Separation Of Church And State

“This Ten Commandmants thing has gone way too far, like the Supreme Court and lower courts don't have anything better to do.

Frankly, I'd like to think our Representatives have some sort of "religious" values...you know...honesty, trustworthy, courteous, not stealing, not cheating, etc.

FYI - Did you know the Supreme Court building has carved figures on the front of the building and at the apex is Moses sitting on a throne holding the Ten Commandments?”

“The thing is that the tem commandments in Alabama are not violating any constitutional laws.

I heard a good quip on the radio today discribing the new ultra left tactics..."If you can't legislate it try to litigate it." This is the crux of my ire over Alabama being forced to remove the monument by a court. When we allow the courts to change the constitution and laws the balance of power is totally shifted. Courts have far, far too much power.”

“Well, nigal, if you are right, then the Supreme Court should reverse the Court of Appeals.

The High Court doesn't change the Constitution, it merely interprets it.”

“Some people won't be satisfied until everyone thinks exactly as they do, apparently (Good Luck With THAT, LOL).

I think he's a political opportunist (see California gubernatorial recall for others). Having them hung on the wall got him the publicity to be elected to the State Supreme Court, I hear. I also hear that he ran ads billing himself as "The Ten Commandments Judge".

good grief.”

“Just a thought...

Do you think their views about freedom of religion would apply if he wanted to put the Book of Mormon or the Koran on display?

Or does freedom of religion only count if your a Christian?”

“Question....why is it right for them to remove monuments to dead confederate soldiers outside courthouses and city halls? And don't give me this crap "They lost"..that's not even the issue.”

“I agree with Buddur. I would like to see more morality in the courts, not less.”

“**ZAP!!**

lizs is struck by lightning

**BRRRRRRRR!!**

... and hell freezes over, as bacpac finds common ground with buddur”

“"FYI - Did you know the Supreme Court building has carved figures on the front of the building and at the apex is Moses sitting on a throne holding the Ten Commandments?"

Where did you get that idea? The two friezes “the great lawgivers of history” depict 22 historical figures including Moses, Hammurabi, Confucius, Muhammad and Napoleon. Moses is the third from the left of 11 figures on one frieze. He is standing and holding two tablets. Part of one is visible but is written in Hebrew.

You can view them here: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf

This is the type of public religious display clearly permitted by the constitution as it establishes no particular religion.

All eight of Moore's colleagues on the Supreme Court voted to remove the display. They are hardly what Nigal would label “ultra liberal”. Seven of them are Republicans. One is a Baptist deacon and two are Methodist Sunday school teachers. This case has been decided by several conservative justices.

This whole battle over a stone monument is nothing but idolatry and a public display of false piety clearly forbidden by scripture. Moore moved this thing in under the cover of darkness like the Israelites did with the golden calf when Moses was away.”

“Give 'em hell, vIoLiN!

"ultra-left tactics", my eye!

I guess right-wing madness is a slippery slope.
When you're so far to the right that moderate politics is "ultra left" it must be like being in a pit.
Everything else seems way over the top.”

“Violin knocked that one into the upper deck!”

“"ultra-left tactics", my eye!"

PK then, how about yer a$$ then?

Displaying religious monuments does not violate any constitutional laws. If so, please show me which ones.”

“I am SO amused and pleased that the display was removed! This is a substantial victory for the establishment clause. It was clearly unconstitutional and the courts ruled correctly. Unfortunately, this will probably only motivate christians to make more and more attempts to subvert the constitution. But right now, I spit in their faces, laughing.”

“nice sentiment, mutt
(spitting in someone's face is bad, didn't you learn anything in kindergarten?)”

“"This is a substantial victory for the establishment clause."

How is it an establishment of a state religion? It's not.”

“True Fly, a simple "I fart in your general direction!" would be much more civil. Plus there is no actual exchange of bodily fluids. 8)”

“Whatever....”

“The courts are a government institution. The government cannot establish religion.

I don't know how to put it simpler than that. I think the burden of proof is on you to show that displaying an artifact that is overwhelmingly perceived to be of judeochristian origin in a government institution is NOT establishment.”

“Obviously Nigal, you just don't get it.

Tell it to the Judge!


Have you read the "ten commandments"?

Shalt not this and shalt not that!
Geez!”

“I think the opinion of the 11th Circuit is well reasoned. I have read excerpts from the Trial Judge's opinion and the fact pattern in this matter disturbs me. It disturbs me in that any elected official, much less a judge, would install a monument with not only an implied purpose, but an avowed purpose to promote a religious belief.

Justice Moore knew what he did was wrong, but did it anyway. I see a high level of hyprocrisy in his behavior.”

“The opinion is in PDF format.”

“"I think the burden of proof is on you to show that displaying an artifact that is overwhelmingly perceived to be of judeochristian origin in a government institution is NOT establishment."

When the laws of this country are taken directly from a religious document and implimented by the government. Not when a tiny fraction of a religious document is simply displayed on the lawn.

Did you know that Congress actually did pass a law stating what religion is the cornerstone of what this country was built upon?

I do think I need to state that this judge did go out looking for trouble and the religious bent he is displaying I think hurts his cause.”

“Nigal, read the facts of the case at the trial level and see if it doesn't change your mind. Justice Moore intended to promote a religious belief.”

“"Obviously Nigal, you just don't get it."

Well of course if I don't agree with you it must be some defect in MY thinking that causes me to "not get it".”

“Not when a tiny fraction of a religious document is simply displayed on the lawn.

But it's so fundamental to the religion! It sets the moral tone of the court - that of a christian code of ethics. That may not be a bad thing, but it's clearly unconstitutional. If I were a muslim falsely accused of terrorist activity, seeing the 10 commandments on the way to my trial would strike fear into my heart.”

