Rumsfeld Tours Iraq, Celebrates Successe s

“Some of what bugs me is that a number of the people doing this were reservists, including Lynddie Whatevertheheckhernameis (the one who is pictured pointing and giving thumbs up) without any training for being a prison guard.

Iraq came on the heels of Afghanistan and this administration arrogantly brushed aside estimates of the manpower we would need to bring order to Iraq (including things like prison guards). They went ahead without the manpower necessary and when confronted with the reality of the situation, brought in weekend warriors and put them in dangerous and (like this) sensitive areas without the proper training.

While I find Birch's accusation of taking pleasure in my nations blunders offensive, I am saddened by the situation we find ourselves in, and will do my best with my vote to make that situation a little better come November.”

“Nope! and heavens nope!

Not attacking at all!

I was trying to point out a "goose and the gander" thing.

The question should have been:

Do we, as Americans, feel comfortable about punishing for something that we ourselves have done?

The Ad Hoc committe for the Devil:

Saddam could use the same "excuse" as Bush did.

I truley agree that we must be able to rise above this, and bring everyone else with it. There is really no excuse for this type of behavior, but I do understand the explaination of why it happened. I was mearly trying to point out our (America's) hyprocritcal stand on this matter.

Sorry it read that way! I meant no attack to ya!”

“Hey, Birch, I didn't read justification in your posts. You were making a clear argument, and I was bringing in another viewpoint to round out the consideration. I really do agree that we broke it and now we have to fix it. The first response has to be more and better trained troups, ASAP.
Afghanistan was a proper response to terrorism. Good move on the administration's part. Iraq is quite another ball of wax.”

“The report details "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses," and "grave breaches of international law."

Isn't that what Dubya said about Saddam?

Prisoners of war are entitled to food, shelter, medical treatments, visits from relief agencies and protection against violence, intimidation, degrading treatment or pressure of any kind during interrogation. Mistreatment that amounts to "torture or inhuman treatment" is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions, and is considered a war crime.

Bush really needs to be put before a war crimes tribunal. This wasn't just some soldiers acting alone. You all know damn well this had the full support of the Bush administration.”

“Well, given the fact that Rumsfeld has known about this, and other abuses, for quite a while now, it makes you wonder whether he was concerned or not. I think he is sorry.....that he got caught.”

“That's a pretty bold statement, USA; however, I wounder how many people swung from the rafters in past wars for the same thing?

Is it too much to think that what we champion, could be used against us?

I mean, are there two sets of rules here: One for the US and one for everyone else?

Should we be held to the same things that we hold everyone else to, or should we be exempt...like it's always been?”

“I agree with Dunadan. Bush isn't sorry this happened, otherwise he would have apologized long ago. He is sorry he got caught.”

“I too, would have to agree. Why was it so hard for Bush, in his interviews, to say he was sorry? He used a fancy word, what? Aborhant, or something like that, instead, only to come out later and say today he was sorry.

He was afraid that his "sorry" would run in loops on the TV's on the Arab street. That's why.”

“Don't get me wrong, I am not out on the right wing, just right of center.

As a career Sailor I don't condone what is happening to those prisoner. I also cannot condone what is happening here at home.

I among thousands of others guaruntee the freedoms we enjoy, but they must not be taken to the extremes.

If we are more centered in our life styles there wouldn't be all the infighting, that unless changed, will bring this country down.”

“os - thank you very much for serving. I almost enlisted in the Navy many moons ago, and I look back on tat point in tme in my life with mixed emotions. I'd like to have served, but the trade off of the other part of my situation would not have been so great (I was hooked up with a real #&%!$ of a girl friend back then).”

“As the President is getting off the helicopter in front of the White House, he has a baby pig under each arm.
The Marine guard snaps to attention, salutes, and says: "Nice pigs, sir!"

The President replies: "These are not pigs, these are authentic Texan Razorback Hogs. I got one for VP Cheney, and I got one for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld."

The Marine again snaps to attention, salutes, and replies, "Nice trade, sir!"”

“"While I find Birch's accusation of taking pleasure in my nations blunders offensive...."

