Woodcraft/Primitive Skills Survey

“Was just wondering who has…

1) done any trips with an emphasis on wood craft and minimal gear?

2)Who here has an interest in it?

3)What is the level of minimalism that you feel comfortable in when heading into the woods?

4)Would being in a group change this level any?

5)What is the specific point of interest you have in wood craft?
A) edible plant identification
B) shelter building
C) fire building
D) primitive fishing
E) making the most from the least
F) other?”

“I thought this was about something else.


Nigal
5.
B,C,D,E”

“I did a wilderness survival trip with the BSA once...went in with a sleeping bag, 8x8 plastic liner, some line and our clothing. It down to freezing. we had to build shelters using our materials..or what was available..we paired up and we bent a sapling over to make a pole and wrapped our liner over and under like a tent...some others made leanto's, and others just wrapped in the liner and buried themselves in pinestraw..lol”

“I eat with my hands.”

“All of it sounds very interesting!”

“I eat with a spork.”

“Take a dremel with you out in the woods and you can carve all sorts of cool stuff.”

“LMAO Artex!”

“...no boat no lights no motorcar not a single luxury, like Robinson Caruso as primitive as can be...”

“I made a bow drill once and actually started a fire with it. It took a while but I was determined to do it.”

“1) done any trips with an emphasis on wood craft and minimal gear?

2)Who here has an interest in it?

3)What is the level of minimalism that you feel comfortable in when heading into the woods?

4)Would being in a group change this level any?

5)What is the specific point of interest you have in wood craft?
A) edible plant identification
B) shelter building
C) fire building
D) primitive fishing
E) making the most from the least
F) other?

1. yes
2. me
3. what levels are there?
4. yes
5. b & c”

“1. Me.
2. Me, I teach it to kids.
3. That depends on the season and where.
4. It depends on the skill level, age and my level of responsability to the group.

5. I have an interest in all of them but my strengths are in B, C and E.

Bowdrills are cool. I have one and a primative flint and steel set. Those are a lot of fun to use.”

“I dig edible plants. Have learned many and tried some. Most taste like dookie unless drenched in butter, but I know what I can eat, and where to get vitamin C, etc.

Haven't got too much interest in going miserable bare bones, but enjoy thinking about it, reading about it and feel pretty confident that I'd do okay if need be.”

“1. Me
2. Like HPM, I teach youth. I've been a Wilderness Survical MB counselor for quite awhile.
3.I'm comfortable 4 season, also OKPIK Certifed & teach how to build snowshelters
4. Depends upon the group make-up.
5.A) edible plant identification - I usually teach NOT to eat edible plants. Too easy to make a mistake & ingest something bad for you, you can survive for weeks without food, but can poison yourself in 10 minutes with a bad selection!
B) shelter building, teach this 4 season
C) fire building - teach this
D) primitive fishing - this is harder than most think, I teach but often have poor luck
E) making the most from the least
F) other?”

“definitely interested in edible plants to supplement my rations.”

“1) done any trips with an emphasis on wood craft and minimal gear? ---> NOT YET

2)Who here has an interest in it? ---> ME

3)What is the level of minimalism that you feel comfortable in when heading into the woods? ---> Huh?Levels?? As many levels I can handle I guess.

4)Would being in a group change this level any? --> heck yeah

5)What is the specific point of interest you have in wood craft?
A) edible plant identification
B) shelter building
C) fire building
D) primitive fishing
E) making the most from the least
F) other?
--->a, b, c, d, e”

“Yes, but a looooooong time ago. I can't believe I survived some of the stuff I/we did, but then Everest, McKinley, the South Pole et c. were done with almost unbelievably primitive gear. I must admit that I love modern gear (food, G-Tex et c.) and sometimes have trouble believing how easy things have become.”

“i was told by an instructor that if you are going to try to eat things in the wild..and are unsure of the plant life...to eat insects first, they are less likely to be harmful and better for you.”

“Note to self: Politely refuse opie's offers of "grub worm stew" at TC3.”

“Correct, Opie. Very few animals are poisonous, lots of plants are. Worms, anything that lives in the water, insects are all good food sources.

