What's an Environmentalist to do?

“ - I only know one person who uses the environment as a reason for being vegetarian. Granted, I don't know many vegetrarians but I found the reason very interesting. I actually agree with the reasoning but don't have the willpower to follow through. This person did.”
dayhiker
8:01:28 AM
2/07/06

Who's a vegetarian?

As I've said in the past, my SO works primarily on Meat/Ag issues. She is a Vegan for a variety of reasons.

She is a leading proponent of sustainable farming. In other words, non-factory farming. She's been to Asia, Africa, S. America, along with most of the US, working on it.

I actually eat more meat because of her. It all comes from farms "certified" by her as Organic and Humane.

Vegans/Vegetarians tend to drive her crazy and she's done much in bringing "Meat Issues" out of the fringe World.

;)”

“BTW - sustainable farms are, of course, environmentaly friendly.”

“This country is long overdue for an energy policy that doesn't amount to "buy more oil". There are a lot of technologies out there that can help and show promise for the future (solar, hydro, wind, fuel cells, hydrogen-fueled cars, etc.). I have to say, though, that the environmentalist lobby seems all over the place on this. They want us to get off of oil, but then they oppose and try to shut down dams, which are tremendously cost-effective in generating electricity, and very clean too. And of course they oppose nuclear - not without reason, but still, it's a heck of a lot cleaner than a oil-fired power plant.”

“Environmentalists are in a difficult position. Getting off oil without doing other harm is not easy but some seem to expect a "magic bullet".”

“Yes - and it's official! Bearmagnet and I agree!

I'd like to see a lot more progress done on these kinds of issues, though. Oil has a lot of costs - we're spending massive, massive amounts of money on the stuff, and sending it for the most part to dictatorships, some of which hate us. But even if we were spending it on democracies, it's still capital that's leaving the country. It's a huge expense. If we can find some alternative energy supplies that a) we can produce here, and b) don't pollute, or pollute less, then we could really improve our country in so many ways.
Think of how many lakes, rivers, wetlands, forests we could save with the money we spend on oil, or even a fraction of it.
I'm really holding out for hydrogen as a portable fuel source for cars. The biggest problem is, its really expensive to make.”

“I'm holding out for helium powered cars. Problem with that is the high-pitched squeek the cars make.”

“And with only 150 pounds of weight on the tires, their handling is for #&%!$.”

“Yes - and it's official! Bearmagnet and I agree!

LOL!”

“Early in his presidency, Bush called for restoring the federal Land and Water Conservation Fund to the full $900 million authorized by Congress. Last year, it was approved at $142 million. For 2007, he wants just $85 million in grants for creating and preserving non-federal parks, forest land and wildlife refuges, a 40 percent cut.
"This is the most troubling budget we've seen from this White House," said Heather Taylor, deputy legislative director for Natural Resources Defense Council.

The proposal sent to Congress this week would trim EPA's budget by nearly 5 percent, down to $7.2 billion, and the Interior Department's budget by 2.4 percent, to $9.1 billion.

One potential hole in the Interior budget is $312 million for an Office of Surface Mining program to reclaim abandoned mines. The money comes from coal mining fees set to expire in June. The Bush administration is asking Congress to reauthorize the fees.

Environmentalists contend a bigger danger is the administration's plan to raise $250 million over five years by selling 125,000 acres of the Bureau of Land Management's 261 million acres.
The lands are typically part of a "checkerboard" pattern of small parcels surrounded by suburban or urban areas, Interior officials say, and have been identified as holding little natural, historic, cultural or energy value.

The administration anticipates selling them for $2,000 an acre. The Forest Service plans to sell 170,000-200,000 acres in 41 states, according to The Wilderness Society.

Another proposal affects EPA's electronic catalog that keeps track of tens of thousands of agency documents and research studies, according to EPA internal memos. The agency would cut four-fifths of its library budget — from $2.5 million to $500,000. It pays for a network of dozens of libraries and reading rooms nationally.”

“The Land and Water Conservation Fund should absolutely be fully funded but it never has been and the funds are from oil and gas leases and by former proclamation are to go to the LWCF but invariably much gets hijacked for the general Treasury.

This year the state of NC alone will spend more for conservation land within North Carolina than the federal government spends in the entire country.

