Bringing back the draft?

“Wow, you can get out, after you enlist if the recruiter lied to you! I always thought that that was their job.

I'm 59 and got out of the Army in 66. Suppose I can get back in?”

“Phaedrus, pilots or officers enlist (or voluntarily sign up for service as opposed to being conscripted,we are splitting hairs but that is evidently necessary). I was not calling them "enlisted" in terms of rank or pay scale. Same word, different meaning. I would have thought a bright young college man like yourself would have noticed the subtlty. I was wrong.

Yep draft boards are filled. And we are currently spread thin. But when GW loses in Nov policy will change we'll see some changes in manpower use.

I am so confident that there will be no draft that I have a wager. How about this. If there is a draft (not talk of or solicitation of selected individuals or offering bonuses to high tech folk or other in demand skills but good old fashioned fodder) by May 21 2006 (plenty of times for our new administration to make changes) I will leave trail talk forever. You seem to be either quite convinced to the contrary or love to fear monger. Either way how about the reverse for you. If there isnt a draft, you leave.”

“I agree, birch. A draft would be a carrer ender and Bush could not afford that.

Now, IF he gets re-elected....”

“"Phaedrus, pilots or officers enlist (or voluntarily sign up for service as opposed to being conscripted,we are splitting hairs but that is evidently necessary). I was not calling them "enlisted" in terms of rank or pay scale. Same word, different meaning. I would have thought a bright young college man like yourself would have noticed the subtlty. I was wrong.


I'd still like to see your source, since you said that pilots are generally kept after their active commission is over. Please pardon my ignorance of your intent for a word more commonly used to refer to non-officer-types in the military.

Yep draft boards are filled. And we are currently spread thin. But when GW loses in Nov policy will change we'll see some changes in manpower use.

This is really the unknown in the whole thing. As you'll notice above, I said that the events in Iraq will go a long way in determining whether there is a draft. The Kerry/Bush election will go a long way in determining that. I think we agree on this, am I right?

I am so confident that there will be no draft that I have a wager. How about this. If there is a draft (not talk of or solicitation of selected individuals or offering bonuses to high tech folk or other in demand skills but good old fashioned fodder) by May 21 2006 (plenty of times for our new administration to make changes) I will leave trail talk forever. You seem to be either quite convinced to the contrary or love to fear monger. Either way how about the reverse for you. If there isnt a draft, you leave."


First, I think that you are convinced because you've somehow become sure that Bush will lose the election. I think you may be right, but I'm not completely convinced. All sorts of things could happen between then and now.

Second, your choice of words by calling speculation fear-mongering puts you and Nigal in each other's underwear. Knock it off, already. No one's asking anyone to panic or do anything other than be aware of the possibilities.

Third, there's no way in hell, I'm making any sort of wager on this for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I really don't want to win. Both the circumstances in which I would "win" this bet, and the "prize" for it are unnattractive ot me. I could care less whether you leave this board, and I would really like to see the US avoid a draft.”

“"...pilots are generally kept after their active commission is over. " I didnt say generaly, I said "has used fairly often", meaning that if an involuntary extension was going to be used it is mostly used on pilots and other highly skilled personel. I have no link I am using the three AF members of my family (their experience and info given by them when they werent allowed out). Though it has happened (I heard on NPR) to some enlisted folks who were already in Iraq and nearing ETS. Regarding pilots I recall extensions being put in place during bosnia,gulf war one and if I recall some no fly enforcements (over iraq) that occured during the bosnia mess.

I have no clue who's gonna win the election. Its Kerrys to lose. Bush's numbers are low, the economy is poor,fuel is at record highs and prisoner abuse is the talk of the town. I maybe wrong but if I were in vegas....

I cant fit nigals underwear. He doesnt wear them.

This whole thread was started by you and every single (I will stand corrected if shown) post of yours is an attempt to show the draft coming back. You have at best chosen selectively. A great example would be the article where Rumsfeld said flatly "no" to a draft. Your posts(and their general tone) imply a draft as immenent. Thats where I get fear mongering. If it were realy a front burner issue it would gets loads of press. I can guarantee the major cable news would push the abuse mess out of the spotlight and NPR would have a full docket of experts. At this point its wrangell and 12-13 others pushing this. Its worth noting that wrangell has done this before, its his schtick.”

“Yeah, okay. I see your point.

My intent was never to show that a draft is imminent or that it was unnavoidable, because I don't believe that is the case. What I do believe is that it has become a greater possibility due to recent events than any of us might have realized.

