Separation Of Church And State

“I don't disagree with anything any one of them said, stickman.

But in due time, I am firmly convinced I can find that each of them equally promoted Liberty without government intervention.

Justice Moore's beliefs are not wrong in my opinion. Justice Moore can beieve what he wants. But the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court cannot promote any religion over the other.”

“mtnsteve, thanks.

I am copying that, printing it, and putting it on the wall of my office.”

“The biggest problem this world is facing right now is this attitude of..

"My Gods better then yours"


It's already killed an awful lot of people.”

“Our system of jurisprudence like
many countries is based on theocratic law. Which means it evolved from the ten commandments.
Removing that monument is a slap
at the intention of our founding
fathers. For the sake of modernism.
I'm not arguing the point,or pointing a finger,just stating the
obvious.”

“Well, I'm not real interested in religion at this point in my life, I guess that's good or bad depending on who you ask, so I'm not going to argue pro or con on the idea of religion in government. I was just throwing in some food for thought and countering some of what had been said, mainly to stir the pot. I don't usually comment on the religious threads. At least this one has remained civil, primarily due to the posters involved.”

“Removing that monument is a slap
at the intention of our founding
fathers

No, subverting the constitution would be a "slap at the intention of our founding fathers." Clearly, establishment is unconstitutional.”

“Elfskin, sometimes I wonder why I even try.

A "slap" at the founding Fathers?

Why isn't it the Founding Fathers didn't erect a monument like this a long time before Justice Moore dreamed up the idea?

Well, I think the obvious answer is, it would fly in the face of what they were trying to create.”

“To stickman's quotes, it is only fair to add these:

"Religions are all alike -- founded on fables and mythologies."

"Certain teachings in the Bible are as diamonds in a dung-heap".

- Thomas Jefferson”

“You got it chili!

"I heard a good quip on the radio today discribing the new ultra left tactics..."If you can't legislate it try to litigate it."

Yes, that does sound like one of the catchy phrases from right-wing radio.
And it is totally wrong.
What we have here is a guy(Moore) who broke the law.
Those who approve of his law-breaking are crying about the courts doing their job and upholding the law.
Moore should pay for all the expenses incurred in his showboating.”

“And this:

"What has been the fruits of Christianity? ...Superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-James Madison, 4th president of the US”

“you're pretty lucid today, for an insane dude, Violin.”

“moore's intentions were clear, he has an extensive history of doing this as a trial judge. he wants to prostelyze his christian beliefs, and he is using his position as chief justice to do so. look at his own statements, he said it himself, he wants the ten commandments in the courthouse to honor and recognize God and recognize Judeo-Christian morals as the foundation of our laws. it has nothing to do with "i shall not kill" which is already codified in Alabama's criminal code.

a courthouse is not the place to advertise religion, there are several other forums where that can be done. to permit the ten commandments in the courthouse will result in other religions erecting their own symbols and monuments.

courts should focus on effecting a fair judicial process, not showcasing religion.

i completely agree with the removal of the ten commandments.”

“and i didn't even mention the fact that moore broke the law, intentionally violated a court order, and compromised the judiciary. in PA, such violations of judicial ethics would result in removal.

some will blame it on the "liberals" and "democrats", but both the Alabama and US Supreme Courts are dominated by Republicans.”

“"What has been the fruits of Christianity? "

Pat Robertson
Jerry Falwell

To name but two.”

“Well, since I've already jumped head first into this one, I feel I should add some more religious history to this.Try this one:

The Israelites were all waiting anxiously at the foot of the mountain, knowing that Moses had had a tough day negotiating with God. Finally a tired Moses came into sight. "I've got some good news and some bad news, folks," he said. "The good news is that I got Him down to ten. The bad news is that adultery's still in."

