Almost killed by the EMTs

“As a reporter, I followed our town ambulances to an accident site on the highway this morning. There was a single pickup, rolled over in the ditch on its side. The EMTs appeared to be working on a girl. I think one of the firemen said something like, "She's be fine. It's not much," as I approached.

The sun was glaring in two big spots on the pickup, so I knew I couldn't get a photo from where I was at. I got around the ambulance to the other far side. I proceeded to start taking photos at a quite respectable distance of the EMTs working on the gal and the firemen inspecting the truck.

Then something happened that has never happened in all my days covering accidents.

I hear a guy EMT yell, "Hey, she's taking pictures over there." Now, I can't recall quit how all this happened, but someone said, "You can't take pictures." Thinking that they thought I was some joe blow I said, "I'm press."

Then some woman EMT was looking real irate. I recognized her (but didn't know her name offhand) because on Wed. evening I had taken a very nice shot of the EMTs, to run in a 9/11 salute at our paper that's coming up.

Soon, she came stomping over to me. The conversation went something like this:
Her: You can't take pictures.
Me: I'm press. Yes, I can.
Her: You can wait till the person is taken away and the ambulance is gone. Then you can get a shot of the pickup (and I think she added, well, if the firemen are through)
Me: I can take pictures here.
Her: THESE ARE THE RULES!
Me: There are no such rules.
Her: "THESE ARE *OUR* RULES!"

And then she said some more stuff, something involving my camera and getting my film. I can quote her on this: "WE'LL SMASH YOUR CAMERA!"

She stomped back to the victim, and talked to a fireman. Soon the fire chief came over and nicely asked me to leave. I said, Why? I don't have to leave? He said, It's rules. I said, There are no such rules."

They are all looking ready to kill me by this time. So I started to head away. As I walked by the ambulance, some redhead came just tearing around its corner, looking incensed and coming toward me. I kicked my exit into high gear.

Hey, I'd stand up to these people, but if my camera were to get smashed, I might be without one for awhile.

So, I ask you EMTs and/or medical people -- WHAT THE F V CK WAS THAT??!!? I have never had a response like that at an accident.

I know enough to stay out of the way and I certainly was out of the way. I'm thinking I was 40 ft. from the victim. And no nearer the pickup truck. Any shot I was getting of the EMTs had the victims back to the camera, as she was sitting up. I try to be tasteful in shooting accidents.

Also, I think I saw a guy who is the chief deputy from the sheriff's office out there. He WAS NOT yelling at me to leave.

I just can't believe this behavior. I went back to my office sorely shook. Immediately I called my boss and said, Are there new HIPPA laws? (even if so, I would think that would be for ambulance personnel, certainly not press. Unless they are to protect the identity of victims with threat of harm to the press.)

All I can think of is this:
1. It was someone close to them, so they freaked.
2. They were doing something they shouldn't have been, like a wrong procedure or no gloves or whatever.

GEEEEEEEEEZ!! I still can't believe this. Good thing I didn't trip as I left. They would have stomped on me and my camera. I am appalled.”

“Was a blue dress involved?”

“I say print the story.”

“Hmm, that's kind of odd. Usually if the emts have a problem, they get the deputy or Trooper to ask the press to back off, but I would think 40ft is fine, especially if it's not an exceptionally busy crash scene and there are no really nasty injuries or fatalities.”

“next time kick her @$$

we as TT people will chip in a pay for a new camera!!”

“yes, and maple will chip in double to cover my part.”

“lizs - Glad you are OK.
The only thing I can think of is maybe the victim had some clothing removed and wasn't "modest".
Guard that film!”

“need i remind you...

cat fight and photos.

liz, sorry you had to deal with that kind of crap. i had to deal with a moron last weekend. but i had to stick my tail between my legs and just let it go. even when I was reported for doing nothing...”

“Right now tensions in this town area sky high over who is for and against a proposed tire burning plant... not that this has anything to do with that. And you have to remember this is small town (VERY small town) America.

I am thinking of writing a column about this experience while NOT saying it was this very town's EMTs (although there would be a photo on the front of an accident).

I can say how I just covered this accident and it reminded me of a town where I had a bad experience covering an accident. And give the details. And then go into why I have a right to be there as a journalist... and how I wasn't bothering anyone.

Geez, I mean, I have shot accidents with victims on the stretcher (and later dying), managing to get a peek between the people carrying it -- and yes, still managing to stay out of the way (but a lot closer in, obviously).

