Bringing back the draft?

“I'm also strongly against the draft. If anyone ever invades this country, there would be no need of a draft. They would probably be overwhelmed with volunteers.”

“Hmmmmm, who would invade?

Mexico?”

“Mexico invade the U.S.? If you look closely enough in some regions of this country, it may appear they already have. Maybe not with tanks and troops, but it's still an invasion of a kind. Good or bad, like it or not, its happening.”

“I was worried about my youngest son too. I think though that he is 4F, since he gets elevation illness, asthma, and has a heart murmor. I served in the army during The Vietnam era, however was stationed in Germany. It did not harm me, however, I had grown up in a nice family and neighborhood. It was a wide awakening to how others live, like those from the slums of Chicago or LA. Once I actually shook the hand of General Haag and received a letter of appreciation from him for having tested radio equipment going to Saudi Arabia, and if I had reinlisted would have gone to Saudi Arabia to become a technology instructor.

The worst experience I had was when during the middle of the night, a man came into my room, even though my room mates were there, and awoke me trying to rape me. I beat the living daylights out of him! Pretty good huh? Of course the officer that took 2 stripes from the guy later apologized to me for not sending the man to jail. It seems he had raped a German girl and the Germans ran over the guys legs many times, causing them to be amputated. He eventually was wheelchair bound in Levenwood. One of those sexual harrassment cases that the army got away with way too many times.

Also, in the 70's guys were allowed to cat call you, and make lude remarks. ICKY!

Yes, it had some valuable life experiences yet some very ugly ones too.”

“Yep, lets all let everyone else do the fightin and dyin. Its not my prob. Just let me reap the benefits and not make any sacrifices. (I am not speaking about the current mess in Iraq,I am making generalities). Its all about me.

There is a great line from a song..." why should they go out to fight? They leave that role to the poor."

Self sacrifice is what made America the great nation we have. Selfishness will be its demise, wether its at a corporate,political or family level.

The tradition of Duty,Service to others and Country is all but dead. Who gives a crap.”

“I don't think we need a draft right now, nor do I think we'll need one in the forseeable future. Like someone said, if we are invaded, volunteers will swarm. Enlistment rates skyrocketed after 9/11.

I have a son who says he wants to join the Marines. Now, he's really young and will probably change his mind a dozen times, but I told him that it would be a great experience and he would learn a lot and I would be very proud if he decided to join any branch of the service. I'm not anxious to see him go fight and possibly die on foreign soil, but just the same service in the military is a very noble undertaking.”

“I wouldn’t want my child to be drafted either. I would hate it. It would scare me to DEATH! However I would encourage them to go. If they felt they could not kill a fellow human I would encourage them to go ahead and be a conscience objector and become a medic or be in the rear with the gear (there is absolutely NO shame in this). If they chose not to go into the draft I would have to spend the holidays in Canada because if they went there I would encourage them to stay there.

But then again I don’t have any kids so any opinion I have means jack squat, right?”

“nigal, what's your adress? i'm sending my 3 boys (6,9,& 12) over on a bus...


i feel a draft in here...”

“In reference to Birch's commments -I have no doubt that Americans would be willing to sacrifice and serve their country when necessary. The issue today and in Vietman and in most wars, is when is it really in your country's best interests to go to war? It certainly wasn't in Vietnam and I don't think it is in Iraq. I have no doubt that when and if this country is genuinely threatened, there will be no problems in getting its citizens to defend it.”

“Hikerjer, I was making a generalized statement regarding the tone of the vast majority of responses on this thread.I wish I had your faith. All I see is me me me and I dont think folks all of a sudden get into being generous or self-sacrificial just cause its crunch time. Generosity and selflessness are not part of the human makeup, self-serving and selfishness are. Giving and serving others are learned behaviors.”

“It kind of gives me the impression that many Americans have become somewhat spoiled. Spoiled may be a poor choice of words but it’s the only one I can find for when we want everything with no cost.”

“Spoiled is an accurate description.”

“It just sounds harsh though.”

“Is it possible, even remotely possible... that just maybe, military intervention (by the US) is not always the "right" thing??? That maybe people voicing a reluctance to have their kids sent overseas to fight the "boogie man" (Osama, Saddam, Bung phuc Pow...) is noble?

Is it possible, just possible that the fervor many of the Hawks here voice is residual from the military trainimg/indoctrination which they were subjected to?

Is it remotely possible?”

“Sure it is Limpy.”

