Mountaineering question -AGAIN!!!

“Still interested in it. If I would want to climb let's a 14er to start with. Don't know if that's a good mtn to start with, but I am figuring it's not all about hight. Probobly a lot more involved then hight...

Anyway, how should I start getting ready for "the big climb"??

No plans yet, but I want to at least get ready. Get in shape I guess...”

“Not an expert, but I will say GO FOR IT! Very cool that you're expanding on your outdoor interests and wanting to take it up.”

“always wanted to "go up", but didn't get higher then a little over 6,000 ft yet. I am planning on going west next year. Clem hopefully will be able to join me, if not...I'll go alone...don't care, but I go.

Maybe anyone else wants to join??

By that time I need to be in top shape! I mean TOP SHAPE!!!”

“6,000 feet is high?”

“If you're going to climb, I'd suggest some classes. 40 foot drop could kill you.”

“"In Shape" depends on the 14 you have targeted to climb. Any mountaineer here (SirPete, MtnSteve, IdahoBob) wil tell you that the elevation is only half the battle. I've climbed 4,000' peaks that were just as rigerous as a 14,000' peak.

You have to consider the following:
* Elevation
* Technicality
* Time of Year


I climbed Mt. Treadway (2,500+ ft) in the Daks in February, and it was just as tough as climbing mountains in Alaska, or 14'rs in Colorado in the summer.

Also, there is additional hurdles to mountaineering....... are you traversing glaciers? What elevation are you starting at, and what is your finish? How many days will it take to make your approach (i.e. trekking)?

I'll tell you this Gemini, I've felt equal satisfation, enjoyed similar challanges and enjoyed similar views in climbing a 4,000' peak and a 14,000' peak.

For example.... Mtn Steve is regularly climbing 12,000' peaks, in all conditions. The result is a great satisfation, awsome views, and challanging weather, elevation gains, etc.... Pennsy Hiker gains the same accomplishemnts climbing 4'000' peaks in the Daks, only without the obstacle of elevation sickness. The techicality, conditions and physical effort are the same, with only altitude being the difference.

email me if you want to learn more (I do too, and have made it a goal for this year and 04')”

“BTW - I'd be happy to join you out west next year... it's part of my plan (which I planned to do alone, but wouldn't mind sharing it with someone I know to a degree)”

“Gemini,

Your next step should be to head out west and climb something over 10,000 feet. Mt. Hood is the highest point in Oregon and an excellent beginner's test that will involve glacier travel, cramponing and ropes and harnesses. If you can't find some Left Coast TTers to guide you, you can sign on with one of a number of guide services that are available at the base of the mountain. A Oregon? (Washington?) based hiking club you may want to contact are the Mazamas, who have trips up many of the mountians in Oregon and Washington.

Hope that helps you.”

“Buddha, I am so ready to do this. Right now there is just something missing, and I know what it is.

I am really not sure what to say, I know I don't feel the "rush" if I don't climb high (in my case not higher then the east mtns). I am not saying that I don't enjoy the hike (lots of my hiking buddies missunderstand me in that way).
I just don't feel the "rush". I love the feeling of standing on top of a mtn, and/or climbing up high. I guess you'll don't understand it if you don't feel it. (my friend think I'm nuts and losing it more and more each day)

I have never felt any altitude sickness, but like I said I've never been over those same 6500 ft.

Captn Bobo: Left coast TTers huh?? Hmm, got to remember that one!! Left Coast TTers...Tsss!!! hahaha

Buddha, I'll send you an email later on. Going to bed now...dreaming...”

“I understand.”

“There's a strong possibility that I'll be traveling to Bolivia in late June 2004. My plan is to climb 21,000 ft. Illimani which will be a somewhat technical 2-3 day climb I've had my heart set on this climb for a number of years, but the chosen mountain is always up for discussion).
This is of course an open invite to any TTers who may be interested, whether you want to climb or just go to trek.

A prerequisite to do a climb this high will be for you to get up to 10,000 feet (Rockies, West Coast...) to see how your body responds to high altitude.

If anyone is really interested I'd be happy to provide more details.”

“Why Bolivia? What about Peru (Macchi Picchu)?”

“Gemeni, I'd seperate altitude and ice/snow/glacier travel. Get up high on a dry peak and see how you do. Do it right, acclimate properly, super-hydrate and carb load the day before and just go for it.