I appreciated your bringing up Rumsfeld's response to the issue, but it didn't do much to sway my opinion, just because it's Rumsfeld. I wouldn't trust him to tell the truth about this to a reporter during an election year, so even if ia plan for a draft is actually in the works, I would expect to see exactly that response from him. That said, I didn't go looking for his answers to that sort of question one way or the other.

Oh, and on the pilot thing, I'll take your word for it. I was in a rating that was understaffed when I got out of the military, and they offered me a retention bonus, but there was never talk of refusing my terminal separation (or any of the others that left before did), so I thought, from my own experience that this would have to be a pretty drastic measure. Your experience contradicts mine, and trumps it in terms of numbers, so I'll buy into the idea that this is not as drastic a measure as I believed.

I really really don't want to know how you know that Nigal doesn't wear underwear.”

“Pending Draft Legislation Targeted for Spring 2005
The Draft will Start in June 2005
www.congress.org

There is pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills: S 89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin at early as Spring 2005 -- just after the 2004 presidential election. The administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now, while the public's attention is on the elections, so our action on this is needed immediately.

$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. Selective Service must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation. Please see website: www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html to view the sss annual performance plan - fiscal year 2004.

The pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign to fill all 10,350 draft board positions and 11,070 appeals board slots nationwide.. Though this is an unpopular election year topic, military experts and influential members of congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan [and a permanent state of war on "terrorism"] proves accurate, the U.S. may have no choice but to draft.

Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and HR 163 forward this year, http://www.hslda.org/legislation/na...s89/default.asp entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services.

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year.

Even those voters who currently support US actions abroad may still object to this move, knowing their own children or grandchildren will not have a say about whether to fight. Not that it should make a difference, but this plan, among other things, eliminates higher education as a
shelter and includes women in the draft.”

“H.R. 163 text

Links to H.R. 163 status, etc.

S. 89 text

Links to S. 89 status, etc.”

“I guess the links I inserted into the article weren't good enough for you Tilt.”

“Fear mongerers.”

“Uh... no, they weren't, <G>


"Error in at line 242 in query.c"?”

“#&%!$

They worked on my home computer.

It's a right wing conspiracy, I tell ya.”

“OBviously, LOL”

“Bush Posts Classified Ad For 90,000 Troops
WASHINGTON, DC—In an effort to relieve the burden on his overextended armed forces in Iraq, President Bush placed a four-line classified ad in the Monday edition of 75 U.S. newspapers. "WANTED: motivated, dedicated, obedient people looking for career in growing field of nation liberation," the ad read. "90,000 jobs avail. F/T days, nights, weekends. No exp. necessary. Will train. Arabic a plus. Starter pay, solid bnfts." To further boost military enlistment rates, Bush plans to post the job offer at employment offices in 300 cities across the country”

“With the military cutting all "frivolous" research there should be plenting of people looking for jobs. Maybe they should sign up?”

“WASHINGTON — In the latest sign of the growing strains on thinly stretched U.S. armed forces, the Army has issued orders to block tens of thousands of soldiers heading to Iraq and Afghanistan from leaving the military or transferring to other units, the Pentagon said Wednesday.
So-called stop-loss orders can add weeks or months to the tours of soldiers otherwise eligible to leave the Army. In rare cases, the policy could extend soldiers' time in the Army by as long as 18 months past the end of their voluntary enlistments.

Link”

“Mission Accomplished, baby!”

“Bold letters and large fonts are poor netiquette because it appears that you are shouting. Next time, try italicizing your post. Like this:

the policy-o could extend-o soldiers' time-o in the Army-o by as long as 18 months-o past the end of their-o voluntary-o enlistments.”

“My apologies to the comic strip ‘Pearls Before Swine’.”

“90,000 jobs avail. F/T days, nights, weekends. No exp. necessary. Will train. Arabic a plus. Starter pay, solid bnfts." To further boost military enlistment rates, Bush plans to post the job offer at employment offices in 300 cities across the country"
Phaedrus
12:49:21 PM


Do you think the labor dept will count these as 'jobs added to the workforce stats'?”

“Violin: Oy-o.”

“What was the classic....

"Travel all over the world. Meet all sorts of interesting people then kill them."”

“Tilt, I believe the line was " I wanted to experience an ancient and exotic culture and meet exotic people...and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my street with a confirmed kill."”