Or in order to better understand all the religions we have around, I submit this:

Taoism: #&%!$ happens
Hare krishna: #&%!$ happens Rama Rama Ding Ding
Hinduism: This #&%!$ has happened before
Islanm: That #&%!$ happens is the will of Allah
Zen: What is the sound of #&%!$ happening?
Existentialism: #&%!$ doesn't happen; #&%!$ is
Buddhism: When #&%!$ happens, is it really #&%!$?
Confucianism: Confucius say, "#&%!$ happens"
7th day Adventist: #&%!$ happens on Saturdays
Protestantism: #&%!$ won't happen if I work harder
Protestantism: If #&%!$ happens, it happens to someone else
Catholicism: If #&%!$ happens, you deserved it
Jehovah's Witnesses: Knock, knock, "#&%!$ happens"
Jehovah's Witnesses: No #&%!$ happens until Armageddon
Unitarian: What is this #&%!$?
Mormon: #&%!$ happens again & again & again
Judaism: Oy vey! Why does this #&%!$ always happen to us?
Pentecostalism: Praise the #&%!$!
Atheism: There is no #&%!$!
New Age: #&%!$ happens and it happens to smell good
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this #&%!$

Weird theory #47: Islamic women can do kinky things with their ankles. That's why the Koran says they aren't supposed to reveal them in public

Okay I'm done.”

“They're fruits all right, Tom!”

“"At least this one has remained civil, primarily due to the posters involved."
stickmanwalking”

“Fruit of Islam......Louie Farakhan”

“Yes, fritz, this type of thread is where I usually find the time and energy to make a statement.

It has remained civil, I think there are several well though out opinions, and other than Violin calling me a pinko (now that is the Kettle calling the Pot black), it has been the progressive kind of discussion I enjoy.”

“I'm sure any Buddhists reading this thread would appreciate it if you didn't refer to the Buddha as "the fat guy".”

“See you at the May Day parade, chili!”

“Fritz-

going on a TT trip anytime soon?”

“Yes, tilt, you are correct.

My appolgies to all the Buddhists.”

“Dang, didn't mean to post that without my comment...

This issue was discussed just a few weeks ago with equal civility, not the statue in Alabama, but the general debate.

I don't have time today to join in.

I am tempted to observe, tongue-in-cheek, that there is an unhealthy level of agreement in this thread. :) But really, the "10 commandments" issue that you are discussing is not all that complex. If I were participating in this thread, I might be the most sympathetic to the beliefs of those who want the statue there...but still, I think it should be removed.”

“Wow...all those posts while I was typing... :)

jmitch, I wish I was...I went on Sierrapalooza, now I am going for a weekend to do an adventure race, so I won't be hiking/backpacking until at least October.”

“"Call me a leftist, call me a communist..."
- chili36
10:52:49 AM
08/28/03


But 'pinko' is out of line? Go figure...”

“How about knee-jerk bleeding heart?”

“And I was talking to mtnsteve anyway, egotist.”

“I'm sure any Buddhists reading this thread would appreciate it if you didn't refer to the Buddha as "the fat guy"

We're not that uptight..call him whatever, he is but a teacher, and they are only words”

“Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


- Nowhere did I find the words "seperation of Church and State" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or other ammendments.”

“Duh.”

“I think "Pinko" is a hilarious word. I have no idea why I think that though.”

“Nowhere did I find the words "seperation of Church and State" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or other ammendments.

LOL, good one.”

“Twinkle Toes - I hear that parroted all the time like it's a major revelation. The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. The Constitution couldn't be clearer. Part of what you posted is known as the separation clause.


Jefferson's words: "Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State" (Letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802).”

“There are two sides to this really. On one side do we REALLY think that having the Big 10 on the lawn is going to make this judge any more bent on the christian moralities in his own court room? On the other side: Do you REALLY think that NOT having the Big 10 on the lawn is going to make this judge any LESS bent on the christian moralities in his court room?

They can stay, they can go. Neither changes jack squat in the court room.”

“Justice Moore's Testimony upon being examined by Plaintiff's attorney: (as quoted in the 11th Circuit Opinion [emphasis supplied]

Q: Was your purpose in putting the Ten Commandments monument in the Supreme Court rotunda to acknowledge GOD’s law and GOD’s sovereignty?

A: Yes

Q: Do you agree that the monument, the Ten Commandments monument, reflects the sovereignty of GOD over the affairs of men?

A: Yes

Q: And the monument is also intended to acknowledge GOD’s overruling power over the affairs of men, would that be correct?

A: Yes

Q: When you say “GOD” you mean GOD of the Holy Scripture?

