California Fires

“As tragic as this is, it seems that wildfires were bound to happen given that recent years have been some of the hottest and driest on record combined with the fuel from the trees killed by pine beetle infestations.
People's lives and homes are at stake, so it's a dangerous situation. I'm not sure what anyone could do about it; the same situations exist up here as well.”

“Is there any sign that the weather down there might change soon and slow things down?”

“I was in So. Cal. this weekend for my sister-in-law's wedding. The fires looked nasty all weekend, but luckily we were in an area that was unaffected (for now).

Coming home on Sunday, I took I-5 out of the city...the fire on the north side was raging several miles away, filling the sky with smoke. About 200 miles north of LA I saw a convoy of 25 fire engines heading south.

Please know that everyone affected by and fighting these fires are in our thoughts and prayers.”

“We're coming down next week, so I'm wondering if we'll be able to land in Ontario. It seems I can't avoid fires this year; I drove right into the big blazes in Southern Alberta and British Columbia this summer for the Yoho trip in August!”

“My prayers are out the them all in the area. It is in fates hands now.”

“Second that thought MRSCHILI!”

“Saw the news on this when I tuned in for Monday Night Football.

I can totally relate to what y'all are going through, in that area, after having a similar disaster up here in BC this summer. What a tragic loss !!

Just a couple weeks after our backcountry finally reopened, some areas were closed again for flooding, when we got pounded by record rainfall. It's been a wild year for weather”

“i just read that the 2 San Diego fires may merge. one was indeed started by a lost hunter who set off a FLARE to be found. the quote is "criminal charges may be sought against the hunter." i can't even shake my head, i'm so stunned.”

“just like with cali's economy, the liberals are to blame. it's illegal to pick up dead twigs for a campfire. back in the day, people were allowed to harvest deadfall for burning in their fireplaces but the rediculous regulations brought about by the radical invironazis have coem home to roost. there is so much fuel lying around . . ..boy they sure love the environment.....too bad it's all gone....”

“strat, i could just as easily blame unrestricted development and poor street planning for the incredible property losses, plus decades of short-sighted fire suppression policies (from both city, state, and federal officials).”

“unrestricted developement? PUHLEEZE! nothing in california has been unrestricted in decades. did all that developement occur in the forrest, where the fires started? no....

decades of shortsighted fire suppresion policies? ok, that's what i'm talkin about . the liberals saves the kangaroo rat but the whole forrest burned as a result.....no rats, no deer, no bears, no lizards and NO TREES!


WHEW! good thing we listened to them....i know those burned up rats are thankful right about now.....”

“yes, the development has extended into unsafe areas, including the forests' edges. i kind of live here, and hike here, so i do know a little bit about the neighborhoods that have burned. the folks who live in the canyons that are choked with highly flammable chaparral are the same ones who objected to controlled fires and threatened to sue if their homes were damaged. protection of private property is part of the reason that naturally-occurring fires haven't been allowed to run their course. since that protected private property hasn't burned anytime in recent memory, the housing developments were approved. many homeowners have never bothered to keep a fire clearance around their homes - too much work and their landscaping looked so nice! would you please stop blaming this solely on the liberal boogeyman? the money-grubbing "conservative" boogeyman deserves even more blame. and i voted Republican in the last election, so shove that in your pie hole and chew it.”

“Ontario Airport was open today (Tuesday). I work near the airport and its had planes coming in all day long. There is a lot of smokey haze in the air, but its a lot better than it was yesterday, plus the smell of smoke is not as strong. Check with your airline to make sure before you drive there, because the sky was really smoky just east in San Bernardino.

How about this for a "Dufus of the Day" award - Was out in City of San Bernardino today on business and saw someone trying to blow ash out of his store's parking lot with a leafblower while more was falling from the sky!”

“Much of what has burned so far is the result of years of drought and someone starting a fire. Failing to clear brush and replace wood roofs has come into play. Poor forest management is also a factor, but those areas with the worst potential for firestorms haven't started burning yet. When they do, look out.

I am a political conservative, but I can't say I see anyone who has understood the forest on either side of the aisle. Congress (mostly Democratic until recently) has continued to cut the Forest Service Budget. The Forest Service is so thin they can't even enforce a forest closure if they have to, let alone do controlled burns. I think the National Park Service is a little better off, but they only control the National Park Forests.

The thinning of the San Bernardino Forest should have started decades ago. Most of the forests are about 2.5 times more dense with trees than they should be. Too much demand for ground water left the trees vulnerable to the bark beetle when the drought persisted.

The only real strategy we have right now is to spend about $50-$100 million per year to have mucho firefighting equipment on standby to respond to fires immediately and crush them ASAP. Water dropping helicopters, planes, trucks, etc.

Lake Arrowhead was in the process of eliminating dead trees with a fury, but the task is daunting.