They usually do try to hide the victim. I'll give them that, I would TRY if it were my job. BUT YOU DON'T SCREAM AT THE REPORTER TO LEAVE. Had they wanted to protect anyone, they just should have gathered around her in a very tight circle.

I'll have to ask the boss if approaching it from a "fable" would work. Although by that time I would guess most everyone would know which town was being referred to.

Also, now I have to live here, so I have to hit a happy medium. I have a call in to the Sheriff's dept guy who was there, so I'll ask him what the heck was up out there. I mean, I swear they woulda lynched me!”

“Go above their head. I don't know what the rules are here but I've had a cop try and confiscate film from a reporter before who thankfully told him where to get off.
What you need to do is talk to the guy in charge of the county or whatever would be the lead organization in the area, or their press spokesman, explain that it's all about showing the hard work of the team and the valuable role they play and then ask that someone there send out a memo making it clear what these people can and can't do in those situations.

You're also a reporter. Let your editor take some of the flak on this, this is what he's paid for. It's also his/her decision on whether to run the story/pictures, you just put them in front of him.

Nothing against the emergency crews but most of the time they have little idea of what they can and can't do regarding the press. They like to think they have control over the entire situation but they don't. You did completely the right thing.”

“I personally wouldn't do a story about it, just cover it straight, but talk to the organizations involved - you have to work with them in future so don't burn bridges on this one.”

“And by the way, the fire chief looked a little sheepish when he came up to make his request. It appeared he was doing it just because he had been asked.

The guy who first yelled, "She's taking pictures," is a guy who was prominently at the front of an ambulance stretcher in an accident photo I took last year. I wonder if he got in some type of trouble for something with that photo?”

“If they would have come for that camera, I would have been kicking, most likely, because I had the camera in my hand.

And it's a digital. No worry. I should have photos unless I did something unthinkably stupid.”

“Whatever you do lizs, make sure your paper and editor are going to stand behind you.
There might be a good-ol-boys agreement on what the press can do in your new town.”

“ok liz, please do not get mad at me for saying this. it was how i was feeling at the time...


Sept 13th I'd have to say about 4:30pm (late afternoon)

we were down by ground zero.
we started to get a lot of people volunteering and making donations. it was very busy and very hot and smokey with trucks and sirens going on all around us.

when a tv reporter showed up and stuck a mic and camera in my face wanting a interview right there and then.

I flipped out. who the hell did this guy think he was to try and interview me with all this horror going on around me?
if i could have gotten a grip on his camera i would have thrown it to the ground. i asked him to please stop(well ok i may not have said please) and if he wanted to help then HELP by handing out food to the workers.
he got mad at me!!

as the days went on, more and more news people showed up. i wanted them to just all go away.

so maybe in her frame of mind that was how she felt about you. she just didnt want you there snapping her pic.

liz, please don't get made at me for this :)”

“People do get annoyed, I had someone try and call a photographer a papperazi after the Diana thing (and he was a little old guy who would take snaps of village cricket and school fetes and stuff) but there is a bigger picture. While some reporters go too far they do have a job to do - people have a right to know what goes on.

The guy in this case may not like having his picture taken, but he works (or volunteers) for a public organization, was at a situation in a public place, at an incident which is of interest to the rest of the people in the town. His views on having his picture taken really don't come into it.”

“Ethics do get involved, but a minor incident like this is not an ethical one :o)”

“mapleleaf, let me ask if you're a trained EMT? It sounds like you were volunteering.

I understand that the press is not always welcome at scenes of horrific tragedy. Yet the scenes left behind show so much of human spirit, the teamwork involved (as Ynami said above), the awfulness of what happened and how can it be prevented from happening again?

I understand it gets old. I, myself, have a hard time doing a spoken interview with people at a time like that, although I have. A still photo is slightly easier, because you're out of the way (or you better be)... just doing the job that's your livelihood as inconspicuously as possible.

I asked if you were a trained EMT because these people are. They should not be yelling at a reporter. They should be tending the victim. My god, where are the priorities?”

“Here in the big town police and emergency people all react differently at different times. We never know quite what to expect at the scene. I always tell people to follow any directions that are given.

Of course, we also have a policy at the paper (longstanding) that we do not take photos of bodies or injured people.

But it sounds like yours was a generic photo and the EMTs over-reacted. I'd take it up with the chief of the squad. Or better yet, your editor should take it up, very strongly, on behalf of the paper.”

“"As a reporter, I followed our town ambulances to an accident site on the highway this morning."

You should become a lawyer!!!”

“It doesn't even matter if you're the press, you can stand around on public property and watch what they're doing and take pictures, as long as you're not interfering with what they're doing.