Check out:

http://www.landfortomorrow.org/

If the LWCF were funded proportionately to the North Carolina 'Clean Water Management Trust Fund' ($25 per resident), then the LWCF should be allotted $7.5 billion this year which would allow the acquisition of 2.5 million conservation acreas at $3,000/acre and many conservation acres can be had for less, some cost much more.

In terms of the proposed sales of BLM and USFS properties, a partial intent of this notion is to clean up the land ownership pattern with the isolated parcels to go to municipal, county or state agencies.

No way, should any public lands be given away (or sold at a bargain price) to private interests, and no way a program like this can make money for it will cost more to administer such sales than can possibly be raised from the sales.
last edited: 2/10/06 3:26:09 PM”

“It might be OK if a few isolated BLM and USFS tracts were sold so long as the profits were used to acquire more preferable conservation lands other places

but like I stated, I expect there would no profit due to the costs of administering the sales.”

“Les is producing two one-hour specials for Canada’s OLN (Outdoor Life Network) called “Stroud... Off The Grid”. This new and captivating show will highlight Les’ family's move to their 150 acre bush lot with solar power, rain harvesting systems, and many new technologies for living an energy-conscious and self sustaining life.“Stroud…Off the Grid” episode 1 will premiere in the beginning of Spring 2006

This is the guy who does Survivorman. If they do it right there should be a lot of good ideas for the homeowner. I'll be watching it.”

“SALT LAKE CITY - President Bush's budget proposal calls for raising more than $1 billion over five years by selling off public lands deemed to have little scenic, recreational or resource value, drawing criticism from environmental groups.

U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management officials say the sale of parcels, including isolated tracts that can be hard to manage, would allow them to operate more efficiently and generate new revenue for operations.







Here is Part of Utah's Labyrinth Canyon, a section of which is seen here along the Green River, is up for auction as a drilling site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Is this a picture of land that has "little scenic value"?
last edited: 2/12/06 2:45:12 PM”

“Kenya's flower farms flourish

Low wages?

Critics of the industry accuse flower farmers of exploiting cheap labour, harming the environment and workers' health with toxins.


The Kenya Human Rights Commission (KHRC), a non-governmental organisation, held a conference to highlight these issues ahead of Valentine's Day.

It says some workers get as little as 2,000 shillings ($25) a month. Gross domestic product per head is $391 in Kenya.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1820515.stm


A thorn on every rose for Kenya's flower industry

http://www.fao.org/english/newsroom/news/2002/3789-en.html


http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/products_roses.htm”

“http://www.mnforsustain.org/grant_l_new_american_century.htm#How Few Is Too Few

In my view, the future world will be one of many fewer people, where public lands can easily be expanded and this is as it should be.

The remote and small tracts of public land should cost nothing to maintain, they are just there and should remain so.

Many feel that 'growthmania' is normal and should continue indefinitely

but if you think about it:

Whether it be

cemeteries
pavement
abandoned cars and manufactured houses
abandoned shopping centers
landfills
rooftops
and of course poisoned soil that will not grow anything for many centuries

or whatever semipermanent conversion of the surface of the world

the present trends would have the world covered with any of each of these things in only a few more generations.
last edited: 2/15/06 8:13:15 AM”

“The goal of the current administration seems to be to crack the 'sacred egg' of public ownership (because most the land they say they are proposing to sell would be desired by almost no one at any price) so precipitating a wave of liquidation of the public lands.
last edited: 2/15/06 8:29:29 AM”

“GREAT IDEA LONE!!!! Yeah I want you to take a small trip to the once "PEOPLE's PARADISE" In the Old Soviet Union and check out how well the old Socialists managed the land. You will find areas of permanent destruction of nature on a level you cannot imagine....

Want to reduce the population of the world, you first.”

“OH...I remember when the debate about "cattle" was raging. The wackos wanted to reduce the number of cattle and thereby reduce the "emissions". There were two lines of thought (if you can be generous and call it thought)
1. Put Condoms on the bulls
2. Give birth control pills to the cows.

The decision was to go with #1 the condom routine. It was discoverd that if you give the cows birth control pills they would stop lactating...thereby rendering them "UDDERLY, Useless..."”