Once that's out of the way then you really need an avy class and a glacier class, or the equivalent experience before you go after a glaciated peak.

I will probably sneak out to Colorado a time or two in ought four, and you're welcome to come. Bolivia sounds really nice but is probably a stretch for me.”

“"Alpinism is the art of suffering."

Voytek Kurtyka”

“Go Hike in the White Mountains in New Hamshire. That's the most physically challenging and most draining hike I've ever done. Way tougher than the Grand Canyon!”

“"Life is Suffering"

Siddharta Guatama"”

“Gemini - climbing mountains is grand fun! You can get the same kick out of a 60 foot top roped climb, a two day slog up a glaciated volcano, or a multi-day mountaineering trip. To me they are all different flavors of the same feast. If you have the urge to climb a tall mountain, its very doable and you'll have a blast. There are some photos of Mt. Hood, and the Ptarmigan Traverse (http://alpenglow.org/themes/ptarmigan-1953/) on my photo page with Phil's page, for some ideas.

http://www.csupomona.edu/~rosenkrantz/personal/idahobob.htm

Generally, the more alpine the peak the heavier boots you'll need, with Hood and Rainier requiring boots compatible with crampons. Many Colo 14ers are much more like day hikes, since you start out so high. There aren't any 14ers in Idaho, but there is some great backpacking and mountaineering here.

Once you have the boots for your chosen destination, walk and work out in them, like on a treadmill with a pack on. I wore my big old Galibier Super Guides on the treadmill, and built up to a 75 pound pack the last time I climbed Rainier, several years ago. It still wasn't enough training, because when we did the peak, my actual pack to camp at 10,000' was 75 pounds! I was wiped out.

Depending on your destination, you might need to know how to self arrest with an ice axe, set up belays and protection, and use a rope with a partner. All but the self arrest part, you can learn in low elevation mountains and hills. However, there are a lot of 14ers that have 3rd class routes that don't require a rope. Some rock scrambling skills would always be good, however.

The better shape you are in, the more fun you will have, for sure. Keep us posted on your progress.

Bob”

“Gemini,

Join the American Alpine Club. I believe they have a chapter system like the Canadian one. I belong to our Montreal chapter and have met a lot of great people and have taken their free courses in avalanche rescue and glacier travel. The AAC also has rescue insurance to 6 000 m and higher at additional cost.

You can 'learn the ropes' at any indoor climbing facility. There are rock gyms in Asheville, Charlotte and Fayetteville listed in 'Climbing' magazine.

Also, you are more than welcome to join our 'Unca' Gremlin's Male Menopause Trip' on the trips page. It will be mountaineering without the ropes.

Cap'n, you gotta join Buddha Bear and the rest of us. Doing some serious #&%!$ before I'm forced to grow up is the hidden agenda here. I definitely want to get a team going for something before I'm too old.”

“...can I share pee bottles with you all??

LMAO.... I would love to go on this trip, but I think I will let this be the "male Menopause Trip" :-D Too much stuff I have to buy... warmer sleeping bag, 4 season tent, gortex glove liners, ice axe, crampons,etc... I need to get this stuff slowly, and december is not much time.”

“I know the feeling, Gem, but you're going to need the stuff anyway. Think about renting. That way you'll try things out and know what you want. Just being with other people and watching their equipment and how they do things is an education in itslef.

Trust Unca' Gremlin.”

“(snip) "Too much stuff I have to buy... warmer sleeping bag, 4 season tent, gortex glove liners, ice axe, crampons,etc"

Gemini, as Gremlin said a lot of stuff can and should be rented before you buy.
Double boots and crampons can be rented in various places in New York and New Hampshire.

You certainly should not buy a tent, shack up in someone else's for the trip, most 4 season tents are for 2 or 3 people so they can share the carrying. Ditto with stove and cook pans, help carry for those that have all the stuff.

What you do need is your clothing, all of it, from toes to fingertips, but none of it has to be Goretex. Goretex is better, but sometimes on a budget it is better to go low tech, and upgrade to better as each item wears out or as you pass out birthday and Christmas hints.

OR basic shell mitts and gaiters work just fine, most people do not sweat much through their hands or shins.
I used generic non breathable nylon rain gear (RedLedge cheapos) for years, and still only have a breathable jacket. Yes there is a downside, I had to put fleece on and off more often than with breathable gear and condensation would ice up the inside of the raingear, but every mountaineer had this until the last 6-7 years.

