken on keeping Christianity and Judaism separate and have no trouble sharing my views.”

“Thank you for the respectful post Dayhiker. Most times when I have these discussions they are far more offensive because it is usually someone coming onto a Jewish board hellbent on proving Judaism wrong and their religion right.

Thanks again.”

“Most of the anti-LDS stuff on the net is by the same folks who are going to save you Nigal. This from a LDS friend of mine.”

“"Vigin," vegan or..... hmmm... virgin birth?? :-)”

“Thanks for the editing.”

“"Most of the anti-LDS stuff on the net is by the same folks who are going to save you Nigal. This from a LDS friend of mine."

Most definitely dayhiker! That's why I tried to find pro LDS sources for posting doctrine from. Many times a christian's aim is never as good as when aimed at fellow christians. Too few times is the fact that believers believe in G-d enough to bind us together.”

“I want to hear some more about that magic underwear and Joseph Smith talking tho that white salamander.”

“'Vegan birth'?? LOL

Like that classic line from Agrippa in the second act of Antony and Cleopatra, no doubt, referring to the liason btween Cleopatra and Caesar which resulted in the birth of Caesarian....

  Agr.        Royal wench!   

She made great Cæsar lay his sword to bed;   

He plough’d her, and she cropp’d. 

”

“Thus quoth Abner saying, "Verily I say unto ye, he that sayeth unto ye other than that being spake from the very mouth of your wellspring will vouchsafe come hither and abide thrice saying with wise council, ye shall not covet those who would leadeth ye under the spell of Abinadrathness who spake unto the Jebbidites".
(Repeat five times and send out to ten of your friends within the next 30 minutes or reap the harvest of the seeds that you have sown.)”

“yeah but who really gives a crap?


move on people, there's nothing to see here....”

“Hey lizs, didn't PETA try and play the vegan Jesus card a few years back by claiming that because some say he was an Essen that he was a vegan? That's as silly as their present "chicken consentration camp" campaign.”

“I dunno, Nige...... sorry, dayhiker. hehehe...editing is what I do... I saw "vigin" and "vegan" came to mind. I had much the same reaction as Tilt (although I'm not sure what he's trying to say)

And Jos. Smith talking to the white salamander? That was L-S-D... ummm.. right? Not L-D-S?? :-)”

“Yeah, I saw that 'LSD' and had to shake my head and do a quick double-take, LOL


'vegan birth'!

<sheesh>”

“Ohhhhh Tilt, you and me baby... same wacked sense of humor. Ummm... SOMETIMES!! But I'll always say your Barnaby Collins was a classique!!”

“"And Jos. Smith talking to the white salamander? That was L-S-D... ummm.. right? Not L-D-S?? :-)"

I don't know...is it really all that much crazier than Moses speaking to a flame? A bush? Or a burning pillar? Esau had a talking donkey too (and my wife's gotta talking ass[me]). Because G-d has no physical shape or being He seams to choose to speak to His chosen in other ways.”

“I can't believe that I keep forgetting to ask this one. What is the Jewish view on the resurrection. I'm assuming the view is that it didn't happen. If so, what rationale is used to discount the eye witness accounts and interaction with Jesus over the 40 days he was on Earth?”

““I'm assuming the view is that it didn't happen. If so, what rationale is used to discount the eye witness accounts and interaction with Jesus over the 40 days he was on Earth?"

Yikes! Now there is a can or worms! Yes, it is viewed as never happening. There are many reasons but in a nutshell it is because we have four accounts that conflict a great deal, there is no historical evidence of it aside from the gospels, and the only accounts of any Jesuses in the Jewish Talmud were not about Jesus of Nazareth nor were they during the same time period. While there is a dual messiah theology concerning a Moshiach ben Yoseph and a Moshiach ben David, no Moshiach is prophesied to die and be resurrected.”

“I need to qualify something. I might be making it sound like folks who want to "save" others are off their rocker. That's not what I'm saying. The great commandment of Christianity is to go forth and share the good news. That rings as true today as it did 2000 years ago. What I don't agree with is all of the guilt tactics and you're wrong and I'm right garbage that lots of folks preach. As has been discussed on other threads, the personal approach of this is what happened to me is much more effective and meaningful.

Nigal - "While there is a dual messiah theology concerning a Moshiach ben Yoseph and a Moshiach ben David, no Moshiach is prophesied to die and be resurrected"

Could you add to the dual Messiah theology. Is Moshiach the Hebrew or Yiddish word for Messiah?”

“I uploaded "Barnaby" to Webshots, but they deleted him and sent me a nasty enail about copyright infringement!”

“Could you add to the dual Messiah theology. Is Moshiach the Hebrew or Yiddish word for Messiah?"


Yes it is. The general deal is that one would come first and be killed in battle and then the other one would come along and be THE Moshiach that would bring about world peace. We also have to keep in mind that when we say messiah in Judaism that we are simply saying G-d’s anointed. There have been many messiahs.”

“So the Christian concept of Messiah as Son of God and the Judaic concept are different. Messiah and Prophet are much closer to the same?”

“I also agree with you about evangelism tactics. I encourage anyone in the path that G-d has them on irregardless of the chosen religion.”

“I kinda like Moa'dib”