Divorce Sucks

“pink, just so you know you don't get to chose a day to have the papers served. Once you file with your lawyer it is handed over to the local sheriff's dept to deliver them to the other person or to their lawyer if they have one. So it might not have been his fault if the papers were served on Valentine's Day.
Plus what differnce does it make if he filed with his lawyer on Valentine's day. Both knew the marriage was in trouble before then. don't make it out to be a happy, loving day when it wasn't to start with.”
Ewker
12:19:35 PM
10/27/04


Ewk...
Yes, I am and was aware that my friend had troubles with her marriage, but her ex led her to believe that there was still hope and that they were healing their old wounds. In fact I have a photo that I took when they came to visit me and Thinkbubelz only 2 weeks before he filed and they both looked happy, obviously there were still strains, but we didn't see a couple that looked like they were on the verge of divorce. (Trust me, we had seen that at various times in their relationship--We had been friends as couples for 10 years.) In fact she looked extremely happy that things were getting better... so, when she found out he had filed, and when he told her on Valentine's day, it came as quite a shock.

It is one thing for a person to be unhappy and vocal about it before filing. I think it is a total betrayal when a person "pretends" to be happy and leads their spouse to believe that they CAN heal their differences and THEN lowers the boom.

Also, he told her that he decided to file on Valentine's day on purpose because he wanted to ruin all of her future Valentine's Days.

********************

Ewk-- like I posted before, I am NOT condemning all men in divorces! There are plenty of men out there who aren't the scapegoat. However, in this case, our former friend was so nasty to my friend that even my hubby, Thinkbubelz can't stand his actions. Thinkbubelz KNOWS what it's like to be a child of divorce--he was one himself....”

“Ewker - I still say the kids are adults, they'll figure it all out. What're you gonna do, let her yank you around the rest of your life? people are gonna do what they're gonna do, you can't control others.”

“pink, you would be suprised how many couples play out the we are happy in our marriage when their not.

twiggy, your right they are adults and they do what they want and learn as they get older. No she isn't going to yank me around.
I just think that you should let the other parent know when one of your kids go to the hospital or ER. Is that wrong?”

“twiggy, are we up to 100 miles a day now ;)”

“I think it is all about respect here.....I know my ex would want to know if I took one of my adult kids to the hospital and I would have called him right away....and I know he would call me right away too......

Yes...whether you like it or not you are TIED to each other in a sense....until the day you die....those children belong to BOTH....and there is NOTHING worse than playing games.....

It is respect......people will show you what they are truely made of......I see Ewkers point and agree......thank goodness my ex would never do that to me.......”

“There is something wrong with this picture. Ewker just went through a divorce, which is painful, then his son is in the hospital and his wife doesn't call him, and he is getting picked on? For what?

As the adult and parent, your wife should have called, unless she told your daughter to call, because she did not want to speak with you, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Ewker's son cannot be expected to call his dad if he feels he is fine and doesn't want to worry his dad, but Ewker should definitely be told by somebody.

His wife should be glad that her husband still takes an interest in his children. I have seen enough men in my lifetime that turn their backs on their kids after they get divorced.”

“I agree!!!......one thing I do know is my ex loves his children...and is concerned about them.......even as adults......”

“she has no responsibility to him at all anymore, even though the share kids. would it have been respectful to make sure that he knew? yes, if the situation looked life threatening or the son wouldn't be able to call him on his own sometime in the near future. if it wasn't that serious, i don't think it is disrespectful not to call. the kids are adults, they can tell who they want, what they want.

and i'm not picking on ewker, just stating my opinion in the matter which happens to differ from his.”

“Ewk,

My friend was genuinely happy (in fact, she seemed happier than she had been in a long time) when she visited me. Obviously, her ex was play-acting.... For someone (her ex) whom she considered to be her best friend at the time, she was shocked that he decided to give her the illusion that he was trying to patch things up, when clearly (hindsight is 20/20) he didn't want to continue with the marriage.