“When I turned 18 they had just required registering for the draft. I proudly signed up. My parents were obviously worried, as any parents would be, but since my father proudly served himself, and nearly died while serving, my parents were behind the draft 100%. When our military calls, our young men and women (and their parents) should be willing to fight for what this country stands for, here, or abroad. Whether it's Clinton calling on our soldiers to fight in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somolia, and Iraq, or Bush calling on our soldiers to fight in Iraq, we should proudly serve. As much as you all try and make this a "Bush" war, this was passed very strongly through Congress and had the support of the American public. This is not about "Bush", this is about "serving the USA". Why must so many of you always politicize EVERYTHING? That said, I understand there is always great concern and worry about sending our sons and daughters into harms way to fight for this country. I pray daily for our men and women in uniform and for our leaders, both Democrat and Republican, who make very serious decisions on a daily basis.”

“Birch has a very good point.



8\”

“Maybe I should move to a country less likely to draft my kids. I guess I love them more than the country.”

“Oh, and HPM thanks. I was hoping to hear at least one affirmative.

;-)”

“: "Maybe I should move to a country less likely to draft my kids. I guess I love them more than the country."
Limpy
04:51:50 PM
11/24/03

Hi Limpy! Perhaps France would work out fine for you? :^D”

“NP. Sometimes I'm wrong. Sometimes I'm right. You just have to be open to the possibility.”

“And of course US military intervention is not always the "right" thing.

But I feel that there comes a responsibility to being the richest, freeest (how do you spell that) most prosperous country on the globe. We have a responsibility to look out for democracy and to look out for the "little guy". It's not easy and it's not always going to be popular and it's going to cost American lives. I believe that most, probably not all, members of the Armed Service also feel that way.

When we drop back to an isolationist stance and only protect our own borders, our country will not be the Great Place that it is now.”

“Oh, speaking of France.......
Have any weapons of mass destruction been uncovered in Iraq yet? Who knows, maybe the "liberal press" has buried that news back on page 17 or so, and I missed that disclosure.”

“: Oh, speaking of France.......
Have any weapons of mass destruction been uncovered in Iraq yet? Who knows, maybe the "liberal press" has buried that news back on page 17 or so, and I missed that disclosure."
Limpy
04:59:15 PM
11/24/03

Hmmm... how much time did we give Saddam to get rid of his WMD's? Remember, time was on his side. Looks like we forced him get rid of them, as temporary as that was gonna be (remember Saddam flew his fighter jets into Iran during the Gulf War to keep them from our hands?), and then by ousting him, we secured the fact that he would never bring them back again.

As for whether there were WMD's, here we go again. Even Bill Clinton, AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE, said on Larry King Live:

--Clinton told King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."--

---------------

Here's some more:

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." S
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001”

“"Hmmm... how much time did we give Saddam to get rid of his WMD's?
Remember, time was on his side. Looks like we forced him get rid of
them, as temporary as that was gonna be (remember Saddam flew his
fighter jets into Iran during the Gulf War to keep them from our
hands?), and then by ousting him, we secured the fact that he would
never bring them back again."

So, I'll take that as a "no?"”

“: "So, I'll take that as a "no?"

I'd take it as verifying a very successful campaign to cleanse Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, while getting rid of a brutal dictator in the process. Evil loses, good wins.”

“Limpy, of course military intervention isnt always the correct response. If you will reread my former posts you will see that I was not speaking of the current war with Iraq. I realize that my prior support of this war was based on bad info, I was hoodwinked. My support for this war cost me dearly.

I am by no means a hawk. I was one (i think so anyway). To quote Johnny Cash " I am a dove, with claws".

I still believe that a majority of my countrymen have lost perspective. We are too caught up in ourselves to do for others. I doubt that we have what it takes anymore. Not talking just about military service either. I challenge each of us to look at our own lives and honestly account for the good we intentionaly do for others. Do we weekly seek out opportunities to help? Do we put feet on our words of generosity and charity? Or do we stand by and let others do the work and make the sacrifices?

I see us as a nation on the downside of the curve, coasting slowly but coasting none the less. We will eventually come to the point where momentum alone will carry us.”

“birch, I agree with you in many ways, but the United States of America is still the most generous nation on the planet, and if any country suffers a natural disaster or needs international help, we are first in line with the biggest hearts.”

“Sorry Buck. Your Boy Dubya is a lying piece of crap.”

“: ""Sorry Buck. Your Boy Dubya is a lying piece of crap." - Tilt

I respectfully disagree. I think he is a fine man, a man of character and resolve, a great leader, and someone I am very proud to call my President.”

“As a nation we do step up in times of need for others. I am talking about individuals stepping up each day when the only disaster is daily life. Point taken however.

Tilt, I would also agree with you partly...GW isnt a piece of crap. The other shoe unfortunately seems to fit.

