Mountaineering Gear

“In order to help folks like me and Gemini, who are in the process of devloping a mountaineering habit, would you folks share your gear expertise here. I know we've discussed general info (i.e. - you need crampons, axe, etc). I was hoping this could be more for specific gear listings.

I'm looking for a nice pack that can handle winter loads, is light, durable, and tough. The Dana Designs Glacier and Terraplane seem cool, yet heavy. Any other suggestions?”

“Ask Goretexx”

“what kind of cubic inches are you looking for, and how many pounds do you estimate you'll be carrying? there are a lot of lighter full-suspension packs coming out in 2004, if you can wait that long.”

“5,500 - 6,000 ci's, and hopefully under 7 lbs. I was hoping some of you folks could tell us what you use in the winter.

My Mountainsmith is on it's last legs, and I'm going to need another "big" pack that I can use for extended trips (over 1 week) + winter mountaineering trips.”

“uhhh goody!!!”

“Yo Buddha Bear, have you seen this month's issue of "Outside"? The cover story is on K2.. haven't read it yet, but will soon.”

“hey!! I am maybe a german girl...but I can read!! really!!!
I read "outside"”

“I only asked BB specifically because, like me, I know he loves the mag. :-)

So, uh, Gemini... check out this month's issue of Outside!”

“I was just messing with you artex...”

“i know the price is high, but i would seriously consider a mchale pack if i were looking for load hauling capabilities again. they are the shiznit. i currently have an old osprey model (xenith pro) that i use for the winter and heavier (wife is with me) loads.

buddha, the suspension size on my xenith would fit you. i'd be happy to send it to you if you want to see how they feel. you can just send it back when your done. it is quite variable in size. it will carry from around 5200 - 7500 quite nicely. it is over 7 lbs., but i don't think you will be able to tell the difference when you get a heavy load on it. i find it extremely comfortable, even when i have had 50+ pounds in it.

don't be afraid of 7 lb. packs when you are looking to haul heavy loads. osprey is also definitely worth looking into for this catagory in my opinion. i don't know the weight of the crescent 110.

in my opinion, the price of an extra pound (7 lb. + pack) is worth it when you are looking for heavy load abilities. the weight is in the suspension, allowing it to offer more comfort at heavier loads.

look into mchale.”

“for that matter, if you want to see the xenith, i could bring it to mount rogers with me.

once again, feel free to use it for a while if you want. it would be great if you summited k2 or everest with this as your base pack and then sent it back to me. what a momento that would be.”

“Well, the first move is to establish the path you want to take from where you are now, to where you want to end up. "Mountaineering" covers a lot of ground.

At the far end of the spectrum, the accomplished mountaineer is going to be competent camping, hiking, dealing with altitude and extreme cold, forecasting weather, rock climbing, ice climbing, glacier travel, and avalanche awareness. You might want to add skiing or snowboarding to the mix, it is a personal choice.

That's a lot of gear and having a plan at the beginning will maximize what you are able to do between now and the time you have all of it.

The first piece of gear you should look at purchasing is the book, Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills. It is the bible, from duffers like me all the way up to guys like Alex Lowe. The newest version is Version 7. If that isn't in the budget just yet, go to www.climbing.com and they have some similar but smaller guides. Scroll down and look for the "How-to" guides in the left margin.

You already have camping, hiking and weather skills, and you may well have experience with cold, altitude, weather, and even technical (roped) climbing. A big part of moving into mountaineering is just assimilating what you already know into the context of combining them with more advanced skills.

For me I am adding to my mountain savvy by climbing 14ers in the summer season, pushing the limits a little in the late spring and early fall, spending time at the rock climbing gym and doing technical rock climbing outdoors (very important, there is a world of difference between plastic holds and real rock), and looking forward, planning to acquire ice gear, snow and avy knowlege and experience. I'll probably take a glacier class and another for avalanche awareness, and those generally require either snowshoes or skis.

Additionally I snowshow when I can, don't own my own shoes yet, have spent a day snowboarding, and hope to get out on skis several times this winter. It still amazes me just how short the summer season is in the Rockies, mid July to early September, with a month of monsoon rains from around mid July through mid August. Even then you can see snowstorms, so picking up the winter skills in between seasons is a must if you are like me and go crazy waiting for next summer to roll around.