That was the ultimate act of anger and hate and betrayal to her, IMHO.... Yes, they both had many issues with each other. However, she had been up front with him about her feelings about wanting a divorce...she could have left him years ago, but she thought that they had decided that to try to work things out--for the sake of the children (she apparently thought WRONG).... He, on the other hand, made her feel like they could work things out and then slammed her feelings into the ground. If that isn't spiteful and mean, I don't know what else you could call it!

In the meantime, his divorce "antics" and "tactics" towards my friend AND her children have made me lose any respect Thinkbubelz and I had for him....

AND, lest you lump her into the category of a "money-grubbing gold digger", in this case, you could not be more wrong... She came to the marriage with the house and land, AND was the primary caretaker of the children AND the primary bread winner.... Unfortunately for him, his "sugar mommy" has vanished and now he's mad because HE has to help pay for his children!

*******************************

On the issue of your son, I understand feeling "left out", but as others pointed out, he IS an adult after all.... Yes, it would have been courtesy if your ex would have called you, but no, it isn't necessarily her duty to do so.

The divorce is obviously still fresh in both of your minds and there's obviously still a lot of pain between the 2 of you.

Perhaps your ex told your daughter in hopes that the news would travel to you, and so that she could avoid talking to you directly? We are all just making speculations....

It seems to me like you should have a talk with your son & daughter about notifying you if something like this happens again. It could be that he didn't want to worry you and thought 'everything's under control'....

My question to you--Although you are no longer married to your ex, if something were to happen to her, would you want to know? AFter all, this is the mother to your children and you'll be forever linked to her through them....

Hopefully, time will heal the "wounds" in your heart!”

“Yes, it would have been courtesy if your ex would have called you, but no, it isn't necessarily her duty to do so.


I disagree.....he is the dad...he should be notified.......all should be put aside when it comes to the kids.....even adult kids.....”

“I'm a gonna chime in here.

My ex has physical custody of the kids, since shortly after the divorce. Legally, we share custody. I only have one minor child left, the rest (4) are adults. Whenever one of my kids heads to the ER or doctor, or court (yes, court), I never hear about it. This is clearly spelled out in the divorce papers, that we are to keep each other informed of these events and change in address, etc.... Yes, there is legal requirement for this, as well as a moral responsibility. Just try to get it enforced.... reality will kick in soon enough. No need stressing about what you can't change. I'll eventually hear about it somewhere, somehow.

I never get acknowledgement about birthday cards, letters, gifts, anything from them. I chatted with my ex about how we used to teach the kids to say thank you and all that stuff. Her response: She can't make them say thank you, besides, she called DHS and they said that it is not a rule, so she doesn't have to require them to say thanx. I responded that she could require it of them, but it's up to her how she handles the kids, and if that's what she wants to teach them, well....... It is so very sad, to me, that this is how my children are being taught to respond to me.

Now before any of you say go back to court and gain sole custody and do away with that kind of garbage, think about it. The reality of my prevailing would be, what.... I'm going with : squat.

Okay, remember now, think: Suppose we go back to court. First, it'll get real ugly, for me, and I gaurentee it'll get real ugly for her-LOL, but it'll also get really, really ugly for my kids, and will no doubt further polarize them. Then it'll be my word against hers (oh yeah, my kids will likely keep quiet, or speak very sympathetically for their mother), about how one parent is teaching the kids to dis the other parent. Do you know how many times the judges have heard this one, and have guilded themselves against it. Basically, it is a non issue with them.

This is the reality of things here, not right or wrong, just the reality.....

Okay now, let's just suppose that I can prove she is causing the kids to dis me, and the judge agrees. What law is being broken here? At best, maybe a contempt citation against my ex. How does this really show that she is legally unfit to raise these children? Also, at the age of my children, the courts very much take into account the child's choice of which parent to live with.

As far as who the kids live with, it started with me. I was overbearing in their eyes, I guess because I expected them to make their beds and brush their teeth, do their homework, etc....Get out from in front of that TV until you get it done. I mean I was "on their case". Granted it was not an easy time for any of us. They were told by both of us that they could with her, or with me. If they change their mind, be sure. There would be no moving back and forth every time there was an argument, but they could change their mind. They all (3 minor children at that time) ended up back with her. And sure enough, it was all down hill from there.

