Odd War Notes

“C/O = chicken/#&%!$!
Alaskawarren, did you join for the college money?? You make me sick dude. If you object then do not join, period. My job in the Army was to follow orders, whether I liked them or not, so was yours.”

“I went to Ft. Sill in 1986, just for Basic/AIT. I was a 13B, Cannon Cocker. When I went, we were still using the WWII barracks, the two story ones that were up on stilts. I did the rest of my time in the 1st BN 5th Regimental FA in Fort Riley, with the 1st I.D.”

“A quick firefighting note of political importance, I think, since there appears to be other fighterfighters here. If the World Trade Center buildings had been the Taliban National Headquarters, those firefighters would have still gone into that building and done the exact same thing. Not because they sought martyrdom, but for absolutely no other reason at all except that is what firefighters do.

It's inappropriate to use life savers as rationalization for life taking. The light of reason hits the red, white and blue prism and gets bent into a world where you drop things and they fall to the ceiling and we deflect responsiblity onto the handiest bad guy. Iraq.”

“Warren take your fake Navy career and your fake firefighter dream and go back where ever you came from.

Somewhere near Baltimore would be my guess.”

“Taliban,I would of brought a bag of marshmallows!”

“America is an embarrassment, alright. Take the human rights in Cuba. Human rights groups have slammed the United States for detaining children aged 13 to 15 at the camp.

P.S. Big E”

“Here's a really easy question for warren, who says he served in the Navy.

It's a three-parter, so don't get confused:

what was your

1. Rate
2. Rating
3. 2 letter division specification

This is something every squid remembers for the rest of his life.”

“Phaedrus, I was an AK3, busted down to E-1 during the process of getting fired. I was not in a division, I was in a squadron, VAQ-139, which was a part of Carrier Air Group 14 on the carrier USS Independence. Before 1990, the CAG was attached to the USS Constellation. Although, both WESTPAC cruises I made on both of those boats I was assigned TAD to S-6 Division. I was on the Constellation when it caught fire off San Diego in 87 - but I did not start the fire.”

“Don't get confused, Phaedrus. You moronic loser.”

“VAQ-139 is an EA-6B Prowler squadron that flew out of NAS Whidbey Island, WA.”

“If you're not a liar, you're an idiot. AK's make sure the Ordinace is accounted for before the AO's take it. What did you THINK was done with that Ordinance?

Besides of which, we, in the first gulf war, were repulsing an unprovoked attack on a soveriegn nation. Can you think of a situation where war is more justified?

You said there was press about your hunder strike and supposed plight. Do you have any links or evidence?”

“You guys mean to tell me that if I enlist in the armed forces I might actually have to go fight somewhere? WTF? I thought the armed forces was simply a way to get some money for college! Those lieing bastards!

What happened to the good old days when they made conscious objectors medics?

“Don’t wanna kill anyone? Fine. You can fix up the ones who will.”

I like to think that fighting men and women can serve their country rather than their own personal views. Does this mean they are free to kill children? No. But they should put themselves ahead of their own views and do the job they signed up for.”

“Wow, good post Phaed. I see you in a different light now.”

“Besides of which, we, in the first gulf war, were repulsing an unprovoked attack on a soveriegn nation. Can you think of a situation where war is more justified?

Yes, one which wasn't given the green light for Iraq to attack Kuwait by Bush Sr's wink.”

“Well, Alaska, you and Saddam certainly agreed on that point. Of course, if he weren't so insane, he might have seen that he was mistaken about that "wink" and withdrawn from Kuwait when he realized that the biggest armed force in the world was lined up at his door. Of course he didn't because he's a crazy tyrant.

What's your excuse?”

“I like to think that fighting men and women can serve their country rather than their own personal views. Does this mean they are free to kill children? No. But they should put themselves ahead of their own views and do the job they signed up for." Nigal

And I would like to think Republican leaders could follow that logic, too. Serve the country instead of their own personal desires.”

“Well Alaska, why is it that Clinton rained down more Tomahawks in ‘98 than were used in the entire first Gulf War? The world is not as black and white as you see it not is it as Republican and Democrat as you see it.