Hope that helps, and if you have more specific questions once you buy the book and start opening the door, be sure to ask.”

“Specifically, I'd hold off on buying a new pack for mountaineering. Any old backpack will get you to the trailhead, any old daypack will get you up and down a single day climb, and between those two, will cover your cragging needs as well.

You probably won't be doing any multi-day climbs for a good while yet. Those usually involve ice and snow, and generally the ice and snow run dry at some point so you need your technical rock experience as well.

Multiday alpine mountaineering packs are very small, light and have provisions for specialized gear like dual axe loops. You have to be able to tilt your head way back with a helmet on, stuff shifting around inside is way not fun, and yet it has to be big enough to carry what absolutely have to have with you. There's a lot that goes into the eqaution regarding a pack, including how much of YOU you can fit into it, and you'll get more for your money by waiting until you know exactly what you want. Odds are it will be a variety of two to five packs to cover all the possibilities.

Your biggest time investment is probably going to be picking up technical climbing on rock and ice. The faster you get started, the sooner those doors will be open for you. Tendon strength increases slowly, and injuries are guaranteed if you push too hard too fast. Figure on a year or two minimum to get your skills up to where they'll need to be to climb rock in a remote mountain environment.

Since there's a lot of overlap between technical rock and ice, and since technical ice builds on technical rock skills, you might want to be getting on rock as soon as you can. Minimal equipment there are rock shoes. You can pick up a pair from 60 to 120 bucks, with $80 being a good compromise. Some say they should fit very tight, but I think you should at least be able to stand comfortably in them for hours and that that's more important. The brand and model aren't all that important at first. Most rock climbers will let you borrow a harness and other minimal gear, but your own harness would be next in line. Petzl, Metolius and Black Diamond make good ones. Figure $70 to $90 for a harness. It should have at least 4 gear loops and be padded for hanging comfort.

You need a large pear shaped locking carabiner, $16, and a belay device. Same brands for the biners and a Black Diamond Air Traffic Controller will allow you to belay and rappel, $16.

A few slings and non-locking biners are nice to have too, maybe two or three of each will complete your cragging equipment until you are ready to start leading. I left out a helmet but that should be a no-brainer, and don't let anyone tell you different. Petzl, from $50 to $80. You don't need the helmet in the gym but you do outdoors. if you see even one rock at the base of the crag you have to know it came from up there, and it came fast. Protect your head.

With those items you can climb mountains and rock and in the gym and that should keep you busy for a good bit.

In fact, that might take you as far as you want to go. Not everybody wants to climb Everest and that's a good thing. It's all about having fun so where ever you choose to go is right for you.”

“http://www.crux.uk.com/ Have you checked out Crux Mountaineering packs?? The A70 is 4576ci and 6587ci extended and only weighs about 2.10 lbs and it has a real frame and suspension! Ive heard these are real strong packs made with Kevlar material. Streamweaver”

“Wow! Thanks for the input folks! I've heard about McHale Packs, and would consider the purchase of one, if I was going to do this regularly (i.e., if I lived in an area where I could do this regularly). Currently, living in Cleveland, I have to buy gear that can conform to long treks, and 3-4 day winter mountaineering trips.

Jeffers, thanks for the advice, if you need snowshoes, or an inexpensive ice climbing axe, I'd be happy to loan/se;; my spares to ya. What is Lizard Head like in the winter (I have a good idea), I was there for a week this summer, and would love to hit it in the winter. Maybe next year we can get a trip going....

Streamweaver - I'm going to check out the packs you suggest right after I post this. They sound great! Thanks for the advice.

Gemini- Be prepared for an invite to a winter flat lander trip in the next few months. I figure this will help you ease into mountaineering, and I can pass along what skills I have.

Late!”

“BB, that would be really cool. Like you, I am already checking ebay, and I did contact someone in germany about boots. (much cheaper) so I am working on my gear. :D”

“arrrrrrgh, another competative bidder! What was I thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!


LOL - fill us in on the deals you get DG.”

“I oopsed on the size of that A70 Pack it is 5687 ci extended sorry bout that Streamweaver”

“I really like my VauDe pack. I have the Montana, got it in 2001 for $159 in Portland. It's sturdy and comfortable. I generally carry 40-50 pounds for multi-day trips.

http://knradventuregear.com/vaude_packs.htm
has good pictures of the packs and says what they weigh.”