I am certain that my ex is so lenient with them for 2 reasons: First, she just can't do much better ( I lived with her for some 21 years, and I know this woman), and second, it is a sure way to wound me.

Now I could go back to court, mud will fly, both ways, the kids will get more polarized and they are soon or already are adults and it will all be moot by the time the mud stops flying. I hear so many say I will fight for my children, I will move heaven and earth for them, I will never give up for them......Jeez... take a pill. Let life normalize a little for them. It will never be what you intended for them. If it was you wouldn't haven't gotten divorced. Sure it sucks, but what can you realistically do?

Okay, I am getting down off this rather sizable wooden crate full of soap now.....”

“He was notified...

I agree, everything should be put aside when it comes to the kids...never said I didn't...been there, done that, did it.

But ya know, it takes TWO...I hear lots of crabbing about "she didn't tell me" or "she only calls when something is wrong" well how often do you fathers call? How often do you call just to see how your child is doing? You don't have to talk with the X. Do you ever just call to touch base?

So if my X got on hear crabbing about me not notifying him, I'd be crucified.
(not that I would care, by the way)
But if you read my above post, I have no way to contact him. I might be able to find one of his sisters, but that's wrong too.

So - do all you absentee fathers leave your hiking/kayaking/whatever itineraries with your X's so they know where you are? Does she have your home phone, work phone, cell phone, pager numbers? What about when you are on a sleepover date? Where were you when your children were being born? How do you expect to behave at your children's graduations, weddings, other life events where you are sure to see the X, and her SO. When you were together, were you there for every well child visit, emergency room visit, or cold?
LOL...

Hey, life happens - we all can't be there for every second of it.”

“monkeyboy, I think we were typing at the same time, my post was not directed at you - we've talked about your situation.”

“I have a friend who's X of 25 years managed to sway their kids to his interests and is now working on the grandkids.
If she takes the kid (age 7) hiking and he goes home excited about it, he doubles his efforts to take the kid out on the ATV and snowmobile. It's amazing how childish people can be.”

“Indiana John, are there such things as mediators in the midwest? I don't think a mudslinging courtroom fight is the way to remain "friends" after the divorce. From the sounds of it SHE will want plenty of time away from your daughter.”

“Bunny boiler... you'll always be Twigeater to me, I understand what you wrote was not directed at me, and yes, we were typing at the same time.

I guess what I was trying to illustrate was that life goes on, make the best of it. There are things you can not control or change or affect for the better. It takes a lot to learn what those things are. And even more to accept that you can't do a thing about it. But life goes on, live it!”

“Everyone has different situations......and I hope I didn't upset anyone.....I think it is selfish, immatuture, and disrespectful not to contact ex if you can, just my opinion.....you know what they say about opinions.....I guess I just have two ( yes two) pretty good ex's...my kids are grown now....and I KNOW if something happens to one of my kids, my exhusbands will contact me...and vise versa....and I am thankful....”

“monkeyboy, I'm only bunny boiler until Sunday at midnight! LOL...

divinity - I doubt anyone disagrees with what you said - but Ewker WAS CONTACTED, just not by his X. Apparently, Ewker's daughter "gets it" which is why she asked mom if she called dad...and mom's "no" answer let daughter know she needed to call dad.
(BTW-I don't think you're situation with your X's is unique, but rather the norm)

If I had my X's contact info, I'd call him about serious stuff (like a stay in the hospital, but not just a trip to the ER) but he has to take some responsibility - like giving me his damn phone number... dontcha think?
(PS - my son is 25 - prior to age 18, I always had contact info, because I insisted)

LOL...I'm not upset I dunno about anyone else...I just think that sometimes we expect things to be perfect and they are not, and never will be, and that's the way it is.

lips, no one is picking on Ewker because he cares about his children, read the rest of the thread.

AutumnalEquinox, mediation might be great if you can talk. I know mine left me ready to scream. I think the only difference between court and mediation is that in mediation you are slinging mud directly at each other, in court the lawyers do it. though it's required in most states.”

“My ex-boyfriend's wife took their kids and went to Canada to live without telling him and remarried.