Then again, we all know how you see the world.”

“Well, Phaedrus, even after you've been shown to be a pathetic doubting Thomas, you still persist. Besides, you and shrub are just as crazy & insane as Saddam, invading Iraq based on some crazy ideas about bogus WMD programs.”

“"invading Iraq based on some crazy ideas about bogus WMD programs."

This was the exact same reason and evidence that was used by Clinton. Why no comments about him? You see only what you want to. I'd rather be a Doubting Thomas than a Blind Thomas any day.”

“If Saddam was such a crazy tyrant, why did Republican administrations trip over themselves to support & weaponize the tyrant?”

“If you'd care to pay any attention at all, you'd see that I was against the invasion of Iraq this time.

And if you'd care to think things through or be skeptical about anything coming from the left, you might have a reasoned opinion or two, somewhere along the line. As it stands, you're the a left-wing shill without an ounce of credibility. But you knew that already.”

“If Saddam was such a crazy tyrant, why did Republican administrations trip over themselves to support & weaponize the tyrant?"
Alaska
11:56:20 AM
10/25/03

Good question. Care to try to put forth a theory?”

“I would also like to point out what hypocrites Phaedrus and Nigal are. This was alaskawarren's thread, and you two hypocrites showed no respect for him or his thread. And you hypocrites ragged on me for doing the same on birch's thread. A-holes.”

“I see you're trying your best to squirm out of any substantive discussion, as usual. See you later, then, putz.”

“A sermon on respect from Alaska? LOL!

If you can't even see the difference between the two threads you're more dense than I thought.”

“Business: Friday, February 15, 1991
Ranks Of War Objectors Grow -- 20 Seek Sanctuary Aid In 2 Area Churches

Elouise Schumacher


Eric Johnson and Warren Weisman are AWOL. But they're also CO.

In the alphabet soup of military jargon, the two men, both on active duty with the Navy, are deserters and war resisters. They've fled from Whidbey Island to Seattle, wanting to become conscientious objectors.

Johnson and Weisman join a growing group of men and women seeking moral, legal and financial support from two Seattle churches which have offered protection to those who, for reasons of conscience, say they cannot continue to serve in the military.

This week, the ranks of those asking for aid or sanctuary has grown to 20, representing all four branches of the military, some in the military reserves and others on active duty.

Seventeen have sought help from University Baptist Church; three at Shoreline Unitarian Church.

For Johnson, 25, and Weisman, 22, both aviation storekeepers at the naval base, leaving the military was an agonizing decision. They realize it is an uphill battle to convince not only the military brass but a skeptical and troop-supporting public that what they're doing is for the good of the country.

``I can see why people might be threatened by us,'' said Johnson, who is originally from Minneapolis. ``Because once you start thinking conscientiously you can't go back.''

``My obligation to my own conscience far outweighs my duty to my country,'' adds Weisman, an Arizona native.

Though he and Johnson knew each other at the base, they say they arrived at their decisions separately.




The two active-duty servicemen were joined in a recent interview at the church by two reservists, Julie Hughes and Chris Nash.

Hughes, 30, was on inactive reserve with the Air Force until she was called up in January; Nash, 23, is an Army reservist who failed to report last month when his combat-arms unit was activated.

Nash, Weisman and Johnson each has served in the military for about three years; Hughes was in active duty for four years and the reserves for three.

All four say they're in the process of filing an application for conscientious-objector status, which will have to show they are ``conscientiously opposed to participation in war in any form'' because of moral objections.

In theory, the military will discharge any soldier who proves a sincere ethical objection to all war. A Pentagon spokesman yesterday gave statistics showing that last year, 68 percent of all CO applications were approved.

But in wartime, the theory tends to take a back seat to other considerations, such as fighting the war. As expected, processing an application doesn't head the list of Pentagon priorities right now, said Hughes.

But the churches say it is a priority for them. ``If someone has deserted, or is on leave and considering not returning, whatever they come to us with, we are not going to turn them away,'' said the Rev. Donovan Cook of University Baptist.