A: Yes


I don't think there could be a better example of a Public Official violating Separation of Church and State.”

“I like pink.....”

“Why isn't it the Founding Fathers didn't erect a monument like this a long time before Justice Moore dreamed up the idea?

Well, I think the obvious answer is, it would fly in the face of what they were trying to create."
chili36
11:41:40 AM
08/28/03

Haven't been to the Supreme Court building lately, eh? Check out the frieze above the East entrance, who's that at the top and what's he holding? Okay, so that wasn't there in the founding father's day -- but it sure beat this BS by a bunch of decades.

As to your second paragraph, you really need to study the writings of the founders a bit more. It's apparent that you're not familiar with their original intent. Start with the Declaration of Independence, and later you can find lots of info in the book "Original Intent" by David Barton. If I remember correctly, Barton gives sufficient info that you can independently look up his references. Amazon.com carries the book, and there are a variety of other books on the same topic so choose whichever most pleases you.

Why does someone elses' expression of religion so bother folks if they're secure in their own beliefs?

The only folks I've ever met who were bothered by open displays of other regligions were in fact so insecure in their beliefs that they felt threatened. Instead of sorting out their own feelings, they try make others hide everything away behind closed doors.

The founding fathers established freedom OF religion. All the modern b*llsh*t is trying to mutate that into freedom FROM religion.

There is a VERY distinct difference.

Any questions herein should be considered rhetorical -- I'm probably not going to waste any more time in this thread.”

“Freedom of religion implies freedom from religion.

The "separation claus" is to protect the people from "tyranny of the majority".

Live with it

America, love it or leave it!”

“Never looked at it that way deeddawg.

The words "seperation of church and state" isn't even in the founding father's documents.”

“But, dammit, I've got the PINK THINGY!!

For a slight twist on the topic (or not, if no one responds... so be it)... what about when religion causes harm? Say the Amish here where I live in SE MN that won a MN State Supreme Court (sent back to that court by the U.S. Supreme Court) to NOT put slow moving vehicle signs on their buggies, so they are more visible?

The signs are bright red and/or orange and reflective. I can personally attest to the difficulty in trying to see an Amish buggy alongside the highway at night (they go on the shoulders, which is paved and known as the "Amish Byway")

All they have is a smidgeon of a lantern. Reflectors at the end of driveways can be much more easily seen. It's just a matter of time before someone gets smooshed, be it Amish and/or the "English."

I'm not sure why, but the Amish DID decide to abide by state health regulations thrown at them last fall (lets say "finally enforced" as opposed to "thrown"). The crack-down occurred after around 10 people from the Twin Cities got sick from food from an Amish home on a tour that visits Amish homes.

Now they are going to abide by state rules. Again, why they decided this one would fly and not go to court is beyond me.

Hmmm... and now that I think about it, I think an Amish guy who is trying to build a house closer to a rock quarry than the county-zoned setback is awaiting a decision on that one.

Always fun to see the hats and beards at the county courthouse across the street.”

“Uninformed or ignorant?”

“deeddawg..did you not read or look at the pdf file of the freize? It's a parade of different ideals and doctrines..hell moses is half covered up like the geeky kid in the back of your high school class photo”

“DUH!

All the constitutional scholars must have overlooked that fact when considering whether the term separation of church and state applies. Gosh!

Why does someone elses' expression of religion so bother folks if they're secure in their own beliefs?

A courthouse is where justice is meted out. Justice should not have anything to do with a person religious beliefs. Why have the statue there? Why not a granite carving of the state constitution instead, if we're talking about the rule of law?”

“deeddawg, just what do you think is being depicted above the Supreme Court?

What do you gather from that depiction?”

“Phaedrus..don't even freaking joke..our 1901 constitution is 200 pages long i think, and still has language in it to the effect of keeping blacks and women from voting”

“Q: And the monument is also intended to acknowledge GOD’s overruling power over the affairs of men, would that be correct?

A: Yes

Q: When you say “GOD” you mean GOD of the Holy Scripture?

A: Yes


The statue was there for no other reason than to intimidate non-christians.”

“Hint: The answer to that question leads to an understanding of Secular v. Non Secular.”

“That'd be a fun document to carve, opie!”