I forget the specifics (probably because I never knew them), but I'm certain that not too long ago I read a case annotation in one of the advance sheets about some police-observing gadfly. As I recall, this guy (not a member of the press) used to sit around on public sidewalks and watch the police arrest people (he may have taken pictures). The cops either tried to arrest him, or did, and he sued for something (1983 civil rights violation?) and won. Bottom line was he was allowed to observe the police as long as he wasn't in the way.

Of course, all those niceties of constitutional law don't do anything for you in small-town America when you're up agin folks who have no concern for those constitutional niceties.”

“Either that or get a bigger lens and stand further away so they can't see you :o)”

“mapleleaf, let me ask if you're a trained EMT? It sounds like you were volunteering.


no not trained. not sure if i could handle being. anyone that is all heros!

we just handed out food and water and tried to take good care of the guys that were going into and out of ground zero.

(take care= making sure they ate, talking to, have a shoulder there when they broke down)”

“And from a purely professional point of view you should take a few pics as you don't know who was involved in the crash. It could be a senator involved in a scandal ;o)”

“Dr. Pivo is precisely right. Anybody can take photos in a public place of anything that is happening.”

“I agree. I would never want the job of either EMT or fireman. I admire what they do. But to be accosted by them at the scene of an accident??

Perhaps what was most scary is that cooler heads were not prevailing. It was like a wildfire out of control. First one person was mad... then four people were mad. And no one was sticking up for journalistic rights.

All that anger and hatred was aimed at me. I felt like an ant being fried under a magnifying glass. I've never felt so hated.

And that is very, VERY wrong coming from EMTs at an accident scene.”

“At least in Pennsylvania, where all the public officials are so enlightened and aware of their constitutional obligations.”

“Before Governor Rendell comes after me, let me clarify that my post was a totally serious response to Geobeet's, not a bitterly sarcastic one to lizs's.”

“Lizs, with all the new push with HIPPA and privacy, confidentiality, etc. We healthcare workers are really feeling the heat. Add to that the stress of trying to be out in the field caring for someone..... it is a powder keg. I will make the prediction that for folks like yourself the next bit you will encounter an increasing amount of this sort of reaction. It probably gets to be a knee jerk thing for these EMT's after they've had enough of HIPPA laws pushed on them. We've all had to attend conferences and pass courses to be certified to do what we've been or should've been doing all along. Protecting patient privacy and info is a huge deal right now.”

“I guess I'm in the minortiy here, but I don't totally buy the whole "publics right to know" bs. Yes, there are times when that is important. I feel that taking pictures of an EMT scene while they are working on someone is rather cryptic. It would make me mad if I was the EMT or the patient. I would actually WANT the EMT to act that way towards a member of the media if I was the patient.

I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but there are new medical privacy laws. They go so far as to even prevent a sports coach from talking about the injuries of his players.”

“last weekend i was at the aquarium volunteering. as i was getting ready to leave i see this guy standing yelling at the guy taking tickets. he was holding a bird. i noticed that it had a broken wing. i asked the guy what was going on and he said no one would help him. i took him to the front office and no one would help me. i was soooo pissed!! i can underastand why they would not help the bird so i asked them to please give me a number of a vett in the area.
(it was late in the evening and i wanted a place that was open 24hrs)
well this turned into that..

I got reported to the volunteer co.
i wanted to beat the every loving crap out of his woman.
did not understand why she wanted to go after me and not want to deal with the injured bird. i felt that it was more importain then the fact that i was standing there.

i just left because i new if i stayed any longer i would have lost control and then that would mean no more volunteering there.

im still pissed big time!!

Ps, since then they have posted info as to where to take injured aniamls after hours :)”

“"Perhaps what was most scary is that cooler heads were not prevailing. It was like a wildfire out of control. First one person was mad... then four people were mad. And no one was sticking up for journalistic rights."

If I were the EMT I'd be way more worried about the patient than journalistic rights. Journalistic rights are the LEAST important thing in that instance. Patient care is first.”

“Well, it's pretty obvious, ML. They want to discourage their volunteers from taking any initiative. Ever. Just be a good little volunteer and scoop up fish poop or whatever.

Not the best way to treat volunteers, but it's obviously what they want to do.”

“If it bleeds, it leads.”

“The more that I think about what happened to lizs, the more I think the new patient privacy laws (or actually, their interpretation) are at fault. Some EMT probably asked their supervisor if they were to keep people from photographing accident victims, and the super, in full CYA mode, said yes. So those EMT's probably think they're going to lose their jobs if they let you take pics.