“(CBS) Since March of last year, Brett Donald’s oldest son, Brent, has been serving in Iraq with the Army’s First Armored Division. As the driver of a Bradley fighting vehicle, Brent has put in 16 months in the combat zone, making countless raids in and around Baghdad.

Three times now, Brent has been promised he's coming home. And each time, he's been called back into combat

Back when his son joined the Army, Brett Donald was happy he’d be earning money to pay for college and proud of his Brent’s choice. But now, it doesn’t seem like such a good deal.

Iraq dominates the headlines, but the U.S. has other vast military commitments. With permanent bases in 18 foreign countries and troop commitments in more than 100 nations, the sun never sets on America's armed forces.

Today, more than a year after major combat operations were declared "over," there are still 138,000 U.S. soldiers serving in Iraq, far more than anticipated, with the possibility of more to come.

So how is the Pentagon keeping up with demand?

One way has been to rely heavily on the National Guard and reservists, many of whom are now entering their third year of active duty.

Another has been to shift troops from one hot spot to another, including the Korean Peninsula, where despite ongoing nuclear tensions, U.S. soldiers are being shipped out to fight in Iraq.

And the Pentagon is handing out so-called "stop-loss" orders -- literally stopping the loss of troops by preventing volunteer soldiers from leaving the service, even after they've fulfilled their obligations.

"Stop-loss" is what's keeping Brent Donald over in Iraq, and it has become an election-year issue.

In a speech June 3, 2004, in Independence, Mo., Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry said, "The administration's answer has been to put Band-Aids on the problem. They have effectively issued a stop-loss policy as a back-door draft."

While he may be trying to score political points by calling the policy a "draft," it raises a question you can expect to hear more of: Is it time to re-think the all-volunteer military? Is it time to bring back the draft?

"The U.S. military is operating at about as high a tempo as it can," says defense analyst Frank Gaffney, who was a Pentagon arms expert in the Reagan administration. "In short, you may need to move rather more directly and swiftly towards a draft than most of us are prepared to contemplate right now."

He says a draft may be the only way the U.S. can tackle the war on terror.

Explains Gaffney, "The sheer magnitude of that problem on literally a global scale, I think, will overwhelm the current capacities of our military. Indeed, they're, by many accounts, pretty much at the breaking point as things stand right now."

Michael O'Hanlon, who analyzes military readiness for the Brookings Institution, says, political rhetoric or not, candidate Kerry is on to something.

"We are essentially imposing a mini-draft, or a draft by any other name, on people in the military who had no reason to think they would have to stay in many cases and are being told they must stay," O'Hanlon explains.”

“From military.com pertaining to "stop-loss" and those who it may affect.

The Ready Reserve is comprised of military members of the Reserve and National Guard, organized in units or as individuals, both of which are liable for recall to active duty to augment the active components in time of war or national emergency as provided by law (10 USC 12301(a) and 12302). The Ready Reserve consists of the Selected Reserve, Individual Ready Reserve and Inactive National Guard. To learn more about these three subcategories, see the Topics Index on the right.

Section 10145 of 10 USC provides basic statutory eligibility requirements for placement in the Ready Reserve. Under the basic requirements outlined, the following individuals may be assigned to the Ready Reserve:

1. Military personnel released from active duty (other than active duty for training) who have incurred a total military obligation of up to eight years.

2. Reserve officers who have incurred a total military obligation of eight years.

3. Members of the Army and Air National Guard of the United States.

4. Direct enlistees in the Reserves who have incurred a total military obligation of up to eight years, including not less than 12 weeks of initial active duty for training.

5. Members whose total length of active and Reserve service is five years or more who have executed a voluntary agreement to remain in the Ready Reserve subject to requirements prescribed by appropriate regulations.

6. A member of the Retired Reserve entitled to retired pay or a retired enlisted member of the regular components of the Armed Forces, if the Secretary concerned makes a special finding that the member’s services in the Ready Reserve are indispensable. This responsibility may not be delegated to lower authority.”

“more good info here”

“Military.com is the single best no-shltter site I’ve found. Beckworth is a major contributor there. He is neither republican nor democrat…he is a soldier and they are the ones he is dedicated to.”

“Is the fact that those who serve can be required to stay in service longer than they intended supposed to be a suprise?

My dad knew this from day one when he enlisted back in the 60's. I distinctly remember asking him when I was very young how long he was going to serve and him telling me that he will serve his twenty years unless "something happens" and they require him to stay in longer.

I'm suprised that political pundits and our elected officials don't know this when every single sailor I know does.”