“Well less than half of land in the USA is public land with the public lands serving roles such as healthy watershed and overall ecosystem buffering and providing a signifigant portion of the nations renewable resource, timber, critical functions which would not be provided in a completely free market.

Well more than half of the land and generally the best land is available for the practice of free enterprise.

In terms of the world's number of people, likely each of us will pass on, the question is will each of us arrogantly more than replace ourselves, so further burdening a stressed world, by having more than one child (or 2 for a couple)?

Like has been stated before, the old USSR was far from being the definition of 'environmental friendly', in any way.

In terms of cows, sure, kill them all (and the rest of the domestic vermin as well), they are not needed.
last edited: 2/15/06 9:22:33 AM”

“I like option #3. Kill the cow and eat it.”

“But Lone....it was the perfection of Public Control of everything....meaning no person had an individual interest in taking care of the enviornment....
I think you will find when there is no personal interest there is no responsibility and without responsibility for something....it is someone else's problem”

“So they say they can make a billion dollars selling some public land to help with the budget problem (I view as public land, not government land)

to do what?

Spend a quarter billion dollars to further disect the GSMNP?

Spend billions in federal administration and subsidy expenses to ravage ANWR?

Why not just further lower the tax rates for the rich in this country? That is their answer to budget deficits, is it not?
last edited: 2/15/06 9:39:37 AM”

“A friend of mine married a Russian gal several years ago. One of the things she brought with here was some old Russian cartoons that were made in the 80s. Wow, were they boring; very little humor! However, one thing she pointed out was that they were full of very subtle political messages against the Soviet's unrivaled destruction of the environment and hope in communism. Once I picked up on that theme they became a little more entertaining.
last edited: 2/15/06 9:45:10 AM”

“The Federal grazing fee for Western public lands managed by the BLM and the Forest Service will be $1.56 per animal unit month (AUM) in 2006, down from $1.79 in 2005.

From the BLM website.”

“http://www.un.org/esa/population/pu.../longrange2.htm

This site has many informative tables for those concerned with finding a wild place to walk.

A particularly fascinating table details what would result if recent growth rates by nation were maintained until the year 2300 (about the time when the series Star Trek is supposedly set).

The world would have 134 trillion people with Uganda alone having 19 trillion but with Russia being reduced to just one million.

Obviously, this could not totally happen but this table does help illustrate just how weird these times are and gives a whole new meaning to 'Growthmania'.
last edited: 2/16/06 7:32:19 PM”

“Now THAT gives me the willies!!!”

“Imagine work traffic.”

“I can't open the link?”

“The link will not open for me either now.

Suffice it to say that a 4.7% annual increase would result in about a one million times increase in 300 years.
last edited: 2/18/06 7:13:37 PM”

“http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/longrange2/longrange2.htm

Seems to work now.
last edited: 2/18/06 7:33:25 PM”

“That would equate to two teaspoons of gas per person per year.”

“We need more wars, less public health and more plagues. All very effective historical means of population control. Would that make you happier lonesurveyor?”

“humm... for a effective campaign we need someone whos ok with mass murder...since hussain is in prison perhaps bush could fill in untill saddam regains power?”

“Human encroachment ("overpopulation") is responsible for many viruses emerging "out of the forests"

HIV
Ebola
Marbug

To name a few. Natural population checks are not easy to stop.”

“This year 2300 prediction reminds me of one of my favorite passages from Mark Twain's work (in this case, Life on the Mississippi)

In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
last edited: 2/19/06 4:27:12 PM”

“I think no one wishes for rising death rates from famine, plagues or wars

but the famines and plagues are inevitable if current birth rates continue in the world and long before the year 2300.

It is curious on 'Google Earth' to check out the Amazon area of South America where it is very evident that roads and clearings are rapidly extending thru the jungle there.
last edited: 2/22/06 7:34:54 AM”

“This is SOOO COOL, you know Guys I am old enough to remember when Paul Erlich (Earth First leader who LIVES IN A HOUSE MADE OF CALIFORNIA REDWOOD) claimed we would all be starving by 2000.....”

“Are you sure Paul Erlich is affiliated with Earth First, much less the leader?

He did write the Population Bomb and attempt to shock the populace into recognizing the inevitable.