Thomas Anastasi, minister at Shoreline Unitarian, said that while ``we aren't hiding soldiers under the pews,'' the church is helping three military personnel who have come forward.

At University Baptist, some members are housing soldiers, and attorneys have volunteered their services, said Cook.

The churches are among more than a dozen nationwide offering sanctuary to war resisters. Anastasi said at least three other area Unitarian churches are considering declaring themselves sanctuaries, and other denominations are expected to step forward.

In the eyes of the four sitting in the University District church office, the outpouring of support they've found has reinforced their decision and provided much needed comfort.

``The moral support makes a big difference when you are doing something so unpopular,'' said Nash, a Washington state native. ``I imagine in some places I'd be greeted with derision or scorn or ridicule.''

Some of that ridicule comes from the fact that these war resisters voluntarily joined the armed forces. They must have known the possibility of war was part of the equation when signing up.

``People say we signed this contract and should stick by it,'' said Hughes. ``But can't you change your mind and grow? What's more important, a piece of paper or my moral conscience?''

Like Hughes, the men say a decision they made at age 18 or 19 shouldn't force them, years later, to participate in a war they find immoral. They've changed and matured, and now find themselves opposed to doing what they were trained to do.

Also, they say recruiters used travel, educational benefits and a job to overshadow any negative aspects of the peacetime military they willingly joined.

``It sounds stupid,'' said Johnson, ``but I didn't follow the concept of killing someone out to its conclusion. I came in the military to travel, see the world and get money for school - not to kill people.''

Nash said he thought he knew everything when he was 18. Five years later, he shakes his head at his naivete.

``The deep examination of your moral convictions is not something you do in the military,'' he said. ``Never once was I shown results of what I would do, what the bombs would do. Now, it's a matter of conscience.''

Johnson has heard some sarcastically say that it's rather convenient he became a war resister after the bombs started falling Jan. 16. He says that on Aug. 2, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, he was on the aircraft carrier Eisenhower in the Persian Gulf.

``My decision came not because of the imminence of me being shipped off to war but the immediacy of the war,'' said Johnson. ``The urgency wasn't there before.''

To Nash, the military was a job you did - until last summer. ``It was always abstract before, like a game. I never thought about the death part of it until I had to.''

Weisman wonders if he will end up in jail because of his beliefs, but says he doesn't worry.

``I know the war is very popular right now,'' said Weisman, twisting the wedding band he's worn for two months. ``But if enough people call a dog a cat, does that make it a cat? All we've done is admitted we have to take responsibility for our actions and beliefs, and that's our sin here.''

OBJECTOR APPLICATIONS, 1990

Applied Yes # No Other

ARMY 87 66 13 8 withdrew;

application;

AIR FORCE 19 12 2 5 pending;

MARINES 35 19 14 2 pending;

NAVY # # 65 44 17 4 approved and;

remained as;

noncombatants;

NAVY, 1991 8 5 1 2 pending;

# Discharged from service

# # Navy uses fiscal year instead of calendar year

SOURCE: Pentagon spokesman Maj. Doug Hart.




Copyright (c) 1991 Seattle Times Company, All Rights Reserved.”

“http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/795649.asp

You can do a Google search and come up with reams of evidence, moron.”

“Northwest Weekend: Thursday, March 07, 1991
Anti-War Sailors Released From Brig, Returned To Base

Elouise Schumacher


Two Navy sailors held in the brig at Sand Point for a week after seeking discharge as conscientious objectors were released and sent back to the Whidbey Island base last night.

A Navy hearing officer yesterday decided that Warren Weisman, 22, and Eric Johnson, 25, did not need to remain at the Naval Station Puget Sound brig while awaiting court-martial and could be held in less restricted confinement in Oak Harbor.

The two were in the brig for a week and had staged a hunger strike protesting their treatment, which they said included solitary confinement, 24-hour surveillance and strip searches before visiting with their attorneys.