“HPM, you make a very valid point here. That is also the point I was trying to make here numerous times.I knew from the day I enlisted that I had a minimum of 8 years wether I was "active" or not, for me that meant 6 years of IRR and possible involuntary recall. I think its basic knowledge presented by recruiters.

And yes this is the part that chaps my hide the worst is when ill-informed folks present themselves as somehow knowledgable on a subject which they are not. With all the cutting and pasting none whose been talking the draft has even shown a cursory knowledge of stop loss policy. Its all out there, it took 2 minutes to find the sites I source yet the only articles sourced are newspapers with articles written by equally ill-informed folks stirring up needless fears for some "good copy" its fear-mongering at its worst. And its peresented as fact based info which is specious and quite poorly informed.

this by no means is meant to deny our low manpower issues in our military. But veiling discussions about retention ,recall and calling em a draft will undercut not strengthen the military it'll cause unneeded fear when its present as it has been. But lots of folks are into fear these days...just read this thread.”

“Guardsmen choose not to re-enlist

Associated Press
July 13, 2004

JASPER, Ind. -- Almost two-thirds of Indiana National Guardsmen in a battalion that spent a year in Iraq chose not to re-enlist when their service time expired.

Over the past 21 months, the service contracts of 102 soldiers in the 1st Battalion of the 152nd Regiment expired. Of those, 32, or less than one-third, chose to re-enlist.

The unit typically keeps 85 percent of its members, a sergeant in charge of retaining members said.

Before the war, the unit had 650 members. Now the regiment headquartered about 40 miles northeast of Evansville has about 530 soldiers left, The Herald reported in a story today.

In early 2003, 610 of the members were deployed to Iraq.

"That one big word, 'deployment,' has done more damage than anything," said Sgt. 1st Class Gary Love, who is in charge of convincing soldiers to stay.

"What killed us was the stop-loss," Love said. "There wasn't a whole lot we could do."

continued...”

“The armed forces needs some good young bucks.......any takers?”

“real stories of real americans-

a soldier returning from Iraq says that (orders) his company has to ride shotgun to contractor truck drivers that are not trained in any way, shape, or form- to avoid obstacles like roadside bombs and other military maneuvers. In other words- like I said 2 months ago-
7-11 security guards for the Halliburton bottom-line hired help.

The soldier suggests that we complain to the policy makers and let the Military do it's job. (They turned down the suggestion that they have a military vehicle every 3 or 4 trucks)”

“Mother Jones? Might as well be The National Inquirer.”

“GIs claim threat by Army

Soldiers say they were told to re-enlist or face deployment to Iraq

By Dick Foster, Rocky Mountain News
September 16, 2004

COLORADO SPRINGS - Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an ultimatum - re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to other units expected to deploy to Iraq.

Hundreds of soldiers from the 3rd Brigade Combat Team were presented with that message and a re-enlistment form in a series of assemblies last Thursday, said two soldiers who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The effort is part of a restructuring of the Army into smaller, more flexible forces that can deploy rapidly around the world.

A Fort Carson spokesman confirmed the re-enlistment drive is under way and one of the soldiers provided the form to the Rocky Mountain News. An Army spokesmen denied, however, that soldiers who don't re-enlist with the brigade were threatened.

The form, if signed, would bind the soldier to the 3rd Brigade until Dec. 31, 2007. The two soldiers said they were told that those who did not sign would be transferred out of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team.

"They said if you refuse to re-enlist with the 3rd Brigade, we'll send you down to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, which is going to Iraq for a year, and you can stay with them, or we'll send you to Korea, or to Fort Riley (in Kansas) where they're going to Iraq," said one of the soldiers, a sergeant.

The second soldier, an enlisted man who was interviewed separately, essentially echoed that view.

"They told us if we don't re-enlist, then we'd have to be reassigned. And where we're most needed is in units that are going back to Iraq in the next couple of months. So if you think you're getting out, you're not," he said.

The brigade's presentation outraged many soldiers who are close to fulfilling their obligation and are looking forward to civilian life, the sergeant said.

"We have a whole platoon who refuses to sign," he said.

A Fort Carson spokesman said Wednesday that 3rd Brigade recruitment officers denied threatening the soldiers with Iraq duty.

"I can only tell you what the retention officers told us: The soldiers were not being told they will go to Iraq, but they may go to Iraq," said the spokesman, who gave that explanation before being told later to direct all inquiries to the Pentagon.
[...]
(S)ome soldiers presented with the re-enlistment message last week believe they've already done their duty and should not be penalized for choosing to leave. They deployed to Iraq for a year with the 3rd Brigade last April.

