Sept 11th. how will you remeber?

“I will remember how those Muslim p***ks took down 4 jets with BOX CUTTERS!! USA got caught with it's freakin pants down. It's gonna happen again.”

“Make it a national holiday? Then, by the same reasoning, Pearl Harbor Day should be a national holiday too. I think there is a little more to this than twirling some sparklers a la July 4th...”

“Some people handle it differently.
If you can shed a few tears or more
I think it's good for you because you feel better afterward.”

“The point is that some have already mourned, dealt with it and moved on. One should not be made to feel like they are being "offensive, insensitive, ignorant, and callous" because they can heal quicker than others.”

“I don't think it's about feeling better. It's about pausing to remember and honor those who died, which is not necessarily a way to feel better. Indeed, it's more painful. Those people died because they reflected us. They might be anonymous, but then so are soldiers who die in war anonymous to most of us. As far as I can see it, they were surrogates.

It's not about a day off work, just as Memorial Day is not about a day off work. Memorial Day to me is a day of obligation. Whether or not some people see it as National Barbecue Day is irrelevant to me.

I don't appreciate the inference that I am not entitled to express my feelings, or that I am somehow weak as a result of my feelings. However one chooses to mark the day or not mark the day is something each of us can decide on his or her own. What works for one may not work for another. Sassafras has a right to try and forget, Twinkle Toes has a right to observe it how she chooses, and Joe Bag O'Donuts in Mule Shoe, Ark., has a right to observe it or not as he chooses. But to infer that only people who lost relatives, or only New Yorkers, or only this group or that has a right to mourn and nobody else has that right is absurd on the face of it. They were our fellow citizens, selected by chance as our surrogates to die on a sunny September day when the entire country was rudely and horrifically interrupted from daily routine. In fact, people from the DC area died, people from Pennsylvania died, people who were citizens of other countries died, and even Arabs who were not the terrorists died. Service men and women died, cops and firefighters died, air crews died, mothers, fathers, children, died. Laborers and executives died. It has less to do with labels and more to do with the fact that WE came under attack, and this we need to remember.”

“geo, i appreciate your level-headed response. thank you for not having an emotional tirade. others could take a cue from you. that is how you strongly disagree with someone without blowing a cork.

however, since i cannot express myself without being attacked, ill go be a callous jerk somewhere else. peace”

“2scoops, i for one did get upset by what you wrote. it stung. but i understood why you wrote it. that was why i said that some wounds take a little more time to heal.


if you feel that im being a "cry baby"

then so be it. to each his own.

the way i try to look at things (and thats a big TRY) is,

i may not like or agree with the things people say and feel, but i should atleast try to understand why they feel or say some things.

i guess i get upset when i dont understand or if i feel they are just trying to be hurtful.

i did not think you were trying to be hurtful. i hope i am right about that.

am I?”

“Mapleleaf, just a side note, I am sending you an email.”

“I haven't responded to this thread until now because my feelings are mixed and it's just a personal thing with myself. Not something I feel I must share.
My heart does go out to all the families that have been hurt.”

“whatever.

it's easier to be nonchalant about this when you are sitting in indiana or where ever or are totally unemotional with no ties at all to the city - or dc or the people on the flights - as opposed to a high rise in the city that when you go up to the higher floors and look out across the city you will always be reminded by the empty space on the lower west, no matter how much time goes by or how much healing you think you've done....
or if you didn't work across the street from the towers passing them every morning and evening crossing the west side highway walkway for a year, in the summer sitting in the plaza listening to the bands that used to play, or in the autumn buying a fresh hot crispy kreme doughnut and coffee after getting a new book at the barnes & nobles and sitting again in the plaza hlaf reading and half people watching - people who may or may not have been in the building on 9/11 (knowing now that those buldings are gone - the underground mall is gone, the subway stop is gone and maybe the guy in the kiosk who you used to buy a soda from everyday is gone?)

or if you didn't have to see the pictures of the missing people, or smell the smell of ....., or wake up at 4am every morning as the military jets did their rounds up and down the hudson for a year, or every time something unusual happens - like the other plane that crashed a month later or even the recent blackout - your first thought is "is this going to be 9/11 again?"

or if for a year afterward you were afraid to do your job and go into the court houses downtown because of the frequent bomb threats and building evacuations

or if you didn't just meet a 23 year old who's father was killed in the wtc attack.