Last I heard they have essentially evacutated all the mountain resort towns from Crestline to Big Bear.

Got a call from my nephew tonight. He is attending college near the Simi Valley Fire. They have evacuated about 10 minutes away from where he lives. He asked if he could stay with us if necessary.”

“nature does have a way of correcting problems sooner or later....”

“Phil, i was hoping you were around. i trust your input on this most of all. thank you for enlightening us and letting me drop the argument.”

“Thank you, stratdewd, for your completely unintelligible assessment of the fire situation in SoCal and your equally uninformed view of the biotic communities of the region! Kudos to you. Not many would be able to so simplistically politicize what is happening! I will now curse Clinton and chant "Tax and spend!" and point fingers til the flames are extinguished and I feel better.”

“Thanks for the pictures. My brother-in-law lives in San Diego. On Sunday he said waking up on Sunday morning he felt like he smoked a pack of cigarettes because the air was so bad. They couldn't even see the sun.

His greatest concern was if the two fires merge to become one--and from what I heard on the news tonight that is likely to happen.

Hope you and yours are okay.

Mark”

“Just got the first smell of smoke from the fires here on the mojave river. The winds have blown offshore for the last four days ,but now has turned around to on shore,so,it's now our turn to smell what was once forest.”

“scarbubble - Just my humble opinions, but I can remember standing in forest with my volunteer companions talking about this and just hoping we wouldn't get a fire. The fire on the north side of the SB forest several years ago was a warning to us.

Sadly, down south closer to San Diego the town of Cuyamuca burned to the ground today. They are trying to save Julian. Julian is a quaint little tourist town known for its crafts, wine tasting, and apple pies.

At the moment the wind is died down and the temps are dropping for the next few days. Hopefully the on-shore flow won't cause too much wind.”

“Funding from the federal government for the removal of the dead trees in the San Bernardino National Forest was minimal as has been funding over the years. A very sad situation.”

“Actually, it's not always Government's fault. People don't build homes in National Forests, they build on private land and they like to be near the wilderness. Residents on private property (rural subdivisions)often do not like their trees thinned. We see this more and more in Montana where rural land is being developed for subdivisions and the fire protection has stretched the fed, state and local government's budgets pretty thin. The land was traditionally ranch land which was carved up for expensive homes. When it was ranched , it occasionally burned and re-grew. Now there are $million homes which need protection and services like road maintenance, snow removal, water, power, etc.”

“aero - Same here. Forest fires from natural causes (e.g., lightning) have been extinguished for decades and the density of trees in our local forests more than doubled. That meant more ground water was required per acre and when a drought hits it has a greater effect. Conducting controlled burns near residential areas is not a very popular thing to do.

wingding is correct. Very little, if any, budget for thinning, and some emergency funding lately for removing dead trees that could fall on people or roads. Lake Arrowhead was demanding that residents remove dead trees (caused by the recent bark beetle/drought situation) on their property or they would be removed for them and charged for it. Typical costs I heard of was $10,000/owner to remove a few trees. BTW, firewood has been cheap!!

Not to stir up any controversy, but when President Reagan let Yellowstone burn from lightning fires to thin it out he really caught hell. They have been interviewing forestry experts on various talk shows here and they all have said the same thing: much of this is the result of forestry management policy.

A lot of the homes that have burned had wood shingle roofs. I have never understood why we did that here. Many cabins are 100%made of wood. My suburban neighborhood was built in 1972 with wood roofs. Over the years they have all been replaced with non-flammable ones. I was one of the first to replace mine and it was a relief to do so.”

“There was a story a few years back of a Vietnamese immigrant who had built a home up in the hills above LA somewhere. I think it was back about 1996 or so when there were some bad fires in the area.
His subdivision reminded him of the area he was from in Vietnam and how it burned during the war. They had built, pretty much, fireproof homes there using mainly concrete and steel. He built his CA home with that in mind and his was the only one in the subdivision that survived the fires that year.

The Yellowstone fires of 1988 were in one of the hottest, driest years of the century- we had weeks of 100 degrees, 5% humidity and winds. The Park policy was to let naturally-caused (e.g. lightning) to burn and supress man-made fires. But the policy prbably shouldn't have been followed under the conditions that year. Other fires coalesced and the whole place was on fire. The only thing that saved the Park was the change in weather with snow in late September. A lot of people claimed the Park was "runied" forever. But, if anyone has looked lately, it's healthier than ever. the fire didn't just burn across the Park as a blanket, but more like fingers through areas that needed to burn. The result was more wildlife forage and a release of nutrients into the soil and streams. The new trees that grew in the burned areas are now 10-15 feet tall.

That's probably not much consolation to someone losing their home in southern California, though...we just tend to view these processes with a perspective of a human lifetime which is barely a blink in Nature.”

