Speaking of Boyscouts

“A true Boy led troop is a great thing. The troop we were in in Vero was the best example I've ever seen.

It was humorous on campouts when a younger Scout would come to the leader dining fly with a question only to receive dumb stares and a slight grin as he was directed to the SPL or his PL.

It didn't take many times before the young guys got the message.

By contrast the troop we're in here is just the oppisite. The SM and ASMs do all the planning. My son liked the old troop a lot better.”

“We are not as boy led as I would like to be. It seems cyclical the amount of planning and intervention that the adults need to do versus the boys. Right now I've got a good kid as SPL but he just won't run with the program. I'm not sure what to do at this point. But in March his ASPL becomes SPL and the this guy is a planner and a worker so I'm guessing the pendulum will swing closer to what I'd like to see.

To explain the ASPL thing a bit. We only elect ASPLs. At the end of his 6 month term he becomes the SPL and they elect a new ASPL. So far it has helped even out the quality of leadership in the unit to have a boy be an assistant for 6 months and have a firm grasp of what is expected when he takes control for his 6 month term at the head.”

“Who needs Roundtable, we've got TT! HPM thats a great idea to only elect ASPLs.
Too many times, I've seen cronyism impact elections (especially to OA) and quality boys get short shrift. I've seen a 16y/o lose out on a Patrol Leader position to a 12y/o because he wasn't at the meeting because he was sick. He was on the ballot. He was coming off being SPL and was effective, made plans, helped new kids with advancement, excellant attendance etc... Needless to say, the patrol has lost its tradition of being the model patrol. I do believe that boys should be allowed to make their own mistakes, but its painful to watch, sometimes.
And the OA... don't get me started! I'd like to rip off the pocket flap of all the boys who don't participate, pay dues and who grumble about cheerful service; all the while there are model scouts not elected because they aren't running with the cool clic.”

“Yeah Fly that's always an issue and I don't know of any good answers.

I like the idea of electing the ASPL and then rotating him into the SPL slot.

Fly - we used to have more older guys than we had PL and APL spots for - especially when some of the younger guys deserved a spot in the PL position. Our SM, a very wise man, appointed them as Troop Guides. It gave them a chance to be a leader while still letting the younger ones get a shot (and fulfill needed rank requirements).”

“Our roundtables are a joke.

OA election requires a Scoutmaster approval. I ask the boy before hand if he is interested and I explain that the OA is a SERVICE organisation and you are expected to help out. Your responsabilities will INCREASE and it's not a hang out and do nothing for a cool patch thing.

I don't recomend boys that just want a patch if I can help it. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

I've had poor results with Troop Guide and Instructor positions. The last ones I had just wanted to hang out in a corner by themselves and be disruptive. I should have just asked for the badges back.

Live and learn.”

“I'm helping a troop with a consevation project in March. Going to talk about high levels of phosphorus and algal blooms in a lake. I'm looking forward to it!”

“We had really good results with some of the Troop Guides and really poor results with others - depended on the kid and his maturity level.”

“The BSA patrol method is an excellent case study in group dynamics, by the way. I've seen some manger types in different organizations that would have pulled their hair out trying to implement it.”

“finally! My 13 year old joined the boyscouts. I didn't want to pressure him, so I left him alone. After a boyscout group screwed up his interest, he now decided to join here in SC. Hope this group will be more fun. I really want my kids to do the 'scout' thing. I am not going to force them though.”

“If he's in a troop that's really active AND (this is the important part) Boy Led he'll probably like it. The boy led part is key - the adults are merely observers and advisors and the boys make the decisions, plan the program and administer the program (the adults help) but the kids make their own mistakes and learn from them. They get a chance to feel like they are "doing something".”

“Ohh, real important too - make sure they go to summer camp - it's for a week and they'll LOVE IT!!!! They'll come back and tell you 15 times every thing they did.”

“I know they do a lot here, but I really don't know if it's the kids that decide. I guess I'll see. :)

Seams like there a lot of boyscout dads/moms and even leaders on TT huh?”

“Yeah there are, HPM and Tree are both leaders - I'm a former leader, just an active Dad now.

I'll take Alex to the new troop meeting here in FL tomorrow night for the first time.”

“I know about tree and hpm, of course :) didn't know about you though.”

“Though you're not going to force him... be sure to be active. You don't have to get a uniform and be an "official" leader, but please, do offer to drive to outtings, attend committee meetings. Our general rule is that you are NOT allowed to yell at your own kid. Other kids, fine.”

“What Flyguy said... Participate, Gem. It helps the troop, it helps him and lots of these things are just plain fun...”

“I already told them (the leader is my neigbor) that I will help. Only thing I won't do is fixing their computers. People seam to want me to repair every freaking computer they are using. Tired of this darn screen. I'll help with everything else.

(I hate selling cookies too)”

“You're in luck, Boy Scouts don't do cookies (well they do eat them) but brace yourelf they do popcorn.”

“Alex seems to like the new troop! Goin campin this weekend with them too! At first he was a little hesitant, not knowing anybody there and all, but once they SM said not to forget fishing poles, he was in!