Sure - it's easy to be nonchalant. Sure it's easy to get the phuck over it and stop grieveing.

Yeah, I'm sick of the media coverage - and I have not and will not watch tv until after this week. Yeah, I'm bitter and callous about it - and I can see were your probably intended sarcasm is coming from but to say that those who did not directly know someone who died have no reason to continiue to griev and heal is indeed ignorant shiet. because no matter what there were a thousand indirect affects of these attacks.

and yeah - i'm getting worked up and pissed off because yeah - i'm still - after two freakin' years - dealing with the grief and anger.

and it's huge - it's better than a year ago - but it's still huge

so watch what you say because there are quite a few people who have scars deeper than you or even they can imagine or communicate.”

“Did twinks just 'whatever' me?”

“2scoops, I think you need to understand that people who were in New York that day saw this thing in a way you and I cannot. Television coverage does not do justice to it.

If you live in a city and the very symbol of the city's strength and importance, not to mention the most visible landmark for miles around, and not to mention the human toll, is attacked and leveled before your very eyes with thousands of people dying in an instant while you watch in fear and horror, you cannot expect those people not to react emotionally, to express emotions, or to have very strong opinions.

They were there that day and we were not, and there is a world of difference in that.

From time to time I have ignored Memorial Day and the rites that play out that day. I think at times I even resented it.

Then one day I found myself covering Memorial Day observances and writing down what speakers had to say. In time, I was invited to speak at Memorial Day observances, and I have to say my opinion has changed 180 degrees since attending that first observance.

Remembering sacrifice is important. Remembering attacks like Pearl Harbor or Sept. 11 is important, not because we enjoy weeping or opening old wounds, not because it is easy, not because we had to be there, but because we need to know what we as a nation have gone through together, and perhaps to determine that we will not allow it to happen again. That does not mean it will not happen again, or that we will be immune from tragedy. It just means we know something more of what it is to be an American.

Also, and I think this is very important, we let the families of the victims know that they are not alone in their loss, that we share that sense of loss, and that we wish them peace and comfort. If we cannot share experiences, what does bind us together?”

“no - i was whatever'ing 2poops and switchbiotch”

“mape, you live in nyc. if i were in your shoes, i would take the attacks somewhat as a personal affront. but to those ppl who were not directly affected, they should get on with their lives. take a minute on sept 11th, bow your head, and say a short prayer. but enough endless prattling. its been 2 years. those who WERE directly affected, i give ALL my sympathy to them. THEIR feelings about it matter. everyone else, of course you have a right to express it and no it doesnt make you weak, but just realize, alot of us DONT CARE. And it really ticks me off that im painted as a heartless animal when i express that. what about MY right to express myself? i get a big "screw you" twinkle toes. talk about immature. i say something non-pc and all of a sudden i have 666 marked on my forehead. at least geo knows how to make a passionate rebuttal without acting like a baby. and no, mape, i dont think youre a crybaby. you lived there. it was more immediate to you than to the rest of us. therefore your opinion does have some relevance to me.”

“wow i forgot about having to be evacuated almost everyday.

i remeber twignut and myself were in the train station one night having been down at ground zero and it was real late at night and seeing cops running around trying to get all the people out of the station due to a bomb threat.
i guess as time goes on you kinda forget stuff like that.

i forgot what it was like trying to get my kid the hell out of there as fast as i could and not trying to show her the panic i felt.

to many things happened that day. things i do want to forget. i could go on and tell you all more things that i remeber, but i cant do it anymore.

i just feel bad for the families.”

“Twinks was there 2scoops, and your responses rubbed salt in her wounds because it seemed as though you were challenging her right to her emotions. That's why she is upset, and I think you need to acknowledge that.”

