Bringing back the draft?

“Four more years. Four more years! Four more years.”

“350 and counting strat - so when are you going?

Whats a matter? all you warmongers tired of the war already? You said we were unpatriotic when we complained that it was an unneeded war. Show your patriotism now and volunteer.

This thing is only getting started people. So far as the Arabs are concerned we are invading infidel dogs and no matter how much we smile at each other our presence will only be tolerated and eventually resented. Each and every act of violence will only lead to escalation. Our only hope is to withdraw by our choice or be forced out by attrition. Superior firepower means nothing in the long term. A child with a hand grenade is a far more devastating weapon then a MOAB.

Freedom for the Iraqis? By the time we deal with all the terroism Iraq will be little more then a police state.....”

“nbc, cbs, abc, npr, cnn, violin, alaska.....they all want us to leave....just like the terrorist do.
- stratdewd



Again - a great big #&%!$ you to you strat, you lying sack of #&%!$. If you learned to read, you would see that in several posts, I have argued that we can't afford to turn tail now. We should have never gotten into this qWagmire, but now that we're there, we have to see it through.

What is our objective again? It seems to change with the seasons.

Nice to see that you're still trivializing military deaths. Is that the compassionate conservatism I hear so much about?”

“"...."how come when one of us gets killed it's front page news but when we open another water trreatment plant or school nobody even notices?"........."

Yea, right. What else are you going to make up to prop up your point? Where did yo uhere that? Your history dictates that evrrything that comes outta yer mouth, Strat, is veral diarriea. You can not be believed, as you time and time again post nothing but BS. You're an arm chair "General" and to prove how dumb you are, you continue to post that Jihad Bush shayt, which means "Bush's Struggle". Why are you saying that he's struggling? It's people like you that hurt the Republican arty and makes me VERY happy I no longer call myself one. Your a disgrace. Get a phuckin clue!”

“Thank you, Violin.

I heard that Nigal was 34.
Good news for you dude, you can join right up until your 35th birthday!

I finished U.S. Army infantry school(13 weeks) just three weeks before my 35th birthday.

That is what I had to do in order to join the Vermont NG Mtn Inf.

Citizen/soldiers with a life grounded in the real world are good for America.

The Hackworth article about deadwood in the military is worth reading.”

“Actually had I had a bit more maturity that I have now when I was younger I feel the military would have been a great thing for me. It would be impossible for me to join now though at this late date due to my physical unfitness (self admitted). My prospects of fighting would probably only occur if the entire Middle-east rose up against Israel and I went to fight for Israel.”

“Nigal, you would go to Israel and fight for your "homies"?

I was concerned in January '91 that the entire Middle East would rise up in response to invasion by "infidels"(U.S., etc).
That never happened.....a bunch of chicken hawks, I guess.
My battalion would have left our cool mountain gear in New England and been replacements for mechanized infantry.....oh, shee-it!
The only combat we saw was to have our vaccinations updated.

At the time my boys were 7, 4 and 4 months.

Nigal, you can get in shape and be a lean, mean killin' machine!”

“"Nigal, you would go to Israel and fight for your "homies"?"

Or would that be "schlomies"? LOL! I'm glad you didn't have to go Tom. To think that something could have happened to you and I would have missed out on years of abuse and insults.

"Nigal, you can get in shape and be a lean, mean killin' machine!"

Why does the character John Candy palyed in the movie Stripes keep coming to mind? LOL! I ain't that bad off though.”

“"if the entire Middle-east rose up against Israel and I went to fight for Israel..........."

I truley don't think that would really ever happen, not after Israel kicked the hell outta'em the last time they tried something.”

“

Nigal, you can get in shape and be a lean, mean killin' machine!
Tom Terrific

Yep, do like Me! I'm almost ready to re-up.”

“Ha ha ! !

Sorry dude, I was picturing the same guy mud-wrestling with those babes!

They could knock off the excess lard.....no, really!

Ya gets to blow sch!t up!!!”

“Because America needs him!”

“for everyone who continues to make the argument about the U.S. not hearing when schools or water treatment plants open, but always hear about U.S. Soldiers dying...

I don't care when a school opens in the U.S., I don't think I should be paying for it. How do you think I feel about my tax money opening schools in foreign countries?