Plus in three weeks the troop is going to Charleston to "camp" on the Yorktown. He's PUMPED about that.

So off to a good start.”

“Got a bomb dropped on me last night:

Had a meeting with the district leaders, the pastor of the church that sponsors our troop, and my assistants.

Backing up for a minute, I recently had talked to the pastor about re-signing the charter for 2005. He hadn't done it as of yet and thus, we had this meeting.

So, he informs us that he has spoken to his "council" (whoever that may be) and they unanimously have decided that we are not worth sponsoring anymore. He says that sponsorship is too demanding on his time and that the "council" (and himself included) do not want to perform the tasks at hand. When questioned as to what grueling tasks he thinks he is required to perform, he said that he was told that he needs to attend trainings, seminars, etc. My district leader informed him that all that is required of him is to appoint someone to sign the charter yearly, approve the appointment of any leaders and stay in communication with the troop, should any questions come up. This has the potential of involving about 1 hour of his time yearly. Very demanding, eh?

What I find suspect is that, when he was corrected about how little of his time this would involve, he immediately said that no one wants to accept that responsibility. I know that if I were proven wrong and anticipated some circumstances that were not true, and there really were some other parties that were in on this decision, that I would have said, Ok, let me pose this to them again and see if anyone is willing to take this on. No! We got a flat out rejection. And pretty coldly done, too.

He told us that we are a low priority. He also added that they are looking for some paying tenants for the fall for their services, but insisted that this did not influence their decision.

At the end, he just said an emotionless, "sorry" and pretty much turned his back and asked if we would like to exit his office through the short-cut exit. Then, he opened the door and shut it behind us.

Oh, well! Screw him! I listened to him tell us about how community service oriented they are and, at the same time, he's taking a reputable community service and booting it out. So, we are looking for a new place to roost. Hope we find one...”

“Jeez that sucks. What an ass! I hope you find a new chartering organization soon, Treebeard.”

“This, from a pastor? Sounds like that congregation needs to find themselves a new one.”

“Thanks, man! Frankly, I was more flabergasted about the way he did it.

The other problem I did not mention is that the area (we moved from the Park Slope area when we went to Staten Island) is like Greenwich Village, except in Brooklyn. It's a very expensive and yet, highly diverse community. Lots of gays, lesbians and alternative lifestyles. I can't help but think that somehow, the underlying rifts between communities like this and the stance of the Boy Scouts on a national level, somehow plays a role in this. And, to boot, will make the job of finding a new place a bit more difficult. I only say this because I know that it has come up in the past in situations that I learned about through the district council. Ironically, I am the last one to ever question someone's lifestyle.”

“Way to go Mr. Pastor/minister of faith. Way to act out that faith.

That sucks TB.”

“wow!! Hope you find another place. That's really messed up.

u do food drives [scouting for food] and stuff for them too though, don't ya? I mean isn't it worth it for him? I dont' get it.
last edited: 2/11/05 8:53:46 AM”

“Maybe the problem is that BSA 2 up leadership rule.
The pastor liked the idea of young boys around, but because of 2 up they were never alone.

Why should Catholics be the only clerics with leanings?

(sarcasm font off)”

“Hmmm, now there's a thought. Treebeard, do you know any of the members or deacons at the church? Do any of your boys attend the church? I realize at this point that you probably don't want to be chartered by this church, but you should at least express your displeasure in some manner. The church members may not know what is going on.”

“Tech! This guy has always come off a whacked-out to me. I just didn't expect this. I thought we were meeting to come up with some ways to contribute to the church by utilizing our services. At least that's what he told me he was looking for when I spoke to him a little over a week ago..
last edited: 2/11/05 8:57:06 AM”

“That's horrendous, remind me never to attend that pastor's church.”

“No, no one is affiliated with the church. We are strictly there as a community organization...

BTW, I haven't told the boys yet.

I will say one thing for them. They are going to let us meet while we look for a place. I just want to get a bit of a plan or have something of promise before I tell the boys. Now, I am feeling pressured and I don't like it...
last edited: 2/11/05 8:58:41 AM”

“Good luck Treebeard - this is where your DE will prove his worth - its HIS job to help you find a new sponsor - Try the school - some PTA groups will sponsor troops, or the Kiwani's or Rotary clubs have been known to do fill that role as well.

You'll wind up better off in the long run.”

“Maybe the local HOOters will sponsor you and allow you to hold your meetings there.
last edited: 2/11/05 9:03:49 AM”

“Maybe, Manuka! Can you imagine those wide eyed young boys as their chicken wings are delivered to their tables!!

Roam, you are right about the DE. He is of the thinking that the sooner we get out, the better. So, he's getting on it...”

“My guess is that there was some sort of Church politics and his board or "council" and they didn't want him involved.

Anyways, it shows a lack of courage on his part. It sounds like he offered a made-up reason to avoid conflict, and he failed to give you any real advance notice.

Do you think he Church memebres were uncomfortable with the boy scouts policy on gays, or with the "diversity" of your troop?”