“thank you 2scoops for your honesty. i am sure that alot more americans feel the same way you do and just wont say so. its sad but thems the facts of life.”

“ok i did exclude the ppl who witnessed the events from my comments. and anyone else who might have lost someone.”

“I think that it is on all of our minds, those of us who live in the areas impacted by the attacks. I react by hiking and praying. I don't want to go to any big get together. To me, those are for the people more directly affected, the ones who lost friends and family or were there to witness it first hand. I witnessed it from the couch, and as horrendous as that was, it was nothing like what Twinkle Toes and Mapleleaf went through.

But I have a friend who lost her brother to the trade center. She is our PTA president and is going on with life, business as usual. To her, it is more soothing than the alternative. She grieves everyday anyway.”

“Twinks makes some good points, as well as all of you, for that matter. It just may help to take a little of the edge off. Passion is ok, but let's not kill each other over it. She is 100% correct about the constant reminders. You think I enjoyed having my bag searched every day i went to work for four straight months, working in a high profile Manhattan office building? Of course not. My son has summed it up pretty well. He looks at the Manhaatan skyline like there are teeth missing from a mouth. Leave it to a kid to come up with an analogy like that. Yeah, the reminders are always there. Our freedoms have been a little restricted in places where they were looser before. we have had to deal with the condition of constant elevated security levels (we are always on the orange? one. Not sure of my freakin' colors. Sorry, Mr. Ridge). But you know what I mean. it is always there. So, Twinks is right. For myself and my family, we are pursuing something with other residents who were close to the site concerning the air quality there. No, it haasn't gone away. So, Twinks is correct and factually accurate. But, we are all on the same page on this one. Maybe if we pick up on tolerance of each other's feelings a bit more, we could turn a few negatives into positives...”

“maple, im really sorry i messed up your thread.

i guess i will commemorate 9/11 by arguing with my fellow trailtalkers.

geo- thank you, dr phil

twinks - my comments were not directed at you or the citizens of new york. i should have made that clearer. however, i did not know that you are not a new yorker. youse guys probably were screwed up over it.

everybody

im sorry im sorry im sorry”

“You seem like a good guy with a good head on your shoulders, scoop. Like I said, I believe we are all on the same page on this one...”

“I think distance does have a lot to do with it for me personally. Plus I was lucky enough to not lose andy family or friends or even acquaintences to that horrific day. This tragedy did not hit me nearly as hard as a lot of folks to be sure. I want to express my sincere sorrow that day and the many days that followed. My heart went out to all the victims families. I gained a great deal of respect for the fire fighters, police officers and everday citizens that ran to the aid of those in need. I get goose bumps thinking about how our nation unified like no other time in my life. My prayers went out to those affected by this tragedy.”

“Amen Geo.

What constitutes "directly affected?" As far as I'm concerned the whole nation was directly affected and continues to be directly affected by the results of 9-11 everyday.

I was working at Citibank at the time and the project I was a part of had teams in about five states. Our Business Group was in NYC. So we were all worried about the folks up there.

On each floor around the elevator there were tvs mounted on the walls and usually they spewed Citi-propaganda. On 9-11 some of us popped the lock on the secure closet that controlled the tv router and turned on the news for the whole building. The tvs were crowded with co-workers trying to find out what was going on.

Lots of us had conference calls unexpectedly cut short when the first plane hit. One of the guys who worked on my floor was in a conference call with a business in the first tower right where the first plane hit.

They saw the plane coming at them and he heard them all die. The moderator of the calls last words were "Jimmy, there is a large airplane about to fly into our building. This is my phone number, xxx-xxx-xxxx- please call my wife and tell her my last thoughts were of..." Static.

I was pretty affected I think.”

“2scoops. i dont think you screwed up my thread. its good to hear a another opinion once in a while.

gee im pretty mellow today.


tomorrow will be a different story!”

“Dr. Phil? Them's fightin words!”