She was stupid, because she did him a big favor by leaving him with no responsibility for the kids, and I think that was fine with him, but the kids didn't know, so he got off easy. The one girl he had did contact him to say they were in Canada eventually.

He never did contact the boys. The girl was smart, stayed in touch with her dad, and got the winfall of all his extra cash.”

“lips that's just stupid...and I'm not talking about her...

No matter what kids say or do, they want to at least know both of their natural parents. I really doubt the girl stayed in contact with her dad for his $$.
I couldn't date a man who didn't contact his kids. It speaks volumes about him....”

“geesh, I am gone for the evening and this erupts into a debate.

Some agree with me others don't. What matters is what I think and how I deal with it here. I do know that no matter how much I can't stand her I would call her if something happened to one of the kids.

I understand what most are saying about it because of the age of my kids. But would your opinion be the same if they were 5-6 yrs old?

To each his own and there way of thinking. I am not mad or angry at anyone for expressing their opinion. Heck I do it most of the time myself even though there are times I type something up then delete it...lol

IJ, I hope you never have to go through something like that. I wish you the best and good luck with your life. Do what you have to do to be with your kids.”

“what? I thought it was already a debate?

it's the freakin' moon Ewker!”

“what moon?? it is hidden here by the clouds”

“bunny, I guess I had that coming since I didn't give any situations to back up what I was saying. On the internet, you can say something without realizing people will not take you at your word, and that you need to say why a situation is the way it is. You could have taken me at my word, but I will back it up:

His daughter was about 20 or so when she said she was coming to visit him from Canada. She proceeded to ask for money and take his car and disappear into the city to stay at a friend's house as soon as she arrived. When he called the friend's house to warn her about alternate side of the street parking, she was not there and the person had no idea she was in the U.S. or visiting her. He never mentioned this to her. Obviously her plans were to come and use his car and visit someone.

Any additional visits were spent staying up late drinking with me and telling me how he sucked as a father and a husband. Her dad was sleeping for work the next day as we chatted. I didn't tell him what she said. I don't know why she confided in me, though I am very trustworthy if told anything that someone doesn't want repeated. I wasn't upset for him, because it sounded like he did suck as a father and a husband, but I did think that she should not accept gifts or ask for them or items since she was still angry and did not like him.

He was a carpenter, and she asked him to come up to Canada and make her a closet. I guess it was her cue for him to send funds. He didn't get the hint and instead, he went up there, but chose to buy her one from Ikea and put it together.”

“Then she got married, and did not invite him or tell him until after the wedding, but came up with her new husband to stay with him and collect her wedding gift, because she must have known he was mad, because he didn't send one.”

“yeah”

“Wow, we're having fun now. 99 posts! Thanks again for all the support. I'm not even going to get in the middle of the restof that.

Autumn, i considered mediation since we're getting along now, but she is the type that can turn on a dime and become very irrational. the problem with mediation is that its not legally binding. If she goes off the deep end a couple years down the road, we'll be back in the same boat and have to pay lawyers again.”

“Here in Maine mediation is required with the hope that court can be avoided. The agreement is as legally binding as one made in court. If you have kids, you can haul each other back to court as many times over the next 18 years as you want.

I agree Ewker, you need to do what's right for you - me too!

lips - it sounds like that girl was heavily influenced by her mom...since the mom took off like that, didn't encourage the kids to see the dad, but told them the dad owed them...since the dad didn't try to see the kids, her points were valid in their mind.”

“just to clear things up a little. i do think the other parent deserves the respect of a phone call, even with adult children. i don't think an ex has any obligation to do that where adult children are concerned.

they are two different things.”

“ditto what baume said...”

“I agree with baume, that's essentially what I meant in my post....”

“bunny, I think my ex-boyfriends daughter saw a lot of stuff too, along with her mom telling her things since they divorced when the kids were in their teens.

It always sticks in my mind when his daughter told me how her dad went to Florida with his friend on vacation and left the family for Christmas.

I think it's hard for a women to have her kids see the dad and look up to him, and love him, when she knows he's a creep. Let's say the dad is late with a child support payment, you still have to smile and send the child off with him for the day.”