BUT, everyone I know also makes it a point to emphasize that you don't need food for a LOONNNG time, so, from a safety perspective, you're often better off eating nothing. Water is critical, food isn't.

Obviously we're talking about a situation where you're lost. If you WANT to eat plants, go for it.”

“Opie, wanna grab some "grub"

Waa waa waaaaa.”

“I make good stickmen.

But seriously, I think it'd be cool to learn more about all of that stuff.”

“Okpik?
Sweet, I've always wanted to do that class.”

“It is all fun and interesting. I don’t understand the term “woodcraft” being applied. What you are discussing sounds more like survival skills or “living off the land”. I try to always be prepared for that (it’s the only reason I carry a big scary knife) but would only do it in an emergency. That type of camping is high impact. I prefer to camp so that no can tell I have been there and wish others would too. I practice the skills in my backyard not in the wilderness.”

“If you ever get the chance, do it! I've gone thru just about all the High Adventure certification programs, teach some of them, and have to say, by far, OKPIK is my favorite. It is incredibly cool to head up to the Sierra when there's 20-30 feet of snow & camp for the weekend. First timers are always fun, they can't believe that you can be warm & cozy inside a quinzee!”

“"That type of camping is high impact. I prefer to camp so that no can tell I have been there and wish others would too."

Not always. It can be done with minimum impact. I'm talking skills that will get you through the night, not digging latriens and permanent lean tos.

Besides, I always burn my shelter down when leaving camp (Surviver Style)! (joke)”

“Just to clarify the level of confidence thing: How much are you willing to leave behind in favor of coming up with in the wild. Are you confident enough to not take a tent because you know how to make shelter? Are you ok with going stove less in favor of cooking over wood? That type of thing. And connected, would being in a group make you more comfortable or confident in trying to go without things or try things you would not normally do on a solo hike due to the safety in numbers factor or because you could learn from others more?”

“OK I can see no or low gear camping being low impact. Mostly it is the fire that I object to.

How primitive can you go? How about no gear and naked? I might try that once if the skiters are gone and it is not to cold.”

“If it is cold, I will go with.”

“Can I bring my big scary knife?”

“Sure, as long as you promise not to use it on me.”

“"Mostly it is the fire that I object to."

You must be asumming I'm talking about a bon fire. I'm talking about a cooking fire. Please check out my page concerning LNT cookfires and you may understand what I'm talking about:

http://www.mwestfall.addr.com/nigal/getting_serious_about_lnt_fires.htm

"How primitive can you go?"

It's not how primitive someone can go. I wanted to know what people's level of confidence is in their own abilities and would this level change if they were others.

"How about no gear and naked? I might try that once if the skiters are gone and it is not to cold."

This is the typical ignorant answer when the topic of primitive camping comes up. Try again.”

“Nigal – I am serious about trying it once. How do you know what you can do if you don’t push the limits? I would have a cache of gear near by just in case I turned out to be to wimpy.

I know about fire. Yes a cooking fire can be low impact but not less than my little stove. I guess one could eat the bugs raw. I’ll stick to the plants. On my last little trek the thimble berries were abundant.”

“How do you know what you can do if you don’t push the limits? I would have a cache of gear near by just in case I turned out to be to wimpy.

Bingo! Now we're getting somewhere. Now, would people be more likely to try things they wouldn't if, say, a trip organizer had a few basics in case someone needed it?

"I know about fire. Yes a cooking fire can be low impact but not less than my little stove."

Fire etiquette can be very subjective. Where are you at? What effect will a fire have on the area around you? If you never use a fire do you know you can start one and keep it going when you really need it? Where I go fires are not a problem as long as you follow comon sense. The method I have posted on my site is far and away less impacting than the guidelines set down by LNT Inc. itself. The fire leaves no trace at all.”

“There's nothing high impact about a fire if properly made and tended to, including the cleanup afterwards.
MtnGal I don't mean to sound harsh, but with comments about the fire, "big scary knives" and such, you make it sound like anyone who practices these skills is a neanderthal with no concern for the environment. It seems to me that back in the days before gas stoves, tents, etc., when you had no choice but to use fires, homemade shelters and the like, the wilderness was in better shape than it is now. I realize that changes in population and the outdoors as a hobby factor into that, but still, I see no problem with someone who wants to practice primitive camping.