As a side note, the biggest problem I had with Clinton was his inabilty to be truthful. I had higher hopes for GW. He has proven to be no less truthful in regards to his premise for the invasion of Iraq. This next election is gonna suck.”

“birch, I'm not sure why you think G-Dub wasn't truthful in regards to invading Iraq? Clinton pounded Iraq more than once with cruise missiles and jet fighters, and Clinton, even leaving office, thought Saddam still had unaccounted for WMD's. So did Bush. Personally, I think there were WMD's and Saddam either passed them along or hid them or destroyed them under the intense pressure we had him under. There certain were and are "unaccounted" for WMD's, and when you have a madman with unaccounted for WMD's who has historically used them, you don't "trust" him at his word that they're no longer there. I don't see anywhere where Bush "lied". Also, Saddam is most likely still runnin' around somewhere and many Iraqi people still fear him knowing he's still alive and quite pissed off.”

“Limpy, birch is right. Neither one of us was intending our view to be in support of any action in particular. They were views on the draft in general.”

“Believing in your country and showing your pride is a great thing.

Unfortunately, due to various circumstances, I haven't trusted anything a politician has said since about 1971... especially when it comes to making war.”

“This was a CLUE.”

“Buck, the intelligence report (that GW quoted in his state of the union) that said Saddam tried to buy fissible nuclear material in Niger was false, that is number one. Number two is simple IF there were the estimated 16,000 WMDs where are they? Perhaps they were moved, perhaps they were hidden. However ther is NO intelligence that i have heard of at any rate that supports that claim. Please dont mistake what I am saying. I a not saying that saddam is a swell guy who is to be trusted. He is an evil man with an evil record, BUT so are countless other leaders elsewhere. H@ll, Korea has a frickin nuke program and we are handling that situation far more appropriattely.

Clinton was ineffectual in terms of foreign policy with Iraq and Osama. But that is fairly irrelevant since every administration leaves a mess for the next guy.

Regarding saddams use of WMD's . We knw about that in the 80's and did nothing, he was on our side then. My enemies enemy is my friend or some such nonsense.

Invading Afghanistan was proper. A clear mission whose purpose was upfront, the intelligence was sound the plan was well executed. It was text book and it was appropriate. Iraq has been a cluster phuck since the mission seems to change weekly. And no I am not saying our military has done apoor job. To the contrary the invasion was textbook "blitzkrieg 101". The political side has been a joke.”

“: "Buck, the intelligence report (that GW quoted in his state of the union) that said Saddam tried to buy fissible nuclear material in Niger was false, that is number one."

Two things... number one, it hasn't been totally proven false, this was intelligence gathered by the British and many of them are still saying it was accurate, it just wasn't "verified" by the CIA to be true. Secondly, Bush, as all Presidents do, must rely on intelligence data from the CIA, FBI, and NSA (and probably other sources we don't know about or they'd hafta shoot us).

: "Number two is simple IF there were the estimated 16,000 WMDs where are they?"

Well, Saddam certainly wasn't telling us, now was he? We are talking about unaccounted for WMD's that are KNOWN to have existed and Saddam didn't account for them. Should we have trusted him? Nah, at least not IMHO.

: "Perhaps they were moved, perhaps they were hidden. However ther is NO intelligence that i have heard of at any rate that supports that claim."

Huh? Even Clinton said when he left office there were unaccounted for WMD's. Clinton was actually backing up Bush (now there's a rare moment for ya!) on the WMD's thing. Also, read the above quotes (way up above), and I can provide many more quotes from Dems saying that Saddam was a threat and still had WMD's. They just differed as to how BEST manage those, whether it was to go to war or not, but still, they agreed he HAD them.

: "H@ll, Korea has a frickin nuke program and we are handling that situation far more appropriattely."

We can't compare N. Korea because they already HAVE fully functional nuclear capabilities. Of course we have to treat them differently or we'd lose San Francisco. What we did with Saddam was to PREVENT (premptive, remember?) Iraq from becoming another N. Korea. And we succeeded.

: "Regarding saddams use of WMD's . We knw about that in the 80's and did nothing, he was on our side then. My enemies enemy is my friend or some such nonsense."

We also sided with Stalin during WWII to get rid of a bigger evil, Adolf Hitler. Bad move on our part?

: "Iraq has been a cluster phuck since the mission seems to change weekly."

The mission in Iraq doesn't change at all... the mission is to free the people (done), get the country up in running (being done), and then hand it over back to the Iraqi people for free elections and self-rule (being done). What you see there now are terrorists and foreign recruits trying to disrupt a free Iraq, enemies of freedom and Iraqi self-rule.

Those are my thoughts, of course there are those who differ.”

“That's pretty much the standard fox news / GW Bush press release.”