“My wife is here now moving her stuff to her new apartment.

She wanted me to follow her around while she said, "do you want this, or this" I finally told her to take whatever she wants. (We have the big stuff in writing already.) I'm not going to stand around and bicker about the little crap. It's just stuff.”

“Awe, that's a shame you are breaking up with your wife, even if it's for the best. The whole thing is so painful.

I would keep my eye on keeping some of the smaller stuff that may add up if it's things you have to buy again, but I understand what you are saying.

Good luck!”

“IJ, lipstick hiker is right. I let my ex have a lot of the small stuff I didn't think I would need. That was a mistake. I ended up having to replace quite a few items and it gets expensive. Watch what she takes or compromise on the items and split it evenly.

Also make sure any bills that she has agreed to keep paying is put in her name and your name is removed or you will get stuck with it later on. I found that one out the hard way.

also cancel any credit cards that has both of your names on it. If either of you still want that credit card open up your own account.”

“I am like WTF is going on with my kids???? I finally hear from my middle son, aged 20. I had called my ex asking for info on him and she didn't have any. This was a couple months ago. Today, when I called to arrange to see the kids, my middle son answers the phone. Apparently, he has been living there for the last while. He had checked himself into a psych ward for a couple months and didn't bother to call anyone til he got out. Every one was worried about him, and relieved when he showed up on his mother's doorstep. No one saw fit to drop me a line.

Then, I hear about my youngest son, 19. He held the best promise, by far of all my kids. He had been working at the same job for 3 years plus straight and received several promotions. My oldest son drops a bombshell on me. Seems my youngest son was caught abusing a substance at work a couple times, and fired. While under the influence of another substance, he totaled his car with 2 other passengers in it. Every one was banged up, but okay. I went to see his car. It is crumpled at the salvage yard, with pieces stacked on it's roof. ugh..... In the week since this transpired, he has quit all sunstances and is attempting to get his job back. Credit his manager, who recognizes a good employee. He told him to join AA first and show a track record of attendance!

It's amazing what a blabbermouth son will fill you in on if you take him and his siblings and kids to Pizza Hut for an hour and a half. I am glad he fills me in, but I am saddened to hear of the bad news. I have offered the kids repeatedly to live with me, and to their mother, when she complains that if I think I can do better..... Thing is, they are adults now, and she practically enables them, supports them, etc....

It's like I always say about parenting. The first decision you have to make in the way of parenting is choosing the other parent. Is the other parent one who shares the same ideals as you do, and has the same intentions for the kids? Or is the other poarent someone you got pregnant with and by default chose the other parent in a night of passion?

Hind sight is 20/20 eh.......”

“monkeyboy, as much as I have to say it you last sentence hit home with me :(”

“monkeyboy, I don't mean to pass judgement or tell you what to do, but an idea would be to call them more often.

My mom went to the hospital, and my sister and brother did not call me, but I call often enough that I found out the same day when she didn't answer her phone, and I went to see her only to find out that she needed a bedpan and no one was helping her even though my brother and sister were there and thought they had things under control.”

“You know why divorces cost so much?

They're worth it.”

“LOL Pinworm, I gotta agree with you there. Seriously, the worst thing I ever went through was a divorce. It set me up for one of the best things in my life however.

Skeetah Bait, my wife, is one the kindest, most caring people this world will ever know. (And she is able to put up with me!!!LOL) Together, we share a great life, and live this life like it is the only we have, and are just lovin life. We tackle many adventures, and look forward to new ones.

My first marriage wasn't a real good one. It wasn't terribly bad, but it wasn't always fun either. When she left me for a guy at work, I was crushed, couldn't sleep, lost weight, spent a lot of time crying, it was awful. Once I found out about the other guy, my resolve kicked in and I manned up and got out with what I could get (I basically made out like a woman in court, really good) and started a new life.

This time around (I actually had a chance to do it all over again!!!), I was gonna find me a real good woman, one with character, and compassion. I dated often after the divorce, never getting physically intimate with any of them. (A couple were physically dragging me to their bed, and I turned them down. That wouldn't have happened at age 18) I would discuss ideals and personal convictions with these ladies. Some told straight up that they didn't want to get involved with a man with minor children. I appreciated their honesty. At age 40, questions you would never ask at age 18 are so much easier to ask.