“My sum total knowlege of Lizardhead is what I read on the wall at Neptune Mountaineering while waiting on a friend. They have collections of pictures and old gear all over the place, mostly of Whittaker class and above type mountaineers.

The one I remember was about how to safely enjoy Lizard Head (seems it tends to rain rocks). It said "get out of your car, take a picture, return home."

All my trips to the San Juans have been further north and east, between Lake City, Silverton and Ouray, in the Big Blue Wilderness, but I want to get into the South San Juans, and over by Telluride, the whole area is good.

Appreciate the gear offer. I have an axe but might could use some snowshoes sometime. I spend a great deal of time trying to finagle trips out to the Rockies, for climbing or backpacking, and usually get out that way two or three times a year. Putting together a trip sounds like great idea. Let me know if you want planning help and let's do it.”

“Gregory Lassen pack (4400ci), Atomic teleskiis, Riva bindings, Scarpa boots, Black Diamond ice axe, Black Diamond Sabretooth crampons, Edelrid helmut, Komperdell Haute Route Thermogrip poles,Black Diamond tele linx shovel, Marmot XCR pants (w/full side zips), Sierra Designs shell jacket(that can accomodat a helmet), TNF 4 season tent and 0-deg sleeping bag, 1.5" thermarest, MSR Dragon Fly stove, Black Diamond Gemini headlamp, Turtle fur balacklava, wicking glove liners, Mountain Hardware Windstopper gloves, Mountain Hardware Ozone glove, and Ascent glove, OR gaiters,, Sierra designs down booties, Smartwool mountaineering socks,..to name a few

I get most of my gear from REI, The Fith Season in Shasta, and love to shop online.

Wish list -
1)new lighter pack - looking at THF Prophet 65 and MEC Serratus Alpenlite 85.
2) Western Mountaineering Puma Super DL (-20 - deg down bag)
3) Avalanche Beacon & Transceiver & probes

...yeah right!!! "dreamin"”

“baumee..... thanks for the offer. Bring the pack, and if I have a chance, I'll take a look see at it at Mt. Rogers.

Mtn Mo - any down bag that is -20 sounds expensive!!!!!!!!!!!”

“Personally, I won't use a pack that has a side zipper - only top loaders for me. Mine is 75l or 4 500 cu. in.”

“I also prefer crampons with straps and synthetic mummy bags.”

“-20 degree bags can be expensive BB, I got mine from the North Face Outlet (The North Face Titan - It's Titan Warm!!!). It had minor sewing imperfections and only cost me $135.

The problem with the -20 bag is stuffing the sucker! If you don't use a compression bag, it will take over the entire contents of your pack!”

“I'll second Jeffers recommendation on McHale packs. They will make a pack that fits your body, for the loads you intend to carry. However, as Jeffers also mentioned, its not about the gear. Its about 80% experience, or more. If you have adequate but not necessarily super gear, you can still do any number of great adventures.
In the NW, climbing the big volcanoes is one kind of mountaineering, and involves learning self arrest with an ice ax, and crevasse rescue. To me the most fun and challenging mountaineering is in traveling high routes and climbing peaks along the way. Here is a link to info about the Ptarmigan Traverse, one of the best mountaineering routes I know of.

http://alpenglow.org/themes/ptarmigan-1953/

I hiked the Muir Trail and climbed 17 peaks along the way, on a 28 day trip. We didn't even carry a rope, but we climbed North Palisade, Polomonium, Whitney, Banner, Ritter, and many other peaks that California hikers will recognize.

Winter trips on skis or snowshoes is also mountaineering.

In addition to Freedom of the Hills, I'd recommend Allen and Mikes Excellent Winter Camping book, and a great book on mountain rescue by Steve Smetka. Joining a nordic ski patrol will give you a great education in first aid, and they also do some roped rescue work. You don't have to be a great skier, you just have to take the first aid course and be willing to patrol the groomed XC trails at a local ski area. However, you inevitably get good experience on all kinds of skis (classic XC, skate, telemark). Once you get started with sking, you'll do a lot less snowshoeing, and you'll never have the gear you need.

Ever thought of moving West??”

“Ever thought of moving West??

yeah, about every other day!”

“"Once you get started with sking, you'll do a lot less snowshoeing, and you'll never have the gear you need."