“: "That's pretty much the standard fox news / GW Bush press release."

And your response was pretty much the 'ole standard (and overused) "blame it on Fox News" playbook. FYI, I have never read a Bush press release (I don't even know where to find 'em?), nor can I remember the last time I sat down and watched Fox News. I get much of my news from the liberal Sacramento Bee. Go figger! Yes, Phaedrus, it is possible for reasonable thinking people to come to these conclusions by themselves. Perhaps you should try it yourself sometime instead of rehashing rehearsed responses and lines from liberal talking heads telling you how to think and what to say! :^D”

“President Clinton to Larry King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."

Dang, don't you hate it when Fox News tells Clinton what to say? :Þ”

“This has nothing to do with the draft. I'll start a new thread.”

“"Huh? Even Clinton said when he left office there were unaccounted for WMD's. Clinton was actually backing up Bush (now there's a rare moment for ya!) on the WMD's thing.........."


Clinton's people tried (and Isate this to you for the last phcukin' time, phuck) to brief Bush's peeps about the upcoming threats and the "state of the world" and Bush and the Cronies would have none of it. That's fact. Caint spin it, no matter how much ya try.


and this:

"This is not about "Bush", this is about "serving the USA". Why must so many of you always politicize EVERYTHING?........"


just makes me bust a gut.


what a worthless troll you are. Caint even get the pot rolling, you be slipping......”

“After all, they help support the war effort. I personally would have liked to serve on a ship in the navy.”

“: "Clinton's people tried (and Isate this to you for the last phcukin' time, phuck) to brief Bush's peeps about the upcoming threats and the "state of the world" and Bush and the Cronies would have none of it. That's fact. Caint spin it, no matter how much ya try."

Huh? HA HA! Oh man, Clinton could've nailed Osama more than once, but he let 'em go! Whatchoo tawkin' 'bout? Good stuff, iraqtis! Oh man, and here we have you talking about Clinton, the guy that "made a non-nuclear treaty with N. Korea" as a way to deal with the threat of N. Korea, which, uhhh, N. Korea said, "okay, we won't build any nukes, we promise" and went on to build a nuclear weapon or two, or eigtht. Ya, a handshake works reeeeal good with madmen, you betcha! What a joke! I'm glad we don't have a President in office now who nods his head in agreement when a ruthless and brutal dictator tries to shake his hand make a Boy Scout promise on his word that he'll be really good from now on. We can't put the blind trust and safety of the American people in the "good faith word" of an evil dictator. It happened under Clinton, it ain't gonna happen under Bush. No sir reeee, nuh uh, no way. Thank God.”

“Gawd! Clinton...Bush...Bush...Clinton! Does it ever end?”

“I just realised who 'Buck' is.... it's that Dalmatian from Arkansas.”

“Buck, regarding the US mission in Iraq you said" The mission in Iraq doesn't change at all... the mission is to free the people (done), get the country up in running (being done), and then hand it over back to the Iraqi people for free elections and self-rule (being done). What you see there now are terrorists and foreign recruits trying to disrupt a free Iraq, enemies of freedom and Iraqi self-rule."

That IS the mission now. The original mission was WMDS. the werent to be found so we had to change the mission, thanks for the example.

The info provided by the brits was bad. If it werent the dude responsible for it wouldnt have shot himself because of its use. Second, if anyone uses intelligence without verification they are fools. There have been many reports that the administration only quoted sources that supported its case and disregarded intel that didnt. Verification is the key in intelligence. It makes a specualtion true or false.Without verification you have rumor or supposition.

Democrats supported the war because the vast majority are spineless fools without enough b@lls to standup for themselves. Bush beat the war drum and got the public riled up and ready for blood and vengenace (even though NO ONE can link Saddam to Osama or Al Quaeda). The people wanted war and we have it.

Regarding nukes in Iraq, they have not had nuke program since about 1984-1985 when Israel blew the plant up (made be the french) with US made f-16 fighters. Thats not to say Saddam wouldnt have liked em but they had no program. The aluminum cylinders that were supposed to be for nukes were for by US personnel to be for a different use entirely.

I voted for GW. I am a conservative and say that with pride. But I am not an idealogue who will not be critical of my president. I think he has really screwed up in Iraq and as a conservative believe that I have an obligation to say my peace.”

“"Gawd! Clinton...Bush...Bush...Clinton! Does it ever end?......"


Nope! We just play "Ring around the Rosies" till we all fall down.

It pains me to say, but I think I might just be done with this chit. I'm real tired of arguing with a 2 by 4.”

“It really is the same old crap rehashed, ain't it?”

“You've really made hash of this thread :^P”