There's some idiot at the bottom of all this, and it ain't lizs. I think you should definitely pursue the reasons for this, lizs. Maybe you can get it all cleared up.”

“Yes, going through channels is definitely best, especially in a small town. Of course MY initial response would be to set them on fire and roast marshmallows, LOL...

A news outlet can censor itself and conform to local or societal norms (i.e. refrain from publishing particular photos), but for anyone to attempt to exert some prior restraint on the press on public property seems patently unconstitutional.

BTW... That Rep. from South Dakota was charged with second-degree manslaughter today.”

“I agree its worth looking into further for a variety of reasons. It would be the right thing to do on a couple levels. It would likely help your career out and possibly prevent further misunderstandings in the future or at least cut down on some of it. Secondly, Bit is probably right. I've seen EMT's.... some of the nicest most caring ones.... get bawled out for wanting a freakin face sheet on a patient they're transporting. They only do it to get a thumbnail sketch of who this is and what they're dealing with to CARE for this patient. They get blessed out like dogs for it many times. They don't make alot of money and they are scared to move a toenail lest they transgress. Its not right for Lizs to get yelled at, but these folks get it too. Its unfortunate.”

“so there is fine line between freedom of speech via photographs and laws?”

“dayhiker - so you're suggesting that just because somebody doesn't want their picture taken they shouldn't have it taken? Where would you draw the line, a ciminal leaving court, an expose into fraud, maybe the arrest of some drug dealers, I'm sure that none of them would like to have their picture taken. And ok, you make say this may seem to be different from an accident victim, but once you start trying to draw ramdon lines where pictures can and can't be taken you start getting into a whole big mess.”

“Mapleleaf, can you try that question again?”

“hey they passed a law here recently about not being able to take pics of perps on those famous perp walks (coming out of jail)

but they are the best pics!! LOL
j/k”

“No, but I've always felt that "journalistic rights" at the expense of personal rights and privacy isn't fair. This isn't something I've run up on, obviously, but it seems that the press thinks they can do anything they damn well please as long as they're with the media.”

“That's interesting. I seem to remember some uproar about the perp walks, many of which appeared to be staged, but I can't believe that any law was passed to prevent taking pictures.”

“Oops, I meant to say that this isn't something I've spent alot of time reading up on, obviously, ...”

“so there is fine line between freedom of speech via photographs and laws?

Not really (if I understand your post).

A photographer generally can photograph anything he or she wants provided that they're on public property at the time or have permission from the owner of the property on which they're standing. Exceptions might be things like military bases, using a telescope-like zoom lens to peer into someone's bedroom window, or other sorts of extremes.

Where things get interesting is what the photographer can then DO with said photographs. Commercial use gets interesting with issues of using people's likeness for commercial gain, property releases, model release, etc.

However, for a news photograph it's pretty simple though -- the photograph cannot be used in a slanderous manner, i.e. it cannot be used to give an false and derogatory impression to the viewer. The media is the exception , although commercial in nature, printing a news picture in the newspaper is considered "news" usage.

For more info, check out the book Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images by Bert P. Krages or any of the other similar texts.”

“"journalistic rights" at the expense of personal rights and privacy isn't fair

Trouble is that what goes on in public is considered public. To me it seems pretty clear that when I walk down the sidewalk or across the town square I have NO expectation of privacy.

Similarly, what I do while on private property while in clear view of public property (i.e. the street) isn't really private either. On the other hand, what I do in my back yard IS private as one would have to trespass or go to extreme measures to be able to "see" there.

It boils down to "reasonable expectation of privacy", and your right to privacy (at least in terms of being seen or photographed) ends when you step onto public property.”

“I'll buy that deeddawg, but because I was out in public in a car and had the misfortune to be in an accident and am still in public people should be able to just shoot away? Say I'm rushing my wife to the hospital and we aren't going to make it and are met halfway by an EMT. The press can click away at the birth of my child?”

“Absolutely. No prior restraint.”

“Translate?”

“dayhiker -- I'm no law expert, but I have spent some time checking up on law and photography as I do shoot as a side-line.

My understanding is that yes, technically someone could do that. It'd be tasteless and tacky as all getout to publish anything but a "feel good" momma&new-baby type shot along with the story, but I can't think of any specific legal reason preventing them from doing whatever they please.

The flip side remember is that a newspaper has to pay the bills and does so by selling papers. They probably won't want to anger their readership much, and as such may exercise some restraint and tact in what they choose to publish.”