Phaedrus, do you have a guilty conscience? Birch never mentioned any names. Why are you offended? ;)”

“Some of you may be surprised to find out that the majority of reservists have very little formal training for the jobs they do. It used to be that you had to be prior active duty to be in the reserves. Now they take "Joe Average" right off the street without Boot Camp or AIT("A School) and put them in most any unit. Fortunately I'm still in an "Old School" type unit, but I have seen the effects on those around me.”

“I thought reservists went through boot but not the advanced school?”

“Me too.”

“no kidding, nigal, so did I.

johnson's comment is quite interesting. Is it true? I could walk right in, become a reserve with no boot?

Can anyone else out there confirm his statement??”

“There seems to be one overarching theme to the right-wing drumbeat: If everyone was a Stepford Bush fan, it'd be a perfect world, right? LMAO

Sorry -- no such luck, boys.”

“depending on there age it s not as extensive as active duty. The navy has a familiarization type course for professionals (anyone 26 - 36)”

“it wasn't too long ago I was in a band. The other two members (heh, I said member, and to a point, they were, but that's just band dynamics) were Marines, combat engineers to be exact. They had to go to boot, and there school. They were never full time in there careers.”

“I was in Great Lakes with several guys who were going to the reserves. They were in the full 12 weeks with us, but it might have been different for me, I was in a 900 company.”

“Where does the buck stop these days? I am going to trot out my standard question to supporters of the present administration: Had this happened on the watch of a Democratic (liberal) administration, what would your response have been?”

“The Navy has a familiarization course for professionals (anyone 26-36)”

“Ah. Maybe I should go back into the reseves... Nahhhh :)”

“Nigal - for crying out loud, man. Will you please quit throwing this out? This is a pure example of misinformation of something that has already been proven to be false.

If I am wrong, please show me new evidence then, not throw up the same chit that was debunked a million times."



Q,

http://michnews.com/artman/publish/article_3169.shtml

In his own words...

“I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others,” said Kerry as an anti-war activist guest on NBC’s Meet the Press (quoted in Brinkley’s book, page 362) after he returned stateside, “in that I shot in free fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine [gun] bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these acts are contrary to the laws of the Geneva Convention, and all were ordered as written, established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered this are war criminals.”

While Kerry’s crimes were far more criminal than that which happened in Iraq there is no excuse for what happened. This is in no way trying to justify what did happen because it’s indefensible. I just enjoy the irony of the left calling for Rumy’s head but yet their candidate is far worse than photo snapping idiots.”

“Wait here's that r I forgot.

Hey johnson, did you have a NIC?”

“Phaedrus, you have to keep in mind that was the old navy not the new navy. this has been going on for only the last five or six years”

“NEC - no”

“Nigal, on those grounds, just about any US soldier in combat in Vietnam would be a war criminal.

Why do you hate America?”

“nigal - is this the only source you have? I'm not busting yer balls here, but the link you provided took me to a site that is less than neutral, it's a right wing site.

This writer doesn't put the quote in his piece, as you have laid it out, you have to go to the link provided in the piece to get to the quote you posted, a link I might add that takes you to a Republican Conservative site.

Is this unbiased reporting?

You debunk links provided by the left in the past when they have done the same exact thing. So, again, is it fair for me to suggest that this "writer" doesn't have a political adgenda, or does this only go one way?”

“"This writer doesn't put the quote in his piece, as you have laid it out,....."

I'm sorry, this is an incorrect statement. The writer does put this quote in his piece, just not the whole quote as you laid out. He leaves out the part were Kerry went on to say that he felt the --parapharsing here -- REPUBLICAN leaders should be held as war crimminals.

Leaving out the WHOLE truth is just as bad as telling a lie.”

“Phaedrus are you questioning my validity.

USS Lincoln (CVN 72) 89-93
HHC 416th Engr Gp 93-99
MIUW 201 99-pres

I was in the Gulf War, was in the Gulf after the Cole incident(and on duty 9/11) and activated for this last war, with anthoer pending.

I have 15 years of service, 4 active navy as an OS, 6 army reserve as a Combat Engineer, 5 navy reserve as an OS.”