Now how do I feel if one of your relatives gets killed? Believe it or not, I care about that. Add to that, I'm still waiting for the U.S. to do SOMETHING about Saudi Arabia financing and supporting the 9/11 attacks”

“PS. Nigal... Schlomies??? BWA HA HA HA HA

thanks, I needed that”

“The argument about schools and hospitals opening in Iraq is B.S.

Its as though those things will make up for the deaths or throw us off the scent of the real problems.

I am thrilled that a few good things are happening in Iraq.

Earth To Chicken Hawks:
"The good things are NOT a problem.
The killings ARE a problem.
We are not seeing improvements in regard to violence."”

“Is it correct that they would only be able to draft until the age of 25?”

“"The kids I see in our three local high schools are disappointing as a whole. I think many need a swift boot in the @ss and some discipline and direction. Perhaps focusing on something outside of themselves for a change."
birch

Yeah. Like a rocket propelled grenade coming their way?”

“"Yeah. Like a rocket propelled grenade coming their way?"

Can't believe ya just said that dude...”

“I never believed we should have went there.
I don't believe we shoud stay there any longer than necessary.

I ain't gonna stand around and let you "volunteer" my flesh and blood.”

“I guess I just always thought more of you than to go for a personally hurtful attack on a friend like that in light of how how his best friend was killed by an RPG not two weeks ago.”

“I just reenlisted with guard unit I am in. I have only three years left to 20 years of service. I really hope that I don't get killed in a war between now and then, but if I do, it was something that I volunteered for. Soldiers die, and that is very unfortunate, but every soldier is a volunteer, the Armed Forces do not want the go to jail or join the Army people.
On the subject of readiness/deployability, the unit just went through SRP, the Soldier Readiness Program. About 30 percent of the unit was determined to non-deployable because of dental problems, they were determined to be in catagory 3 or higher. (Must be Cat 1 or 2 to deploy) Theses non-deployable soldiers start wise assing about how they would not have to deploy, until the out brief. At that point the Medical/Dental staff advise everyone to get there teeth taken care of because if we (the unit) deploy, the troublesome teeth will be reomoved at the deployment station.
Yes, there are some non-deployable troops, but most of those troops could be put into service with some minor repairs.
I don't know crap about any draft, this is the first I have heard of it.”

“For verification purposes, I am in the 321st Signal Company, 442nd Signal Battalion. We work on microwave communication systems.”

“LeSubtil, I am not advocating the draft. I was merely listing pros and cons of a draft. I was more lamenting the attitude of many teens i encounter daily. As you will note I also mention service OUTSIDE of the military for those who wish to serve elsewhere. And I am at an utter lose as to how to even begin to respond to your RPG comment.”

“Right now over in Iraq and all the surrounding areas for support, every single Soldier,Sailer Marine and Airman has volunteered to be there.Maybe some or even most thought that they would never see combat but they ALL new that there was a possibility.They are all homesick,tired, scared and wish they were not there BUT when they get back (99% of them),will be proud to have done their part.

There has been war since the beginning of time and just because some of you ungrateful son of a biscuit eaters don't agree with it you have to go around telling everyone your against this that and the other thing.

Here are some facts:
1. You or I cannot stop this war.
2. You or I cannot stop the Draft if the Government decides to do it.
3. I you don't agree with it thats okay because many have died to give that right to you.
4. We are Americans and if we don't try to make a difference somewhere then who will.
5.You and I didn't always agree with our parents and probably still don't but you still love them don't you? Love your Country it's not perfect but it's the only one you have!”

“Very well put Spam!”

“I was speaking in terms of all the solidiers over there, and all those yet to go. Getting hit by RPG is a distinct possibility, now. Every morning the first thing I hear on the news is how many more have been killed by these kinds of attacks, and I don't see how that's ever going to stop anytime soon.
After much thought, I personally don't believe this war is justified, and it disturbs me to no end to hear of the huge sacrifices and losses of these lives everyday. The thought of any of my kids going there (or any kid), especially if against their will, gives me nightmares. Not the kind of direction I'd wish for them.

That was not intended to be a "hurtful attack" ... please don't take it that way.”