Gene Romano, a Navy spokesman at Sand Point, said Johnson and Weisman were transported late yesterday to barracks at the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, where the two are aviation storekeepers in separate squadrons.

Both men also ate dinner last night before leaving Seattle, their first meal since arriving at the brig Feb. 27, said Romano.

Johnson and Weisman sought sanctuary at University Baptist Church in Seattle shortly after the Gulf War began in January. After completing their conscientious-objector applications, they reported to Navy authorities after being AWOL for about a month.

Both sailors said at the two-hour hearing yesterday at Sand Point that they would not attempt to leave the Whidbey Island base without approval as they had before.

``They both testified they will not flee and have every intention to remain on base in order for the processes to be completed,'' said Kathleen Wareham, attorney for Weisman. ``They are interested in having the discipline proceedings and their CO applications go forward as soon as possible.''

The sailors face possible charges of unauthorized leaves and disobeying orders. The Navy says it won't process their conscientious-objector applications until the disciplinary charges are resolved.




Johnson, a Minneapolis native, turned himself in Feb. 21 but walked away from the base the next day and was arrested when he returned Feb. 27. Weisman, from Arizona, says he left the base after he was mistreated when he turned himself in Feb. 19. He returned to the base Feb. 26.

Both have about 10 months left to serve on their enlistments.

The Navy's arguments for keeping the men in the brig included possible morale problems at Whidbey if conscientious objectors are at the base.

However, Eric Watness, attorney for Johnson, argued that the U.S. military success in the Gulf War has created high morale that isn't likely to be affected by two sailors on a base of about 8,700 men and women.

The Navy says that discharge or designation as a conscientious objector requires opposition to war in any form by reasons of moral, ethical, or religious training and beliefs.

Since last August, when the Middle East conflict began, the Navy says it has received 16 applications for conscientious-objector status, with 10 approved, one denied and five pending, which is considered a normal number for the period.

Wareham said the sailors are encouraged they were let out of the brig, though they will be severely restricted at Whidbey and face a court-martial within the next three months.

``They feel great,'' she said. ``That level of punitive confinement was plainly unjustified and lesser forms of restraint will work. ``Now they're prepared to stay at base and wait it out.''”

“Excellent. I love it when Phaedrus and Nigal are outed to be the pathetic scum they are.”

“1. Alaska, I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with the like you posted, but it lends evidence to my assertion that you are a hollow-minded shill. I didn't contend that the US and Republicans in specific didn't help to arm Iraq. Duh. I asked you to put forth a single theory about WHY they did, in your own words. Independent thought seems to be a big problem for you.

2. Warren, where are you getting the information to the web from? I did a google search on your name and got nothing other than three links to other people. Of course, you'll understand that a re-posted article could be faked easily on a message board, so I'd like to confirm it before I debate your stance on the war.”

“What? Outted by a few cut and pastes? What, you think concise objectors are something new? They’ve been around sense the beginning of war itself. Now, trying to lend credence to your own person political view of an operation with stories of conscience objectors is just sad. It’s little more than having a need to validate your own beliefs with the beliefs of others. But being the biggest cut and paster here, I don’t think I need to tell you that Alaska. Your whole world revolves around the “see! I told ya so!” mentality. It does nothing but weaken you POV.

It’s as weak as posting that you like to have sex with children and then posting articles from other people who like to have sex with children in an attempt to legitimize your way of thinking.”

“That should say "link you posted"”

“Perfectly understandable. Those are a couple of the stories from the Seattle Times archives.

archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/web”

“You want a theory?

Because republicans enjoy and profit from war. There is no why, moron.”

“You post a theory like that and then call ME a moron? Of course, empty-headed crap like that was used as justification for things like the holocaust and Stalin's purges, but it won't work with me. If you're going to stereotype all members of the republican party, you're just weakening any good argument you might have had.

Too bad about your brain, Alaska. Did you take a piece of shrapnel somewhere along the line?

Warren, hold on and let me check that out.”

“Can you say myopic?”