“How did it look like I was questioning your validity?”

“"Wait here's that r I forgot.

Hey johnson, did you have a NIC?"


Looks like a question to me”

“Sure it was a question, but I fail to see how it pertains to your validity.”

“It seems as though you didn't believe that I know what i am talking about, or were you just trying to catch me lying.

and it NEC not NIC "Naval Enlisted Classification Code"”

“1. I've been out for ten years, so you'll have to forgive my misuse of the acronyms.

2. I asked because I was interested. I spent much of my time in the Gulf doing OJT for AIC, but never went to the school after, since they decided to send me to JOTS training instead.

3. quit being so damn sensitive.”

“os - in all fairness, you haven't post here all that much. That being said, (and I don't want to speak for anyone else here), what you are laying out is a little interesting to those, like myself, who have some little bit of knowledge about how teh military works. You comment kinda went against that thought. Compile that with the fact that you are not really known here, the word troll jumps to mind, based on tactics from the past.

I wouldn't take what Phead said to heart. If he wanted to insult, or otherwise queston you and your service, you would know it.”

“That was the first one that I went to (I don’t have hours upon hours to dig as I’m not at work) and even though it is a rightwing site I felt it valid because it was using actual quotes from a BOOK (quoted in Brinkley’s book, page 362) rather than just trying to go on an opinion. When I do not accept the word of a leftist leaning cut and paste job it is normally because it is all based on opinion and not on provable facts.

The fact that the quote I used is not the same as the one on the site but yet gives the full quote should be seen as an act of honesty rather than inconsistency. And even so, how would it change the context? It doesn’t. It is being forthright…

“and all were ordered as written, established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered this are war criminals.”

Going even beyond this statement of admission we have Kerry’s own testimony in Washington where he testified that he witnessed such things as people being, "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs ... poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

The fact that he witnessed this and did nothing makes him a criminal. And let’s not try the, “well everyone was doing it” argument because that would be doing the same thing the left is saying defenders of the Iraqi acts are trying to do.”

“"Whatever happened to Bush's "number one priority" of capturing Bin Laden, by the way?"
~Forrest

Osama bin Laden is entombed in a bunker in the mountains of Tora Bora. There was a "bunker buster" bomb dropped from a B-52, or an F-18, or an A-10, or whatever, with ObL written all over it - and it found it's target.

The Bush administration is quick to confirm that the audios of late are, indeed, borne of the mouth of ObL, but we know it's actually the voice of some second-rate Abdullah Rich Little Mohommad wannabe.

Prior to the onset of Operation Get That Lanky-a$$, Rag-headed, Sock Tucking, Muddafookin' Sand Yankee Beeyaaaaatch, ObL put out more discusting videos than Paris Hilton. Then came the the bunker buster. Then.... nothing. Scratchy audios? Yeah. ObL? Methinks not.

"Osama been forgotten" (Al Sharpton, shamelessly, during a Democrat debate last fall - as courageous American soldiers were falling dead in Afghanistan in persuit of someone who was faaaar from forgotten)

Dead? I can only speculate. But you gotta remember... special forces were combing Afghanistan in advance of Operation Kill That Sonofabytchin' Evil Mohommad Worshippin' American Hating Oh By The Way Islam Is A Religion Of Love And Acceptance Of Human Diversity And Equal Rights For All People... Even Women!, and had quite possibly pin-pointed the pinhead.

Yep. I think he's dead. I say we load a bunch of heavy equipment on some donkeys and make the week-long trek into Tora Bora and begin excavating each and every busted bunker... just to confirm my hunch. That shouldn't take but two...mebbe three generations.

Lets recap some stuff...

Argument
1) It's about the gosh darn oil!
Yes it was...
for Germany, France, Russia, et al.
The UN ran Oil for Food Program did little more than produce a bunch of billionaires... all in the pocket of SADdam (emphasis on first syllable means "boy" in Arabic - Saddam HATED that about Bush Sr.'s pronunciation!). At first, I thought aforementioned countrys' foot dragging was because they didn't want us to find a WMD program with their fingerprints all over it. But now, the truth is coming out. You're not gonna hear much about it in the mainstream media, for they're busy Bush-bashing - that's the only campaign Kerry has. Keep your eyes and ears peeled, and you'll catch a little here and there.