Polypro underwear smells nasty after the first couple of days, but campmor has it pretty cheap. Too bad, be nice for the next trip, but go, just make up your mind and go.

The most expensive item is free, experienced guides.”

“okay, I bookmarket the American Alpine Club. Got to read through it next.

I don't know where to start, so let's just start with the jacket:
I see so many choices, and I have some really good jackets at home, but most of them are thin and need to be part of a layer. I don't have a good down jacket.

Any suggestions? I really have no clue.
I guess I am going nuts because I get cold so easily, and I know it would spoil the whole trip if i would feeze. (on whatever trip I'll go, whenever)

I did look at crampons, ice axe, gloves and the other stuff, and I don't think that's a big problem. The jacket is what concerns me the most right now.

Oh yeah, and the pants. I am not sure if I need special extra thick showboarding kind a pants, or what....

I have to be honest, I am a big Goretex fan and I would rather buy goretex. I may have to wait and don't buy everything at once, but hey...so be it.


oh, and base layer: expedition weight or should I go mid weight??

Boy, I feel like I am on the trail for the first time...”

“I would sink some money into a real nice down sleeping bag. Figure $300-$700. Its a lot of dough, but it will last 20 years, and you just won't have to worry about ever sleeping cold. That is worth $100 per night. I love my Western Mountaineering bag, rated at 20 above, but it has probably 7 inches of loft.”

“You'll need a heavy duty, waterproof breathable shell. I have an old NF Mountainlight Jacket (goretex, breathable, pit zips) I normally then wear a heavy polar fleece jacket with pit zips (TNF Denali). Under that I'll wear a heavy baselayer wicking crewneck. This is my attiore while hiking. Whne we are stopped, or at camp, I'll throw on a down coat to stay warm, with my goretex jacket over that if it's windy.

Repeat steps for legs.

You'll also need a good warm fleece hat, balacava, and neck gaiter.

I normally wear liner gloves, under fleece gloves, under a gortex shell glove.

Feet - Thick mountaineering weight socks & liner. Crampon compatible boots. I always put those toe warmers in my boots at all times.

Manuka, ID Bob, Pete, Gremlin, Mtn Steve, Pennsy and Adventurist, will have better advice for ya, they do this much more often than yours truely.”

“I used my 0 degree down, inside my +20 degree synthetic, and was toasty warm in -20 degree weather. But we did use sleds, which helped with the weight/bulk.”

“Buddha Bear: Sleds are great! I haul mine with my winter camping class, and figure its not only easier than carrying my gear on my back, but its a rescue option in case I need to haul someone out. I almost had to use it for rescue a few years ago on a winter trip.

Buddha's clothing advice sounds right on.”

“yeah, I don't think I can afford a $600 sleeping bag right now.

I really don't think I will have my sh#t together this year. Next year yeah, but not this year.”

“Gemini, I bought a book from Latta Outdoors (plug for Matt, plug for Matt) called Wilderness Mountaineering by Phil Powers He writes for NOLS. The book is really informative, and allowed me to attain a general understanding of the skills I'd need to to this stuff. Because of it, I was able to come up with a skills gameplan over a few years to gain the knowledge/experience I'll need so I won't kill myself.”

“And Buddha is far too modest. FYAO was probably as cold as it gets in the real world. Like you, I am a big G-Tex fan. Check out sierratradingpost.com and campmor.com for deals, also Cabela's.

I don't wear any insulated outer clothing - strictly shells and layers. As for overpants, the Campmor High Peaks Pinnacle Bib are what I use. I guess they are being discontinued because they're on special at US79,98$ (page 22 of the current catalogue). The important thing is that they have full side zips. Their quality is excellent. I wear light polypro tights and when I stop I put on 200 weight fleece trousers that I bought from Sears and had a local seamstress sew in full length velcro on the outside seam. With a little effort I can put on the fleece without taking off my boots or overpants.

Cabelas (cabelas.com) has a 300 weight hooded fleece jacket with full front zip for US49,95$. Along with a polypro turtleneck, this would be all you'd need under the G-Tex parka.