“I have not taken personal offense to any of you guys postings and I do understand what some of you are feeling. I understand the sacrafices being made by the troops and their families and I truely understand when you guys stand up for the troops in a war that you do not believe in But the service members made their choices.I'm sure that every one of us has a place in our heart for each and every service member that is participating in this war.I especially do because I am responsible for putting almost 700 people in the Army over the last 16 years.I never ever lied to them and made sure that each and every one knew what they were getting into. I had a great recruiter that told me the real deal and I tried to do the same for all my recruits.Now since I retired I feel guilty for not being there to watch their backs.”

“Spam - For the most part, I do appauled your post. I think that it was well put and insightful.

Please let me be very candid here. We, as the American people, can DEMAND that our troops are put into a position to be successful. That has not happened under this current Administration's watch. IF the people wanted to, yes we could stop this war, right now if WE wanted to. It was pressure from the street that brought the war in Vietanm to a close, which I might remind everyone, was another situation where our troops were not put into a position to win. I kindly disagree that the draft could not be stopped, if WE say NO, it will not happen. It is up to us to decide what we will tolerate as a people.

Those who don't learn from there mistakes, are DOOMED to repeat them, as is the case here. My phucking dog could have planned this action better. So, I ask, just because we are delt a carppy hand, does that mean we must play with it? NO! We should demand better! This is phucking WAR! We should be playing to win, not further a pre-determind plan, made by the people in power, from a "Drunk Tank" years before.

A passive public will be an abused people! The first time WE feel that nothing can be done to change a situation, WE'VE lost! Today, on the radio (which is a local talk raido station, WWJ 950), they said that there is going to be a restructuring of our Army in Iraq. I thought "Great! The message is finally getting through", only to hear that we will be reducing the amount of troops, calling up fresh ones for rotation in! WTF, I ask!

John McCain was quoted in the piece as saying that this was incorrect, as we DON'T have enough troops in ther in the first place. What the hell is going on here?!?! Why is it that our leaders mislead us so? Because WE allow it!! I say NO MORE! Stand up and be counted. Stand up and be noticed! Stand up and DEMAND that our leaders do the right thing. And if they do not, then it is up to US to make a Change!


Power to the People = Power for the USA!


GET DOWN!!!”

“Come on Q! Trying to equate this with Vietnam is utter nonsense. Weather we agree with the reason or not matters little now. The action we have taken has been hugely successful. We took down their government with such blinding accuracy and speed that has never been seen before. Even with the hit and run tactics that the militants are using we are still getting the job done. Yes there are still casualties and that sucks but they are relatively light. Not in a winnable position? Gawd what a very French thing to say. Shall we throw our hands up and surrender now because every Muslim extremist didn't just give up?

Why does it seem like everyone wants to leave this mess for our kids to deal with 10-15 years from now? I've got a niece that has just been attached to a unit there and I have a nephew that would be one of the first to go in a draft (he's a punk kid with a record). I'm concerned for my family right now but I also have nieces and nephews of the ages of 4-6 and I don't want them to have face this same shlt when they reach that age simply because we didn't have the stomach to get the damn job done.”

“I disagree with anyone who says that if the government instates the draft there is nothing we can do about it. That is a very un-democratic statement.”

“"...I am not advocating the draft. I was merely listing pros and cons of a draft."
Birch

I understood that, Joe.
I was pointing out one of the more horrible (to me) cons of the draft.
Nothing more.”

“Its awful that we are losing our volunteers over there.

I don't believe those lives are being spent wisely, and for the time we are stuck in this situation until Iraq is stabilized.

If this government doesn't use its volunteer soldiers more prudently they may well run short of volunteers and resort to conscription.”

“The term "voluntary" is really problematic. In the medical arena a
patient must give consent before treatment. The legal standard for
consent is that it must be a free and informed adult decision.
Furthermore consent must be continuous: it may be withdrawn at
any time. Anything less is not true consent. For enlistment to be
considered truly voluntary it should meet the same criteria, but
clearly it does not.

True consent must be fully informed. Recruiters talk about
educational benefits, they talk about job skills, they talk about
travel, adventure, and becoming "all that you can be." The most
glaring omission in recruitment is anything to do with killing or
being killed. What other employer has such a large system of
hospitals and cemeteries as a job benefit? Killing, for whatever
reason, tramples on sacred ground; taking the life of another
violates ones own humanity. Perhaps that is why no other form of
employment induces such a high rate of suicide? (Among Vietnam
era veterans there have been more suicides than there were combat
deaths.)