When's the trip Nigal? Bring it south and I'll give it a shot. Points A-D interest me.”

“"When's the trip Nigal? Bring it south and I'll give it a shot. Points A-D interest me."

Not really sure yet. In the late spring maybe. Where? I don’t know that yet either. I'd like a wilderness area where camping is allowed anywhere. I wanted to get a feel for who would be seriously interested. I hesitate to post trips because I don’t want 20 people dog piling the trip in the expectation of it being a regular trip. No, I have no plans to check people’s packs and take stuff out! LOL! I do want people who are interested in the focus of the trip rather than just wanting to do a trip. I’d like a small group of interested people so I will probably run the risk of pissing some off and send out private invites.”

“I am in Idaho and the remains of fire I see often. These are probably not from Nigal type fires but they are disgusting. Fires are also prohibited during July and August most years. Stick, some wilderness areas were not in better shape before the use of stoves. In Idaho’s Sawtooth wilderness I have seen a marked improvement in the visual appearance since they enacted strict rules on the use of fire and started removing fire rings. Nigal I am sure wouldn’t use a fire ring like these but those old times did and without much care. And I am serious about my big scary knife. I do practice these skills but not in the wilderness. If it were a matter of survival I would build as big a fire as I needed, build shelter, use plant material for insulation and the rest but I can’t see doing it just for fun more that a very very infrequent test.”

“Well slap me silly. I need to read more carefully. I didn’t realize you were talking about an actual small group trip. I am a recluse and don’t do group trips anymore. I seek solitude with just me and my hubby. My fire, or is that no fire, preference is just that a preference. If you can burn with on trace go for it, but most people don’t take that much care and I find the stove less work. I am not some city fool that has never camped using a fire. I know how to minimize the impact. I just prefer not using one or being subjected to the aftermath of others using them.”

“1) done any trips with an emphasis on wood craft and minimal gear? no

2)have an interest in it? yes

3)level of minimalism that you feel comfortable in when heading into the woods? I don't do without a sleeping bag anymore, but I used to on mt rescue trips. It was not comfortable.

4)Would being in a group change this level any? You can have my sleeping bag when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers.

5)What is the specific point of interest you have in wood craft?
A) edible plant identification: I study this subject, but don't use it in the backcountry or recommend using it except for fun.
B) shelter building: I teach snow shelter building, and emergency shelters
C) fire building: I know about primitive firestarting but don't use it. Its interesting though.
D) primitive fishing: I've caught fish by hand, and with a simple hook and line. I prefer fly fishing.”

“Sounds to me like you're both right. Different enviroments can handle different stress'.
Fire / shelter building are very different matters in the Sierra above 10,000 feet vs. in a Ohio hardwood forest.

That being said, Nigal, the skills you're talking about, taught from hardwood forest percpective, wouldn't be of much use to me in the Sierra. But I would like to be included in the discussion of your upcoming trip. Maybe I could learn something.”

“My skills are rusty, but I once served as "scoutcraft" director at a BSA summer camp, teaching all manner of woodcraft/basic survival skills (fresh frog legs are tasty and can actually be easier to round up than catching fish). Never met an adolescent boy who didn't enjoy learning new ways to start fires.

Mtn gal's adherence to the BFK (big f-ing knife) philosophy recalls my impassioned advocacy of a good knife long ago on a TT thread about what were the essential items to carry in the back country. While my skills may be rusty, I think I could provide for myself in an emergency situation if I had my wits about me and a trustworthy, solid knife.

I wish I could chip out a flint knife or hammer out a steel blade as fast as in The Hunted, but I don't usually hike with a Hollywood F-X crew in tow. However, I wouldn't mind learning how to flake flint blades. Based on the waste piles and rejects left by natives, it's a pastime that will eat up those long hours in your improvised camp waiting for the rescuers to find you.”

“Every day hike or trip into the woods to hunt I've done is done with this in mind, since those are time when a situation could arise. Never purposely gone overnighting to test primitive skills.