With an unsustainable orgy of fossil fuel harvesting and burning, the predictions in the Population Bomb have been postponed for awhile but imo many of those alive now will survive long enough to see the predictions fulfill.

The higher they go, the further they will fall and the more difficult it will be to rise again.
last edited: 2/22/06 7:56:29 AM”

“Ya know

the scenario that has played out from the predictions of Paul Erlich are straight out of the formula for a Hollywood disaster movie.

Initially, some scientist discovers an impending problem

be it:

- a dam above the town is about to fail
- a volcano above the town is about to erupt
- an crustal fault under the town is about to quake.

The scientist rushes to warn those to be affected of the dangers.

The public with their sense of self-preservation listen and respond to the advice, sometimes hysterically for the sake of the movie.

Everyone waits in an evacuated location tensely and nothing happens when the moment of predicted calamity passes.

Some blow-hard, head up his ***, Chamber of Commerce type steps forward and states:

"That scientist is a kook, doesn't know what he talking about. Nothings going to happen, all is well, remain calm, return to your lives as before!" (the female Governor of Washington played this part in the real life Mount St. Helens disaster in 1980).

Then, just as a sense of complacency settles in ..., well, you know.
last edited: 2/22/06 8:48:44 AM”

“Look a wack job and a hypocritical wack job is a wack job. Sorry but I don't think that little of the human race.
Most importantly I DO not think that the only solution is SHARED MISERY. If that is the only solution that you see as plausible, go get in the car, run a pipe from the exhaust pipe to the window. Turn on the car and end it all.”

“Who thinks little of the human race?

The whole point of the preservation of a viable natural world is maintain an opportunity for the benefit, health, happiness and sense of well being of everyone.
last edited: 2/22/06 9:16:02 AM”

“http://www.heartland.org/IssueSuiteTopic.cfm?issId=2&istId=284

Seems to be the source of many replies here at TT.”

“My 4 year old neice loves animals, particularly sea mammals like whales and dolphins. She has many books on the subject and loves to watch television shows about the sea.

My neice and her family attended church on Sunday. The priest held a small sermon for the children whereby he had the kids come up to the pulpit. The sermon was about the ten commandments. He asked the children if they could tell him the commandments. One child said "Do not steal". Another said "Obey you parents". My little neice piped up and said "Don't kill the whales."”

“Of course, there are more than 2 possible views on this issue other than the extremes:

Dominant worldview supports view that - Deep ecology supports view that..

Humans are dominant over nature - Humans live in harmony with nature


Natural environment and species are resources for humans - All nature has intrinsic worth, regardless of human needs


A growing human population with a rising standard of living is possible - A stable human population living simply


Earth's resources are unlimited - Earth's resources are limited and must be used carefully


Ever-higher technology brings progress and solutions - Appropriate technology must be used with respect for the Earth

Emphasizes material progress - Emphasizes spiritual and ethical progress

Strong central government and global economy - Local control, organized according to ecosystems or bioregions (bioregionalism)
last edited: 3/21/06 7:03:17 AM”

“Hey I agree, for Christmas I gave my nephew (his mother is a greenpeace supporter...not that there is anything wrong with that) a little baby harp seal and a bat. He loves it. (LOL)”

“http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060320/sc_nm/environment_diversity_dc

"In effect, we are currently responsible for the sixth major extinction event in the history of earth, and the greatest since the dinosaurs disappeared, 65 million years ago," said the 92-page Global Biodiversity Outlook 2 report.

Apart from the disappearance of the dinosaurs, the other "Big Five" extinctions were about 205, 250, 375 and 440 million years ago. Scientists suspect that asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions or sudden climate shifts may explain the five.

So, Is this new round of extinctions completely natural or by Intelligent Design?
last edited: 3/21/06 1:57:47 PM”

“....I gave my nephew.....a little baby harp seal and a bat. He loves it. (LOL)”
XL400236

LMAO
Now that is just plain evil. ;-)”

“What's #7?

6th place out of 6 is not too bad.”

“The current extinction event is the 6th, odd how they worded that statement.

Yet, those with a Dominant worldview still think:

"Natural environment and species are resources for humans"

never stopping to realize such a drastic occurrance might impact people as well, ya' reckon.
last edited: 3/21/06 2:08:18 PM”