What about really coming to terms with the morality of war? In a
draft a conscientious objector must think through the tangled
ethical and moral issues and be able to articulate his beliefs to the
satisfaction of a skeptical Selective Service board. (The draft has
always been gender-specific.) A volunteer in the military is never
asked to think deeply about anything. A case can be argued among
philosophers and theologians for the morality of some wars, but a
potential recruit is never required or even encouraged to think
these issues through. Anyone who is not a conscientious objector
should be a "conscientious participant," but when deep reflection is
absent and actively discouraged, conscience is ignored. Passively
and mindlessly stepping across the line is all that is required.

Any case for the morality of a "just war" requires that a participant
make moral decisions on a case-by-case basis, yet selective
objection is explicitly ruled out by law. If you would fight to
defend your homeland against a direct attack, you would be denied
legal recognition as a conscientious objector. You would then be
denied the right to raise a moral objection when you are put in the
position of being the attacker in another person's homeland. Of
course, any action by the U.S. military is wrapped in the flag and
described as defending freedom. Any opinions to the contrary are
labeled "political" and beyond the purview of a soldier. If you give
up the right to make moral or "political" choices you allow yourself
to potentially become an agent of evil. The freedom to follow ones
conscience is never absolutely blocked, but the consequences of
obeying ones conscience instead of obeying an order can be severe
indeed.

(I'll get the author and site, if anyone desires)”

“Ahem....Maybe this way would work:


I'm pointing out that we as a people can control the actions of the Government, if we want to.

I've have never said that we need to leave now. I have always said that we needed a better plan. We have the tools to take care of this "new style of war". Let's take care of it. I'm sorry that's being misinterupted with my "Let's get the job done and bring'em home" additude. I think every could agree that that should happen.

I have agreed that leaving now in the middle of things would be very bad. I have always said that.

I was using the situation about Vietnam as an example of how the people'e message got through and action happened. Nothing more.

I have never tried to put this action on the same level as Vietnam. Different time, different war. Please don't spin it that way. If I draw paralles to Vietnam, it's because there are similar in certain areas, but all wars have certain things that are similar. Vietnam was a situation were we lost very few battles (if any), but still lost the war. Similar? Only time will tell.

Victory was declared too early. Our leaders have not put us in a position to win. Just because there Military folded "at the gates of Hell", as resorted to there present tactic (which I will say might have been there Plan B any ways), doesn't mean we have won, Nigal, we both know that. Victory should be declared when we have everything in order. It was an ovder zellous thing for your President to do.

To be passive, is to be open to the double cross. We must always let our leaders know that we are watching and that they will pay with there jobs if the proper action is not completed. The President has not right to piss on our leggs and tell us it just raining.

So, with that, this "Frenchie" bids this adu...”

“And all this controlling the government's actions is based on the assumption that we, the average person, knows more about fighting a war than the military that has been doing it sense the birth of our nation.

We never claimed victory. Bush said the major fighting had ended. Because everyone threw their hat in the air and assumed no one else was going to die makes it THEIR miscalculation...not the military leadership's.

'Nough for today. I'm off the politico threads until Monday. Have fun guys! 8)”

“I think you would have to agree, Spam, that free exchange of ideas and debate is something that makes this country worth risking lives for. If people in a Democracy strongly believe that our government is following a wrong policy, they have a moral duty to make their objections heard. It’s not ‘complaining’, it’s patriotism. Hopefully, after debate, the best course for the country is pursued.

What exactly are our goals in Iraq and how will we know when we’re done?

I saw Richard Perle interviewed just before the war and he said that if we were sincere about this thing, we would be willing to see an elected Islamic theocracy ruling Iraq. We seem to be doing everything we can to prevent that from happening now. I wonder if that contributes to instability and delay? From my very limited knowledge of Islam, the political realm is not separate from the spiritual. The idea of establishing western-style secular democracy throughout the region may be, as many argued before the war, a hopelessly idealistic notion bound to failure. For a President who derided ‘nation building’ as a candidate, he sure has led us on a radical adventure in cultural transformation.”

“Have a nice weekend Nigal.

And don't forget to EAT IT !”

“For a President who derided ‘nation building’ as a candidate, he sure has led us on a radical adventure in cultural transformation.