“Hmmm... Unfortunately, you have to be a subscriber to get access to the archive.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, Warren, did you fit the mold of conscientious objector as against war of any kind?”

“"Hey birch, based on the lack of respect shown by Nigal and humanpackmule, Phaedrus and others on another thread, I would like to say something. I don't believe your friend was killed. In fact, Nigal and Phaedrus probably don't believe your freind even exists, or even in the Army. They think you are just full of BS making it all up. That's the king of respect you sheeple give to others."

If ya can’t prove your point in one thread you might not want to try and make the point at all. Equating your hatful slurs to my differing in opinion with Alaskawarren is the height of stupidity. A desperate stretch on your part at the very least. BTW- I never said I didn’t believe Alaskawarren as to weather he did what he said he did. I personally don’t care and my statements were made on the assumption that he did do what he claimed.

I know it’s hard to keep perspective when you’re having you legs taken out from under you but please try to anyway, OK? Everyone knows you don’t even have a leg to stand on.”

“I personally didn't believe it because he had chosen a handle with "alaska" in it, hadn't posted before (that I had seen), and smelled like a troll to me.

Alaska continues to prove himself incapable of rational thought.”

“I don't know if I fit the mold as a contientious objector then, but I know I do now and I'm thankful my ignorant 22 year-old self had the foresight I did.

I think war is a very juvenile way of solving a problem, exactly the same as a guy beating his wife to make her listen to him. Violent societies are composed of violent individuals.

When Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq, which I foresaw before he even got elected, I saw a man who is supposed to be the leader of an entire country who is so mentally limited that he cannot construct an alternative to physical assault.

I am not a Democrat or a Republican, I do not follow politics at all or consider it to be a worthwhile study towards true understanding of the human animal. I do not believe it is our nature to be violent, I believe it is a very unnatural state, indeed - hence the reason ninety-five percent of calls to the fire department in the Western world are for heart attacks and stress related complaints.”

“Okay. We have nothing to debate, then. Your opinions are yours, and mine differ. I find there are instances when there is no option but to fight, and that the people who are not willing to do so survive only at the expense of those who do.

While many will disagree on the circumstances that indicate no other option but war, I think a flat refusal to ever engage in combat for any cause is not only ignoble, but suicidal. I hope you're comfortable with your decision, especially posting it here, because - as you can tell - you've got some dissenting opinions coming your way.”

“you've got some dissenting opinions coming your way."
Phaedrus
01:18:46 PM

More like disrespectful opinions, jerk. If you call that dissenting, then my posts on birch's thread were also "dissenting opinions."”

“Let's see how many of the a-holes who wrote hateful things on this thread apologize to warren.”

“What hateful things did I say? Cut and paste it.”

“The problems in the middle east are only insurmountable because the solutions are so difficult for the modern American mind to grasp. They're not going to be accomplished by any world leader, but they can be accomplished by individuals.

Let the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions die and take the high voltage charge out of the "Holy Land."

Promote hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and begin switching the U.S. infrastructure from oil to zero emission, locally produced hydrogen.”

“Warren, while I am still not completely sure that you're for real, if you are, you have my apologies for calling you fake.”

“I like to think that fighting men and women can serve their country rather than their own personal views. Nigal Voorhees

He did a lot more than you pathetic little coward who never served.

I joined to serve, so that America would have a srong military...a deterent to war. That's why we always have a strong military, for deterence.”

“So you believe that the first gulf war was justified to deter other nations from invading weaker neighbors then?”

“You cannot put the words "war" and "justified" together if you're trying to form a picture of my thought process. No war is justified, and I hold Saddam Hussein and everybody else who uses violence just as accountable as anybody else. I must confess, however, I don't think Osama Bin Laden fits my profile of another violent animal. From what I can tell - and to quote from the Moyers interview that was on this board - as God's humble judge of fruits, I think he is also suffering from some kind of extreme mental disorder.

We are all at fault for handing our power over to people like him. Was our response to what happened in Kuwait justified? I think it was just hopelessly inevitable.”

“No. There is that small problem of Bush giving Saddam the green light.”