"I don't want to go back to Iraq," said the sergeant. "I went through a lot of things for the Army that weren't necessary and were risky. Iraq has changed a lot of people.''

The enlisted soldier said the recruiters' message left him troubled, unable to sleep and "filled with dread."

"For me, it wasn't about going back to Iraq. It's just the fact that I'm ready to get out of the Army," he said.
[...]”

“These people should have joined the Navy. Fill up those aircraft carrier vending machines.

What I loved was when Ohio decided to take the promised college tuition from the National Guardsmen after they had signed up and been sent off to Iraq. They sure couldn't complain when they were dodging bullets.

But we can't blame the State of Ohio, can we? Who needs to fulfill promises to soldiers when we can have tax cuts?”

“I know you're being sarcastic RL.

Man, I know one lady that would be launching some kind of protest if that was to happen to my kid.”

“Who believes there might be a draft in the next four years?”

“This is a byproduct of the clusterfuk that we call the Bush Presidency. I admire the heck out of our soldiers, but after talking with my dad, who served in Vietnam, if Bush asked me to go to Iraq, I'd tell him to go fuk himself, and it seems that many of our current soldiers are doing just that.

Way to undermine our security douchebag!”

“"and it seems that many of our current soldiers are doing just that."

Buddha, fortunately you arent one of our soldiers. They are non-political force with a sworn duty to the commander in chief regardless of poilitics. If they told the commander in chief to " go fuk himself" they'd be up for a well earned heaping helping of UCMJ. Perhaps you spoken with many a soldier regarding this war (I doubt it though) but the soldiers I have spoken with (all were deployed for at least 6months) didnt at all in any way reflect your attitude, thank God for that.


Phaedrus, we all know that you think a draft is imminent even though no one is considering it besides a handful of democrats (wrangle and crowd). Keep up the fear though, its all Kerry's got.”

“That's ironic, seeing as how Bush's entire 'reasoning' for war turned out to be based on unsubstantiated fear.

'Bringing freedom to the Middle East' was just the excuse of last resort.”

“'Bringing freedom to the Middle East' was just the excuse of last resort."
Tilt
06:01:02 PM
09/17/04
ignore this user


and with the mess Bush has made of Iraq, even that seems far fetched. Bush is not the answer. He has screwed things up to much to get it right. Four more years of Bush and the US will be sucking our thumbs.”

“Tilt, I have made it clear that I think the war shouldnt have been started. But it has and now we are there. WE can pack up and leave and create a giant sucking vacuum to be filled by someone far worse then saddam. Or we can make right by the Iraqs and our dead and finish the job and help create a better future for all concerned. I hope we chose the later but I am doubtful. It'll take too long and we are an impatient nation with short attention spans.”

“Yep, that Freedom thing isn't working out too well either. It's no wonder the previous Bush bailed on that idea in '91.”

“Earthnsky, wars take time and blood. It'd be great if war was as easy as TV shows it. If we cant stomach our dead then we oughtta get out of the war business and leave it to others. Time will tell.”

“Phaedrus, we all know that you think a draft is imminent even though no one is considering it besides a handful of democrats (wrangle and crowd). Keep up the fear though, its all Kerry's got."
birch
05:53:04 PM
09/17/04


Hey Birch, we all know your bulemia makes it hard for you to maintain a coherent thought in your head because of blood sugar fluctuations, but try not to misrepresent my views on every subject you encounter.”

“we can't leave, we have to clean it up. It is our responsibility. There is no doubt that Iraq is a mess and it's already a vaccum for terrorism and that's Bush's fault. the whole damned mess over there is Bush's fault. This mess isn't going to go away anytime soon. We need someone who can do a better job than Bush.”

“Tilt, it cvertainly wont be easy.

Interesting thing about Iraq...of all the countries in the region they had the biggest most highly educated middle class, one of the most secular governments, plus an abundance of resources. Those things if properly handled point to a nation with massive potential.”

“I just don't think Bush's track record in this is any reason to leave him in office --- quite the contrary.”

“Phaedrus, what government officals besides wrangle and company are talking draft? I would love to see sources.

"the whole damned mess over there is Bush's fault" Bush and lots and lots of senators and congressman who voted to support the war.

" We need someone who can do a better job than Bush." I couldnt agree with you more, unfortunately I have yet to see anyone. Please dont take that as a bush endorsement, he's not getting my vote.”