“The home you're talking about was in Laguna Beach. When the guy built it he had a hell of a time getting permits to do it - the City is VERY particular about homes having the 'correct look' so the quaint, 'resort by the sea' ambiance is maintained. If you drive through that neighborhood now you'll find nothing but thick stucco walled homes with fire resistant roofing, gardens, and great brush clearance. The LA Times had 'then and now' pictures of the area in last Saturday's newspaper - what a difference.”

“Phil, Scarbubble, wingding0 -

Don't know if you saw it, but I remember driving up the first part of hwy 38 (before Forest Falls)in the San Bernardino Mtns quite a few times this past spring/summer and looking over at the north slopes of Yucaipa Ridge. The concentration of dead trees was incredible. It was even more amazing looking down from the top of Mt San G and seeing dead trees everywhere up to about 9000 ft. If the fire spreads that far east the Ridge will be one of the last places to go, and it will probably burn incredibly fast. Thats gonna be one sad drive up on my next trip to the SG Wilderness.”

“you'd just better hope the SG Wilderness is still there. i was planning on visiting again in spring, and... well, it's too awful to put into words, what i'm afraid of.”

“top dawg - I took a picture of that exact spot a few months ago. If you look at the high resolution version you will see all the dead trees as red in the picture. If the fire reaches there, it is toast.

That is the problem in Arrowhead. They have 400,000 dead trees. 37 companies were working to remove dead trees at a rate of 1500 per day, but then this all started.

I hope the winds die down and they can get this under control. High winds today aren't helping.”

“So much loss of life. Wildlife and these wonderful mountains and wilderness. These mountains are dying and we're dying right along with them.

"Gravedigger
when you dig my grave
could you make it shallow
so that I can feel the rain
oh, Gravedigger"”

“i hope the fires will soon be contained, it's very sad that most were started by arsonists.”

“Last night in class one of my students was showing me on a map where her cabin was in Crestline compared to the fire line. Hopefully it will be spared.

A faculty member whose office is about 15 ft. from mine lives in Lake Arrowhead. He has evacuated and last I talked to him the winds had shifted and were blowing the fire toward Running Springs and Lake Arrowhead.

I haven't checked the news from last night. Hope the winds died down and the rain continued.”

“The wind shifted last night and burned 250 homes in Cedar Glen near Lake Arrowhead (850 structures?). The dead trees really burned fast. My colleague who lives there said the fire fighters working that fire are the best. They are working hard to save everything they can and are tough.

Some rain and cold is helping. But those dead trees are awful.”

“It looks like the weather is helping up there in the San Bernardino National Forest. I have a friend that's been working the fire and is hopeful that he'll get a break this weekend after getting only a couple hours of sleep a night on the ground next to his truck since last Tuesday.”

“there is plenty of helicopters and equipment. regulations held up 8 navy heli's for 5 days. it's a burocratic mess. look at the satalite images. the fire stops at the mexican border so why is it not burning there? and if anyone thinks that envornmental extremist aren't a major factor in not cleaning up these forest, they are not looking clearly at the whole picture. they could have stopped this fire the first 6 hrs after it started(the one the stupid hunter started with a flare). he was rescued by a helicopter. why couldnt they use a heli to put it out? they even turned down offers from russian tankers to help. it goes on and on. i don't see how houses in the woods is a problem cuz these fires all started and grew out in the national forrest. the houses were a secondary effect. they should have made defensible areas around those houses. just my outside opinion. i calls um likes i sees um......”

“In Lake Arrowhead you needed a permit to cut down a tree...the homeowner's association liked a "lusher" environment. Then after the bark beetles killed 400,000 trees the homeowners had to remove dead trees. Tree removers have been charging $2000/tree for removal.

In other mountain communities you could cut down trees on your property.”

“Phil - neat picture of the Yucaipa Ridge area you posted up above (from up Momyer I believe?). I also drove acorss the SB Mtns from Sugarloaf to Lake Arrowhead a few weeeks ago and the number of dead trees was astounding all across the range.

Lake Arrowhead has got to be the worst area; so many homes with so many trees around them. If the fire picks back up after this cool weekend weather all those homes will still threatened. Even if they don't get torched, the forest situation aroung the lake loked so bad they'll still be threatened.”

“there was a heli 5 minutes away, tanked up with waater, that could have put out this fire while it was still 50 yds wide....but it was called off cuz it was "getting dark". 2o dead people might have been saved, hundreds of homes still standing.....

bug gubment rears it's ugly head.....”

“there was a heli 5 minutes away, tanked up with waater, that could have put out this fire while it was still 50 yds wide....but it was called off cuz it was "getting dark". 2o dead people might have been saved, hundreds of homes still standing.....

big gubment rears it's ugly head.....”