“Ped, I am not sure what his problem is. I found too many inconsistencies to lead me to anything ecept the conclusion that something is amiss. I don't suspect i will ever know the truth. He flat out told us that, even if he wanted to help, the "council" instructed him not to...”

“What denomination is the church?... just curious.”

“I think it's episcopal.

The 'I think' shows how far removed I am from that end of the place, I guess...”

“I'm sure its because of the "issue." Has your Council been outspoken against "National's" policy on the issue? Perhaps, the church needs to be aware that their support of one of your council's units is their way of "sticking it" to National.

I liken the issue to a golf club which you are a member. They don't allow purple people. You can quit and leave the small people "their club" (and what a nice club it is" or you can hang in there until you can get on the membership committee and change the policy.
You know, I know, and even the pastor knows that your unit has no problem with leaders who don't conform to "others'" mandates. He/they think they are being "progressive" by throwing you out, when the only people hurt are kids. The folks in Texas don't give a rats-ass about a unit (especially in the liberal NE) losing their Chartered organization sponsorship.”

“Just wondering if it could have anything to do with the Church being uncomfortable with the Boyscouts stance on homosexuality, some churches are starting to distance themselves, but the Episcopal church is pretty conservative, so this just sounds like a bunch of a-holes who feel the Church doesn't have enough money, maybe, of course this could be some sort of renegade council that feels like it has to reflect the community it's in, Maybe someone could go over their heads?

Looks like Limpy's making the same point...

or the opposite point...
last edited: 2/11/05 10:01:14 AM”

“check out...
http://www.inclusivescouting.net/”

“I wear the "Rainbow knot." It really freaks out the Uniform Nazis at Council events!”

“Bison, I may actually be wrong about the denomination, too. So, don't quote me on that. I am Jewish and not overly religious, to boot. I get lost in remembering the other denominations. And I do think the 'issue' is at hand.

When I had the cub scout pack, I got a call from one kid's mom. She asked me candidly if I had a problem with, and stood with the national org, on same sex partners,because she was concerned that she and her partner may show up at a meeting together. I told her that I personally don't stand with the national organization, but I don't flaunt it in their face, either. Therefore, what is her biz stays her biz. The only reason I would suggest a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy is that it shouldn't become an issue to distract the kids. Given their pre-teen ages, it is probably a good idea not to be that open about it. She appreciated it and showed up with her friend. I knew of their relationship, but there was no outward signs of exhibiting it, which kept it a non-issue...”

“There is no "rift" between the Episcopal Church and Scouting on any level. The only current tensions are between the BSA and Unitarians and certain Jewish denominations.

He didn't tell you the truth of the situation.

Bottom line is that individual church does not want you there anymore. Most likely because their kids aren't in the troop and they can make a buck renting the space.

I've gotten the same rough treatment from time to time with our own charter. Mostly because we are super active and there are usually conflicts between us and their youth groups use of the church vans. We plan ahead, they didn't so they would ignore their own rules regarding the reservation system.

Your DE isn't correct either. The Charter Rep should indeed be trained and the job is a lot more than just an hour a week if done right. The CR is also a voting member of the district and council.

This is a link to the CR training course outline.
It's a PDF.
http://www.nwsc.org/training/CORT0219.pdf”

“I sense the pastor has some big problems, including being a wimp. I agree with a few of the comments above that probably someone who doesn't like the BSA has managed to sway the "council".

We were sponsored by the local Kiwanis. Seems to me you could do that or just self charter as a parent group (haven't heard if that is no longer an option). Perhaps a school or church in the area will let you meet there without sponsoring you.”

“Thanks, HPM and Phil. I figured there probably was more to it, but frankly, I could do with as little of this guy's input as the situation will allow. I have been getting along fine with him on the perimeter. So, I couldn't give a rat's ass about him, as long as he is on the same page with us when it comes to insurance, legalities and the like. You are right about simply not being wanted, too. That was apparent. I am not sure about any of the underlying issues we discussed. I threw them out there because I have feeling, based on some past problems in the community, that they may have been part of it...
last edited: 2/11/05 10:09:06 AM”

“It could be the gay issue.

Most likely they just don't want to be bothered with other people's kids. Frankly most charters don't even do an hour a week and no-one minds it.

It sucks when people make their political statements by taking a good program away from kids who need it.

I think I'd take the kids by his office one day to say thank you for chartering us.”

“Good idea, HPM. I also say the gay issue because of the area we are in. I explained what kind of place it is. Very much like nothing you would see in the middle of Nebraska!”

“Tree, you're welcome.
last edited: 2/11/05 10:19:50 AM”

“I don't mean bring them by as a "in your face" kinda thing. I mean as a thanks for the memories kinda thing.

But chances are by the brusque tone he took it'll be taken as a big "screw you".”

“Sorry, Limpy. You posts were not ignored. I am really trying to assimilate a lot of information concerning an issue that is a bit upsetting.
Unfortunately, I think this guy pretty much closed the door in our faces last night to the point where he is essentially saying to find another place, but we will house you for a little longer. It sounds like they have closed the issue and don't want to discuss it. So, I am thinking that persuading them to take a stand against national may prove fruitless and fall on deaf ears.”