I've been interested in the subject ever since I discovered my dad's WWII Navy survival manual and his trench/combat knife in the basement as a kid.

Level of minimalism? Proper clothes for season, fire-starting materials (I carry matches/lighter, but I have started a fire with flint and steel in a practice session), good fixed-blade knife, poncho might be a starting point.

A group of like-minded folks would be great; being stranded with unwilling average Americans would suck.

Yes to A through E.”

“Woodcraft or woods lore was the term used to describe camping and outdoor living for several hundred years. Lately what was called woodcraft has been re-termed as survival skills by a society that by and large no longer has those skills or really any need to know those skills. Camping and hiking in my opinion has become more of a high tech extended picnic that requires very little woodcraft knowledge (if any at all) in order to carry out a successful and enjoyable trip. That being said, I personally am a huge fan of my little high tech extended picnics.

Nigal your best bet for a trip like that would be in a national forest. They usually have the most accomodating rules regarding fires and dispersed campsites.

Frankly I have a hard time finding places that allow me the freedom to teach woodcraft to Scouts. State parks in Florida have banned collecting wood for fires and many areas restrict where one can camp. Scout camps are so heavily used that I am loathe to inflict any more impact on them. Ocala and Osceola national forests are my only real viable options to teach old school woodcraft. I really am only able to do such trips maybe once a year or every two years.

Dispite popular misconception it is very possible to use all these old skills and still be true to the precepts of leave no trace. I personally believe that a person is unskilled in woodcraft untill they can practice those skills and leave the area they were in without a trace of their passing.

I've done trips with scouts where we brought all the usual stuff and left it in the gear trailer. If anyone exceeded their comfort or safety level they would simply go get their gear and opt out of the excercise.”

“Oh, I'd definately be interested in a trip like this. Either to learn or teach.”

“"Mtn gal's adherence to the BFK (big f-ing knife) philosophy recalls my impassioned advocacy of a good knife long ago on a TT thread about what were the essential items to carry in the back country."

Yes, I believe I was on the other end of that deabte. I didn't call you an a-hole or anything bad did I? LOL! I will conceed that my little Victorinox Classic wouild not be a good knife for a trip like this. I have a Boker knife with 4" blade, saw and skinning blade (worthless) that is a lockback I think would work better.

I laughed my a$$ off when that due in the hunted churned out a perfectl, razor sharp blade in minutes using a campfire forge and a rock. Haha!”

“Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I agree with you HPM. I hate calling it "survival skills" because it congers up the snake eater, knuckle dragging, Rambo wanna-be image and people react badly to it.”

“Oh boy! I would be very excited to be part of a trip like this. I just started reading the Last American Man, a biography of Eustace Conway, the founder of Turtle Island. So far I very much recommend it as a read for those interested in primitive wilderness experiences.

Though I am sure there are others that share his practices, skills, and philosophies, I have never met someone like that.

I am not looking to pick up, skin, and cook every road kill I come across, but I would value expanding my knowledge of primitive skills and woodcraft as much as reasonably possible.”

“I wish I could chip out a flint knife or hammer out a steel blade as fast as in The Hunted,
pekka
08:14:57 PM
09/16/03

Man what a coincidence. I rented that flick tonight with no thought of this thread (Yes, it's true, I don't go around with TT on the brain) but I immediately thought of this thread when I started seeing some of the tracking and camo techniques.”

“1) done any trips with an emphasis on wood craft and minimal gear?

I did this lots when I was a teenager.

2)Who here has an interest in it?

Me!Me!Me!

3)What is the level of minimalism that you feel comfortable in when heading into the woods?

I'm comfortable providing my own shelter and staying alive. Not really so comfortable finding food as I'd like.

4)Would being in a group change this level any?

I think I've learned something from every person in every group I've ever hiked with.

5)What is the specific point of interest you have in wood craft?
A) edible plant identification
B) shelter building
C) fire building
D) primitive fishing
E) making the most from the least
F) other?"

All of the above.”

“A swiss army does fine as long as it is sharp and you don't try to pry with it or expect to down a big tree.”