“top dawg - That pic was from from the San Bernardino Peak Trail just before getting to Washington's Monument. So it was accessible from Momyer...I just happened to come the other way.

email me at prrosenkrant@csupomona.edu about a gathering in Pomona on Nov. 6”

“stratdewd - This was just waiting to happen. Decades of poor forest management policy just came to a head.

We had a good rain last night and probably snow in the mountains. That will help a lot. I hope the firefighters can do the "offensive" stuff they planned before the winds come up again or everything dries out.

My colleague that lives in Lake Arrowhead may have lost his home based on where he told me it was located. I will find out next week when I get back to school.”

“As with US foreign intelligence,too many agencies flopping around.'Is that your tree or ours? Dah!!'”

“Glad to hear that you are ok. Lets hope that none of those fires come near you. All of the people involved are in our prayers.”

“karo - Thanks for the concern. Most of us TTer in the LA area were pretty far from the fires. wingding, WLD and top dawg were the closest. wingding had a ringside seat. I work with a lot of people from the vicinity of the burn areas...still waiting to find out who was affected.

Not sure about TTers in the San Diego area.

The wilderness area I volunteer in was about 15 miles east of the fires, but just as volatile. They closed the forest to hiker and backpackers for a while...which they also did last year in September!!

Last night on the news they were blaming Davis for not doing anything to prevent this (he was aware of the potential but didn't put anything in his budget) and Davis was blaming Bush for not sending funding (the Dept of Agriculture has been aware of this also). When the dust settles, there will be enough blame to go around for everyone.

The Department of the Interior is in charge of National Parks. They have been doing controlled burns in Sequoia National Park to try and eliminate the "duff" on the ground that has built up over the years. We saw that going on during SierraPalooza.

With funding, the forests can be restored rather quickly. Without funding it will grow back on its own but it will take much longer. The slower we go the more we risk erosion and destruction of the topsoil from rain and such.

Makes you wonder about all the whooey about ecology, protecting endangered species, and the environment. Looks like much of it was lip=service and missed the important issues. "Environmentalism" to me means looking at the entire system, not just micromanaging what is politically correct or cleaning up mistakes.”

“Phil,

Is this something that the 'Healthy Forest Initiative' proposed by the Bush Administration could have minimized?”

“Not sure, bacpac...good question. I did some surfing:

http://www.fs.fed.us/projects/hfi/

http://defazio.house.gov/082003EGRelease.shtml

http://www.greenmatters.com/gm/subscribers/activism/healthy_forest.html

http://www.confluenceweb.org/article.asp?articleID=91

Looks like the Healthy Forest Initiative was intended to thin the forest, but was painted by environmental groups as an insidious Bush plan for loggers to rape the forests. It is unclear what the truth about the funding is without further investigation.

The whole overgrowth issue was brought up in 1994 as well (during the Clinton Administration) by forest experts, but ignored (maybe California hated Bush so much he didn't want to send funding here...do ya think?). The Oregon fire seem to have gotten Bush involved.

I can say this: I have been a volunteer in the San Bernardino National Forest for the past seven year. Our Forest Service budget was cut every year...four years under Clinton and three under Bush. A controversial "Adventure Pass" program was instituted to charge forest users for parking and fund trail maintenance (since it was cut out of the Forest Service budget).

I am a political and fiscal conservative, but it seems to me that one of the fundamental, legitimate responsibilities of the federal government under the constitution is to manage the National Forests. Health forests provide watershed, lumber, recreation, habitat, and beauty. Instead our tax dollars go to pay for a lot of inefficient pork barrel, socialist, and vote buying programs.”

“diane fienstien and co. had been holding up the healthy forest initiative, now they voted for it all the sudden....


hmmm...”

“Karo - I live about 50 miles away from the fire areas, but work for a company based near where the Grand Prix fire started. The office was virtually empty on Friday Oct 24 - most of the office staff live at the base of the mtns and were evacuating. Two days later on Sunday morning there was a rain of cold ash falling from the sky in my neighborhood (50 miles away), the sky was a deep orange color, and the smell of forest fire smoke was very strong. Really strange!”

“more domestic eco-terrorism news from the West Coast.
The FBI has issued a warrant for the arrest of 62-year-old Michael
Devlyn Poulin, suspected of removing bolts from high-voltage
electrical towers, causing them to collapse the next time they're
hit with high winds. The most recent case involved a tower in
Sacramento, but in the last 10 days, other towers in Madras,
McNary and Klamath Falls, Oregon, have had bolts removed. It is
not known how many other towers may be affected, but it is known
that radical groups such as Earthfirst and the Earth Liberation
Front have used similar tactics against power grids in the past.”

“Could someone tell me how the Healthy Forest Initiative would have reduced the damage caused by the fires in the chapparel (most of the acreage)?”