If it was really about the oil, we woulda stopped in Kuwait.

2) Where's that dog-gone Saddam?!
Found. You're welcome, BTW.

3) Where're those cotton-pickin' WMDs?!
They're in Syria, as has been suspected by Bush, et al. This was confirmed yesterday by the King of Jordan.... didn't you hear? No? Hmmmm... imagine that!

Be ready for a military offensive in that direction.

God Bless America!
And have mercy on the brave men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this Great Land - especially those Bois from Illinois who fell at the Dead Angle, Kennesaw Mountain Campaign, just so 100 years later, Betty Ruth's baby bouncing boy would be born in the United (and not Confederate) States of America.”

“Kerry was quoting servicemen who said, "I saw" or "I did". He was serving as a spokesman for some vets when he testified.
I am friends with several Viet Nam veterans who will corroborate the atrocities with some stories of their own. That war was a nightmarish fiasco.”

“nigal - I'll be blunt because I think my "wordyness" has gotten things mixed up here.

"The fact that the quote I used is not the same as the one on the site but yet gives the full quote should be seen as an act of honesty rather than inconsistency. And even so, how would it change the context? It doesn’t. It is being forthright…"


I am not (and if it came across that way -- I am sorry -) questioning YOU, rather the writer. The WRITER left out that part. To me, and again, I apologize if this comes out wrong, the writer has a biased opinion and it is proven when he leaves that part out.

You point out the same things to the left, as I've pointed out to you. I'm not stiring the pot; just looking for a little consistantcy around here.”

“Also Q, here’s an article showing how he later went on Meet the Press and tried to back peddle on his original quote.

http://www.pipeline.com/~rougeforum/kerrywarcrim.html

This guy has flip flopped on so many things HE doesn’t even know what he thinks. He speaks to Detroit auto workers and says how he has all these suvs but then on Earth Day he says he owns none and that they are owned by his family. (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2524680) He says he threw his metals, no wait, they were someone else’s, OK they were mine but they were ribbons. He calls companies that send jobs overseas Benedict Arnold corporations but then when it comes out 73% of the Heinz empire is overseas and he has millions invested in some of these Benedict Arnold corps he says he understands the need for overseas jobs. He bad mouths gas guzzling suvs but when it’s reported by Drudge he flew in his hair stylist on a private jet to give him a trim in the Midwest he won’t even address it. How the hell can we believe anything that comes out of this guy’s mouth?”

“Ok I over reacted, I'm sensitive when it comes to my experience lately.

I'm a mid 30's Catholic conservitive heterosexual male married father of three. and it seems that around everycorner their is someone that is attempting to contaminate my core belief system.

By the way I don't lie, I don't have to. People will believe what they want no matter what anyone says.”

“And your Precious Bodily Fluids, I'll bet.”

“By the way I don't lie, I don't have to. People will believe what they want no matter what anyone says."
~os1johnson

Republican:
"I'll believe it whan I see it."

Democrat:
"I'll see it when I believe it."”

“Uh oh, now Tilt hates you.

Now you've done it. Lookout.”

“" he testified that he witnessed such things as people being, "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs ... poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam......"



Originally, I thought that this was what you were going to refer to in the first place, and that piece has already been debunked as an outta context quote.

Moving on, I do not doubt the fact that Kerry is a phuck, almost in the same sence that I know you think less of Bush. I am, by no means, happy that the Kerry is the Dem front runner. I will not defend him, I rather try to make an effort to make sure EVERYONE here is quoting and refering to correct info. THAT is my only intention on this subject.

I will vote for Kerry for the same reason you will be voting for Bush; voting for the leser of the two phucks. We both are not happy with our choices, but we fear the other canidate will cause greater harm.”

“That is exactly why I said conservative. a nondenomiational political stance.


Tilt WTF?”

“PS - "How the hell can we believe anything that comes out of this guy’s mouth?......."


and we both know that this could be said about Bush as well.”

“Tilt hates God's people, OS1. You have to understand... *he's a godless heathen*”