The rest is just as Buddha and Manuka describe. I have only had plastic boots for two years now and always used my heavyweight leather mountain boots before. I wouldn't go back, but I could if I had to. I have never used toe warmers.

As Manuka points out, the important thing is to do it. Getting in with a group is basically free education and you don't need as much gear, as the others will be equipped and will share.

As for sleeping bags - I prefer synthetics because I am cheap. My winter bag is the Slumberjack model 600 Expedition It is insulated with Quallofill (still the best synthetic for the money in my opinion) and rated to -30°F(US149$). No bag will keep you warm unless you use it right. Full length VBL and THICK Thermarest, as well as fleece underwear in a tent or bivy sack. The bag must be clean.

If you're really going to start mountaineering, you need to practise your winter camping skills with knowledgeable friends as soon as possible.

Good luck,

Doug.”

“If you're really going to start mountaineering, you need to practise your winter camping skills with knowledgeable friends as soon as possible.

Good luck,

Doug."
gremlin
01:25:22 PM
09/16/03

That's how I started Uncle Gremlin.

BTW - Cap'n Bobo, Artex, SirPete and TomT are excellent sources of info. as well”

“Yup.”

“I just climbed Mt Rainer as my first true mountain experience. It was HARD but a good experience. The RMI guides are quite good. I saw it is a taste of mountaineering. Now i am going to take an actual class. Obviously, going on a 2 day guided climb does not teach you very many skills but at least it let me now that i enjoyed it enough to shell out cash for a longer class.”

“What's goin' on grems? It looks like talking about mountaineering gets you all excited?!?!

Yeah, it does me too! It's so hard for an east-coaster to stay in tune with technical high altitude climbing, the best thing you could probably do is to work out at the local rock gyms while plotting and schemeing for the next extended mileage trip. Thanks for the invite on the male menopause expedition, I'm certainly gonna consider going.

Congrats to TrailName (unless you're a troll!) Mt. Rainier is a respectable climb, newbie or veteran!

and thanks Gemini for bringing up this thread topic because it really helps to have other passionate folks to keep the mountaineering flame alive!!!

BuddhaBear, Fate would have it that I've been on a number of expeditions in Bolivia over the past ten years. In that time I've come to know the mountains, cities, guides and guide services, porters, and hotels pretty well. The two major Andean mountain ranges (Cordillera Real and Cordillera Occidental) afford high mountain experiences like you wouldn't believe and most trips are very close in proximity to La Paz. The exchange rate for the bolivian peso has been plummeting since God knows when and right now is getting close to 6 pesos to the dollar, this rate is absolutely insane. A 4 day expedition to summit a 18K mountain cost me a total of less than $400 for guides, porters, transportation to and from, tips, and even a pack of llamas to help carry our gear!

Totally insane!”

“Dude, could I make that a 2 week trip? Also, did you see any Incan ruins? I'm definately up for Incan ruins, especially after reading "Fingerprints of the Gods". I have even thought about hooking up with Roseymonster out there this spring.

Ya gotta come to UGMMT!”

“Mr BuddhaBear,

It's a long story, but I'll get into it alittle. My buddy who turned me on to mountain climbing in Bolivia is in his late 50s and has decided to give up climbing, so instead he has become obsessed with looking for lost Incan ruins! My last trip in 2001 we traveled down to the high mountain forests (6000 feet) and located some very old villages with ruins (See my webshots bolivia albums). That was really cool, but my passion is still to clilmb while I'm still able to. This turns out to be a great opportunity however, because if you wanted to go, you have you're choice of looking for Incan ruins or climbing, or both! Two weeks is a very, very good idea for this kind of trip because one week is barely enough time with altitude acclimatization and all.”

“You must read Fingerprints of the Gods.

What were the villages like? Damn! I gotta get down there!”

“Thanks BB, I'm gonna order that book. Tiahuanacu is only a few hours drive from La Paz and so is Lake Titicaca. You'd have to fly over to Peru to see Macchu Picchu. I always wanted to travel to the famed Bolivian city of Tarbuco, where they have the ritual "Tinku". You may have seen this on Nat'l Geo. Every year, Indians gather in Tarabuco, they get totally drunk and then they have fights where they beat the snot out of each other. It is considered "honorable" to get all bloodied up. Even women get into the act! Come to think of it, this sounds like that little incident that got you arrested..... no, never mind!!!