“before I was done! Anyway, what I wanted to say was that I DO remember, I do care, I do have feelings and I don't feel I'm being nonchalant about this. But tomorrow is just another day to me. I will spend time with my kids, try not to watch any TV and go on living my life. I personally cannot live my life reflecting on the past. I need to keep looking forward. This is how I am. Each to their own.”

“2scoops,

I'm not trying to make an enemy out of you. I do not want to fight with you. I was offended and angry because your comment seemed to me to belittle and take away the right to grieve.

Remember, even if I were not a New Yorker I would still have a right to grieve. That's something that took me time to realize too. People handle grief differently.

Now, if we're talking about the media who is getting a sick kick and a nice buck off of perpetuating 9/11 that's whole other story which I think you and I are on the same side on.

Peace.”

“I actually agree with Bacpac and 2Scoops...I will do nothing but live my life tomorrow...I did my mourning the day it happened...now its time to live and fuk the terrorists that tried to fuk us.”

“I see where you're coming from, 2scoops, although you probably don't want me endorsing you.

Americans have a tendency to engage in awful self-indulgence when it comes to dramatic death. Take Princess Di for example. Obviously; some people actually enjoy mourning. It's a social act - almost a competition to see who can be most expressive and profound in their grief. It's a boost to their self-esteem ("Gee, I must be a really sensitive, caring person to feel so badly for those dead people and their families"). And some people use it to berate others to make themselves feel better - take a look at Geobeet's putridly schmaltzy post on Memorial day as an example.

It's funny to see people over-dramatize and socialize their grief over a dramatic death. It's got to be the least genuine expression of emotion they ever make - because people die all the time, and we hear about them dieing, and it's tragic, but these same people who make shameless displays of over-exaggerated emotion for a dramatic death, rarely if ever express grief the same way in other circumstances. Really, it's hypocritical.”

“It's mine and miss opies 5th year of dating anniversary...easy to remember now”

“Damn, and I spent all afternoon trying to make sure I got it right so Mutt would agree with me! I feel so ashamed that I didn't pass muster with the Lord and Master.”

“I watched a program on PBS entitled "Why The Towers Fell". In the midst of giving many scientific reasons why the actual structures went down, there was much that was powerful and moving. It had never hit home how the people who did not escape had to suffer for a long time before they actually went to their demise. I recommend you see this documentary if you get a chance.
I am already remembering exactly where I was and how I felt when the news broke. Even though I live in the Midwest, far away from where this occurred, I felt it personally. The jobsite where I was working shut down, because no one could go on working.
I will spend the day remembering, while I go about my work day. I'm sure many people will bring up the subject, just as they did last year, and we will stop to talk and wonder how we can make the world a place where this kind of action is less likely to take place again.
I advise everyone to be kind.”

“well, that didn't succeed. The terrorists failed. We as Americans and Humans, rose to the challenge and chose to be triumphant over hatred. We chose to live and be free, even though the government is trying to reduce and curtail that freedom, we are still free.

Maple...for your endurance and faith, I pray a painless day for you tomorrow.

Twinkle Toes...for your pain and grief, I wish an easy and stressless day for you tomorrow

For the rest of the New Yorkers (and I was one for 8 years) peace and have a light heart in the knowledge that the terrorists failed, all they did was unite us more, and gave us a symbol of hope.”

“Hey, stikmon demonstrated my point superbly! Thanks!”

“Whats done is done. The dead are buried. They cant come back. We each can honor them in a way we find meaningful to us. Mourning does nothing for the dead, theyremain as they are. Mourning is how the living cope. Some say a quick prayer, others relive every moment and will forever. Both are fine. It almost seems like there isa contest on who would mourn bigger and iff'n you dont do something really important then you must not care.

I will do nothing out of the ordinary. I refuse to allow terrorists to get one bit of satisfaction outta my sorrow. Each time we chane our laws, each time we react,each time we make a documentary and dwell on sept 11 we tell the terrorists...you got us, you are winning, we are still hurt, we will never be over it. The terrorists are still reaping the satisafction from their deed and will every time we make a big public affair about the tragedy.”