“I still wonder if we would be seeing all the uproar if Justice Moore had installed a figure of Buddha?

(Note: Budda in this post = The fat guy, not the TT'er)”

“When I met "our" Buddha, he was quite large.

Maybe it was just the winter clothing.”

“So which commandment are you opposed to? Thou shall not kill? Seems like the 10 commandments would be a good prescription for what ails our society.”

“How about..
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

They don't personally bother me, but if your not a Christian they could be offensive.”

“So why did those Pilgrim guys come here in the first place?”

“Better women, Ynami!”

“For the cheese....”

“Historically, Christians haven't really been that keen on following the "thou shalt not kill" commandment, Savage.”

“I thought it was for potatoes....”

“Anyone notice that "Thou shalt not kill" has been replaced with "thou shalt not murder"

I am probably wrong on this, but I thought that was in the Jewish reading.”

“Oh yeah, easy women, that was it (I got away with that the first time I said it.... not sure about now though ;o) )”

“I’m not at all opposed to the 10 commandments. I teach them to my children and try to follow them myself. I sure don’t want to live in a theocracy though. I can’t think of where it’s ever worked out too well. You’re free to post them on your front lawn, in your place of worship, even your workplace. Symbols of a particular religion have no place on public property, that couldn’t be clearer in the Constitution. You are free to move to another country not founded on secular law.”

“The Pilgrims came to the New World in order to establish a religious colony free from the persecution of the English and the Dutch Churches.”

“And of course they were not the first Europeans here or the ones who established the laws of this country.”

“I tink our present day law is based
on the 10 commanmants. Look at your
money. "In God we trust"
Prosecuter is on a hike. Otherwise
he could answer this.”

“Then the first commandment bans all other forms of religion......”

“I am not opposed to any of the Ten Commandments. I have a firm belief in God and have no reservations about expressing my Christian beliefs.

However, I would have a serious problems with public officials sponsoring any religion on public property.

The fact that it is the Ten Commandments in question is totally irrelevant. The pertenant fact is that it is an attempt to "sponsor" or "promote" a particular religion. One of the cornerstones of Liberty, and in a large part one of the primary concerns of the Founders of this Country, was the Freedom to choose the path that an individual would follow in worship.

Yes, the commandments would be a good prescription for what ails our society. Regardless of anyones belief, or lack thereof, a common decency for the rights and concerns of others should be a fundamental concern.

What really sets me off however, is all the talk of how the "liberals" are trying to screw this country. How the "liberals" are all heatherns who will use any means to make this country immoral.

Bull#&%!$!

I am a Chrisitan and a Mason, no less. I work for a company, in fact the only Fortune 500 Company, that uses as its First Corporate Objective "To Honor God in all we do". I believe that I should be allowed to be the sole influence on my young children as to their beliefs and opinions. If I do my job correctly, they will approach the world with eyes wide open. They may not maintain the beliefs I have, but bygod, I can rest assured that they were not influenced by outside factors until they were of the age to make rational, well thought out decisions.

So, bash the left, give us hell. Don't let up. But it will continue to be people, much like myself, on the left, that continue to take risks and challenge the system, to preserve the same Liberties that people on the right crave.

To call Justice Moores actions as an advancement of Liberties and Rights is not only wrong, it is warped. If he had erected the golden calf and claimed Moses was a heretic and he wanted everyone to recognize what he perceived as the "true law"; the same people who are in tears and laying down in front of the Supreme Court building to protect the "monument", would be hunting the good Justice down with a rope.

The reason for the uproar is because the majority of us believe in the Ten Commandments and believe in God. Is that Liberty? Hell no, it tramples on those who believe differently, and the basic right to believe differently is what makes this country what it is.

Call me a leftist, call me a communist, I really don't give a damn. But I will continue the struggle, to the best of my ability and capacity, to protect and preserve the Constitution of these United States.

To me our Contitution is woven from frabic containing the common thread of Individual Liberty.”

“You go chili36”

“pinko”

“What Chili36 said.”

“well said, chili.”

“I'm fine with people having and loving their religions and having faith in their lives.

But shouldn't religion be a private affair?
Something that you have and hold dear, and don't have to spout on and on about it 24/7. If I'm happy shouldn't that be enough, if your happy shouldn't that be even better?
Does seeing your religion in front of your eyes make it easier for you to have your so-called faith?..To me that sounds like a diminissment of that "faith"
It would seem to me that ones beliefs would be stronger, more powerful, and worth more in a place with something as paltry as a manmade trinket”

“EDIT....replace last WITH with WITHOUT”

“I usually keep my opinions about religion and religious people to myself, so I'll play devil's advocate here and let some historical figures do the talking for me. Emphasis added in case we miss some key words or phrases.


"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

-- First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

Or if you don't think much of him, how about this guy:

"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."

-- [Liberal] Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren

No? How about this minor figure in American history:

"... Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word ... Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land."

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

-- George Washington

I'm not sure if this one is relevant to what's going on in Alabama, but I'll throw it in here anyway:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

-- John Quincy Adams
I don't know much about Grover Cleveland, but he must have been alright, since he managed to become President:

"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship."

-- Grover Cleveland

Here's someone a little more recent;

"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture."

-- Woodrow Wilson

Well, this is getting long, so I'll stop. Don't ask me to argue this with you, since I can't speak for the former leaders of our country. Of course, their statements are open to your interpretation, but they're written pretty clearly to me.”

“I believe that God is in the trees, the mountains, the air we breath and in all of us.

I don't need to pray on Sunday, I pray every day.

I don't need to go to church, the world and the Heavens above is my church.

I don't need to put religion icons everywhere because God is everywhere.

I don't need someone to tell me how to worship because I have opened my own dialog with the Creator.”