I got asked some tough questions also, which I answered honestly. In fact, I figured I'd never see Skeetah Bait again after one question, but she appreciated my honesty and we have found a very wonderful thing together.

So I have to agree, that divorce was well worth it!”

“You know, nowadays, SB and I are remembering what it was like when we were younger. We did not have much to do with our parents when we became adults. We have our kids doing the same thing to us, that we did to our parents. We have actually apologized to our parents and lament the fact that our kids are now doing it to us. We don't hold it against the kids, yet are saddened. It is always us who calls them. We remind each other that we are the parents, and the more mature adults. It is always us who makes the first move in contacting each other, and probably will be so for the next many years. (Of course, when they want some money, it is they who contact us, and right away also).

We often call the kids, and they are sleeping at all hours of the day, or are "busy, can I call you back", and never do, or they aren't there. We invite them on outings and dinners and what have you often, and only occasionally do they accept(Their interests are different, obviously), and on our dime, by the way. The number of times we have made arrangements to visit and they aren't there is surprising.

Of course, as they become adults, we back off a bit, tending not to guide so much as be there, letting them find their own way in life. At that age, I would have very much resented a guiding influence and refered to it as a control freak, and I suspect they would feel the same also.

It is a tough transition to make. Most of thier minor lives, you are a guiding influence to your children, either by your actions or lack ther of. You also develope a bond. As they enter their later teen years, it is unfortunate that resentment developes, manifested by rebellion. And at age 18 children are somewhat quick to inform their parents that they are free adults now, free to do what they want, and for parents to back off.

This in no way dimishes the love we have for our children, or our longing to hear from them on occasion. We want to hear from our children, without being intrusive into their lives. They want to find their own way, and we are letting them, but we are also there for them, cringing for them when it goes bad, and rejoicing for them when it goes good.”

“monkeyboy, I think this song sums up what you are trying to say.

Cats in the Cradle by Harry Chapin

My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkinfore I knew it, and as he grew He'd say I'm gonna be like you dad
You know I'm gonna be like you
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon Little boy blue and the man on the moon When you comin home dad?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son You know we'll have a good time then

My son turned ten just the other day
He said, Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
Can you teach me to throw, I said Not today
I got a lot to do, he said, That's ok
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed And said, I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

Well, he came home from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while?
He shook his head and said with a smile
What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please?

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, I'd like to see you if you don't mind
He said, I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you

And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then”

“monkeyboy, I can understand if your kids don't want to do certain things with you, but I don't understand them not being home when you agreed on a time that you would visit. Also, them not getting back to you is not good.

Sometimes this may mean they are too out of it to see you, meaning drinking or drugs. I would be very angry if my child wasn't home when I was supposed to visit and didn't even call to say they wouldn't be there. That isn't a sign of them trying to be an adult, that's being rude and undependable. Those aren't positive adult traits.

As a parent, I think you still have a right to know what's going on just incase drugs or drinking is involved so you can do an intervention or try to guide them in some way for counseling.”

“I've felt very alive these last few days. Alive like I haven't felt in years. Maybe I'm going to like this being single stuff.

....or maybe this is just a phase in the whole way my psyche is dealing with the issue. In another week it'l probably hit me like a ton of bricks and I'll go off the other end.

But for right now I'm going to ride this out, cause if feels good. Feels like I have a chance to start over and do things better this time.

Or maybe I'm just crazy-LOL”

“How is your back feeling?”

“rock on!

it sorta sucks to not be able to control what happens to you sometimes, but then again i think it's sort of good, because i personally am a dumbass who doesn't really know what's good for her. LOL! you know what i mean, though...something good for you is probably happening, even though it doesn't feel like it all the time, and even though you would never have chosen it for yourself.
:-)”

“In some ways it can be a huge weight lifted off you.”

“Aw lyra, don't be so hard on yourself!”

“It's like old skin. When it doesn't fit anymore, you molt.”

“Yes, lyra, you are being way too hard on yourself. How about we go for a few drinks?”