Dude, I'm gettin' Bolivitis!!!!”

“I'm in! Guys, we gotta talk.”

“I'm all ears gremlin. Talk away.”

“We'ree going to have to talk about serious stuff on UGMMT.”

“I'm looking seriously at that trip Grems. It shouldn't be too much of a problem to get away from the family and work is typically shut down that week.

How's about that Thanksgiving trip to the Santanonis?”

“so, now you all planing a trip huh?? okay! That's fine! Just rub it in!”

“Hey, this is YOUR thread, Gem! I was talking about the UGMMT - Uncle gremlin male menopause trip earlier and gremlin put an idea out there on another thread about a Thanksgiving day hike in the Adirondacks, would you like to come along?

I was hoping you would reply to my posts regarding the Bolivia trip, it's very do-able if you're interested...”

“Captn Sir, Boliva would cost me a fortune!

I don't even have the gear yet! Probably will have to spend at least $800 or more for the gear. I am getting it done slowly.

I have too many gear questions I am not going to bother anyone with. I think I can figure it out, lots of research and stuff!

First I have to get in shape, then I have to buy gear.”

“Gemini, "the time has come the" walrus said (L. Carroll)...

to put up, or shut up (yes I am joking here sensitive folks).

Invites on not 1, but 2 mountaineering trips, and only 1 of them requires a sex change (it does say 'MALE menopause')

enough!, enough!, I say of these wimpy whining excuses about no money, or maybe it will be cold (yep mountains do get cold), where is your Teutonic fortitude when there are hills to climb, and frozen icicles of breath to stalatite from the tip of your nose.

By the time you have purchased all your goretex there will be something better and you will need that before you can go, there will always be really excellent valid reasons why you can't go now, but maybe next year...

Next year is the rocking chair, and regrets, why? why? why?

Gotta make up your mind and just GO, GO, GO.”

“alright, alright, alright!! I need at least the basics though. I need so much!! I can get away without the jacket because mine is maybe not goretex but pretty good. Crampons, Ice axe, snowshoes... stuff I need for sure. See!!!

Anyway, that's the first thing I will check into, the crampons, ice axe and the snow shoes.

I am not willing to perform a sex change or share pee bottles with any of you. Sorry, we are not that close. ;)”

“okay, F it. I have another gear question...

I am looking at those plastic boots. First they cost a fortune, second they look uncomfortable.

Is it worth it?
How do they feel?
Any recomendations??”

“Before the pee bottle you need Freshette then you can 'hang' with the guys, write your name in the snow! whatever.



If you are seriously into mountaineering, you will eventually be in the position where others on the rope will have to politely look the other way while you do your business, as there are time on a mountain where you cannot be off the rope.

BTW, I did provide my daughter with a freshette system before we went on our Winter trip up Ruapehu (9k ft) because it is a lot more discrete, and a lot warmer than dropping the trou.”

“Plastic boots, rent them.
They are comfortable, but not comfortable to walk in as they are rigid and have no flex. There are 2 types, those with a flatter sole 'extreme' mountaineering which are geared more for verticle ice climbing
NOT WHAT YOU WANT,
and ones with a slight rocker in the sole to help with walking.
They cost $350 and up, this is why you rent. If you decide that this what you like to do a lot of, haunt REI-outlet and Sierratrading post after new year for xmas returns and in late spring-end of season, for sales. You can get deals for $100-$150 trouble is getting your size, they tend to run small and you need to get a size larger than normal particularly for European made boots. Rent give the opportunity to try before you buy.

Crampons must fit the boots you have, you don't have em, so rent the crampons at the same place as you get the boots. If you ever buy boots, think about crampons to fit.
Again 2 types, get general mountaineering rather than verticle ice crampons for reasons of flex. Verticals will snap within a couple of miles walking.

Snowshoes...rent them.

Ice axe, buy it, you life does depend on it and you do not want to risk the rental agency not noticing damage. Also not that expensive and the fit is to your height/ape index. Relatively cheap but goodies are Grivel 'Nepal', Grivel 'Parmir', and the US made Black Diamond 'Raven' all are around $70.”

“All of it, in fact.

Gem., this is your thread and you're more than welcome at Thanksgiving, too. When is American Thanksgiving, by the way? If someone will give me the date I'll post it on the 'Trips' page.”