I agree with Idaho Bob...I had gotten Atlas 1222 for Xmas, used them twice before being introduced to teleskiing and Mt Shasta...haven't used them since.”

“I use everything I have. Compression sacks rule - I even use one for my tent.

Cap'n, we gonna talk.”

“"Once you get started with skiing, you'll do a lot less snow shoeing...."
Hmmmmmmm. I got my xc skis maybe 5 years ago. I just bought snow shoes. 'Course I'm a coward on hills.”

“I won't be taking up skiing anytime soon!”

“"....and you'll never have the gear you need."

Now THERE'S a good description of mountaineering. If you like buying gear and getting your hands on all kinds of shiny new toys, this is the sport for you. Time you get camping gear, backpacking gear, rock gear, ice gear, snow gear and winter gear, they'll come out with something new that weighsa tenth of what you already have and you'll have to start all over.

It's a process, a lifestyle, not a measurable goal. He who dies with the most toys, wins.”

“I love to discover those shiny new mountaineering toys... then come up with a reason to use them for winter BPing, <G>”

“Check out Vortex Packs too. I have a 5800 ci one that weighs in around 5.5 lbs. I've hiked around in it with up to around 65 or 70 lbs and it carried the weight wonderfully. The only coplaints I've had about the pack have been addressed in the current revision. It's all cordura so it'll take a beating, plus they have a "you break it we fix it, no questions asked" warentee. The frame is also polycarb so it has lateral flex to it, letting it follow the motion of your back as you turn, but not bend under load. Since it is a polycarb (and thus not adjustable) frame, I'd try it out first. Only place I've seen them is Moosejaw mountaineering. I ordered mine from the company.”

“just ordered them:
http://www.asolo.com/content.asp?L=3&IdMen=167

don't know if they're gonna fit, but I paid $129 at sierratradingpost. thought that was pretty good.

not for too cold weather though.

what do you think? I still have time to cancel. :)”

“Asolo are good for wide feet, but sizing runs small.

My street shoe size is 9E, I got a pair of Asolos size 9, too small, sent em back and got 9.5, felt great until a long downhill, big toenail went black and fell off, both feet.

Now got Koflachs, no toe prob.
Think the Asolo a little better made than the Koflach.”

“dang girl, your gettin serious!”

“it could work then. I have sort of wide feet, at least that's what someone told me once.

those are men sizes and I ordered a 6.5 because they are running small.

I normally have a 7.5 in a women size.”

“roam, i am getting ready slowly, but never thought off selling my old gear....

i still need ice axe. LOL”

“not for too cold weather though.

Why? When your hiking your feet will heat up. I normally don't like a lot of isolation on my feet for winter hikes because I like to keep the sweat factor down as much as possible. For at camp switch over to down booties.”

“i hate cold feet, and get them very fast. I think when they refer to "cold", they refer to extreme conditions.

I think I should be okay. DON'T want to climb everest ya know!”

“Want to order me a pair?
jk

I do need a better pair of boots that will accept full crampons better than my current pair.”

“Never had cold feet in double plastic boots.

I do keep the liners in the sleeping bag overnight for real cold weather. Gets a little crowded in there, Me, boot liners, water bottle, headlamp (keep batteries warm), camera (same), daytime first layer.

This is why a slighty longer bag is great for winter, shove the boot liners & clothes down to the foot area.”

“i thought for the price and the one review I found I can't go wrong.

i am almost there. Took me almost a year, but I am there.”

“Does this mean you're coming up to the ADK's for Thanksgiving again?”

“lol, I actually had fun on that trip. a little short cut and muddy, but oh well...”

“I just got back from Moosejaw at lunch. I got a climbing harness, locking caribiner and ATC rappeling device. Mandatory gear for my September adventure race and my first climbing gear!”

“i got the harness, the locking caribiner and the rappeling device. I do NEED the rope. :) soooo much $$$$$$$ though for a dang rope!

problem with me is, I get overwhelmed. I dont' know what to buy first because I need it all, but can't afford it all. At the end I end up having nothing!!

LOL, that's what took me so long in the first place.”

“your sleeping bag got there yet Gem?”

“nope, not yet. I emailed them yesterday and they said it would take about another week. it shipped directly from western mountaineering, and they are located on the west coast. It'll take a wile. :)”