What makes you think the Bush admin is interested in rebuilding a long-term stable democratic Iraq? It seems they're mostly concerned with creating a government that has nominal support among Iraqis that can be heavily and covertly manipulated toward U.S. interests. If democracy sets in, so much the better, but it's obviously not the primary goal.”

“"It seems they're mostly concerned with creating a government that has nominal support among Iraqis that can be heavily and covertly manipulated toward U.S. interests....."

Just like it was back in da day wen Saddam was our friend! Oh, the good ole days.....”

“Dr. Rice stated the other day we had learned from the past 60 and would move away from a policy of supporting dictatorships just because they coincided with our short-term goals. Are we following PNC stated policies or not?”

“learned from the last 60 years...”

“

"For enlistment to be
considered truly voluntary it should meet the same criteria, but
clearly it does not."

Why? Enlistment and continuation are two different things. Without an obligatory continuation, people would likely take what they can from the militay and then withdraw their consent.

"True consent must be fully informed."

Why?One could extend this to the field of sales and bring the economy to a halt!

"the morality of war?"

What morality of war? etc.

That article strikes me as a crock of #&%!$. It is a bunch of statements introducing conclusions, which do not necessarily follow logically nor are they substantiated.”

“Violin, I seriously doubt the resultant government is going to be a dictatorship. It might not be legitimate in the strictest sense, but it certainly won't be totalitarian.

And no, PNAC philosophy is not driving foreign policy at the moment.”

“It was pressure from the street that brought the war in Vietanm to a close, which I might remind everyone, was another situation where our troops were not put into a position to win.
-- laqtis
09:44:42 PM
11/05/03


Come on Q! Trying to equate this with Vietnam is utter nonsense.
-- Nigal
10:54:36 PM
11/05/03



From the Wingnut Debating School:

The War on Analogy, which is one of my favorites, is when conservatives pick apart an analogy by bringing in utterly irrelevent details. For example, if I write "Iraq is, in many ways, like Vietnam," a graduate of the wingnut debating school will respond with "You're wrong! Iraq is in the Middle East!"”

“That's quite a stretch to suggest that's what Nigil's doing.”

“You are all making very good points here, and I agree with almost all of them.
One person killing another goes against most everything I was taught when I was young, that is why soldiers are not encouraged to think to much about it. But, during the bayonet course, we were encouraged to think very much about it. When it comes to down to me or him, I would much rather be alive than dead. Not everyone has the same background though. Some nations have taken the time to teach their soldiers that it is better to die fighting for their country or religion than have either be taken away from them.
I feel that sodiers do know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up. My view may be skewed a bit because of the amount of time I have served in the military.
I also agree that military needs a clear plan on when to leave Iraq and Afghanistan, and once that plan is in place they need to do everything they can to accelarate the completion of the plan. Currently, it seems to me that there are no clear objectives for the soldiers to accomplish that will get them out of there. If there were clear objectives being communicated to the soldiers, they would do everything they could to accomplish them, i.e., "After you peel all of those potatoes you can go drink beer." The soldier would peel the potatoes as fast as he/she could.
I think that the lack of direction is what is holding things up over there.”

“ Currently, it seems to me that there are no clear objectives for the soldiers to accomplish that will get them out of there

That's because there are no plans to take the soldiers out of Iraq. The objective of the war was to make America the dominant military power in the region - which was handily accomplished. The goal the gubmint wants most is to garrison our troops behind nice, safe fences and walls, and let the Iraqis or multi-nationals provide the security.”

“The idea that a new recruit has no idea that he or she may have to kill or die is utter nonsense.”

“Of interest in the NY Times: Baghdad Scrambled to Offer Deal to U.S. as War Loomed”

“Birch, I'm assuming that you were referring to this snippet, which I view as addressing the selling of military service to potential recruits (by recruiters)
"Recruiters talk about educational benefits, they talk about job skills, they talk about travel, adventure, and becoming "all that you can be." The most glaring omission in recruitment is anything to do with killing or
being killed."

Perhaps our recruiter emeritus can shed some light on how often potential recruits are told that 'of course, you may get shot-up, killed, or disabled, but then again, you may be asked to shoot, kill or disable someone else." Or is that just "understood" and not addressed, which is the contention of the above quote.”