“if anything "positive" came from 9/11, it's that americans got a wake-up call about how lucky, fortunate, and blessed we are to live here. sometimes we take things for granted.

many people around the world are subject to war and atrocity on a regular basis, we have no concept what they have to go through. but we got an unfortunate clue on 9/11.”

“Dare I say...gulp...I agree with Mutt.

Signed the Christofascist.”

“they also tried to kill many americans...they succeeded.

they also tried to strike fear in our nation...they succeeded.

they also tried to disrupt or economy...they succeeded.

And they also tried to teach us a lesson...they failed.”

“mutt, i have no idea where you and nigal get the idea i dont like you......you guys are two of my favorite posters (im even getting better at telling youse guyz apart besides just "wordy guy 1" and "wordy guy 2").

mutt, you said much better what i was trying to say. well done.”

“france, spain, and all through europe...Jmitch said it right, we got a wake up call. I am totally surprised that the devestation did not continue. It would have so easy for the terrorists to continue the massacar throughout our land...thank god they didn't.

I lost 8 college friends, and knew many other former collegeus that worked at the WTC. I would have been working there, had I followed a different timeline.

The countless nameless faces that I passed on the streets, many of them are dust and ghosts. I loved sitting at the fountains at the feet of the towers, I loved dropping a dollar bill standing equidistant between the towers and watch it swirl around my body, I loved taking dates to the towers and sitting and listening to the wind channel down the towers...I have a photo of the towers that I took in 79,on my wall here at work now, I am looking at it and am traveling back to so many memories...I'm saddened by the loss, never to relive those past moments, never to see the dancing dollar, never to hear the wind channel down, but, I have new places to go to hear the wind, see the sky. I can go to Zion and see the towers that God made, I can go to the Rockies and hear the wind soar. Mapes, Twinks...let your heart and soul soar to the places that you have discovered during this past 2 years...let you soul find peace and new meaning. A part of my died 2 years ago...ghosts haunt my thoughts...but, I have new imaginings in my mind and heart...you do too.


Go Kayaking! and float the feelings away.”

“Thich Nat Hanh:

Breathing in, I calm my body.
Breathing out, I smile.
Breathing in, I am in the moment.
Breathing out, it is a beautiful moment.”

“we need to be appreciative and recognize the value in each other. not just in the US or NYC, but around the world.

the atrocity of 9/11 is just the tip of the iceburg, and dare i say, relatively minor compared to the holocaust, bosnia, rwanda, cambodia, etc, etc.

we mourn and remember, as we should, the lives of 3,000 people. other atrocities have claimed the lives of MILLIONS; neither must we forget them tomorrow.”

“Relatively minor? That garbage happens in other countries,where life is cheap.All of the third world wants to live here to enjoy
FREEDOM!!! and prosperity.”

“well, the holocaust didn't happen in a 3rd world nation.

human life is, or should be, equally valued and mourned whether it is lost in NYC or anywhere else. of course, i'm being ridiculously idealistic.”

“i think you have a good point.”

“The U.S.A. stopped the holocaust.
Jmitch your right, I wish life had
equal value elsewhere,but I don't
think the world works like that.
Very few countries do.”

“I actually agree with you on some of the things you said in your post, although I would have expressed it a bit differently. You have a penchant for condescension to drive your point home. I disagree with the shot you took at Geo as it was obviously a personal thing between you and he, owing nothing to the subject at hand. Frankly, I agree about the way Americans over dramatize certain things. I couldn't give a rat's ass about Princess Di, other than the fact that she was another human being, like you or I. I am unclear about something though. Unless you were aiming your post at those who posted here (excluding the ones that took your viewpoint), weren't you straying from the point a bit? Were you calling the posters hypocrites or were you just proselytizing your views on Americans and how they treat death? I say this because you have, in the past, accused me of the crime of oversensitivity. I am just wondering if your cutting style of expressing yourself above was simply what it stated or were there undertones of your past exhibitions of contempt for those of us here in this area of the country.”

“Yesss, I have. and?”