What's an Environmentalist to do?

“Could you at least put you pants back on when you post that Nigal?”

“He's being "environmentally proficient"....”

“Hell no! Now that I know our time is so damn limited I'm taking off the boxers too! I'm going to finish out my days as the happy monkeys do; sitting on a hot rock beating off 24/7.”

“Of course, more crops are now produced on no more land than was farmed 50 years ago.

Ways have been found to temporarily essentially turn cheap and abundant oil and natural gas into greater crop yields thru intensive mechanization, fertilization and the application of herbicides and insecticides.

These increases are near their peak (never were what I would call geometric) and will soon fall as energy is no longer so abundant and cheap and as great stretches of land become worn out. Look at northwestern North Dakota for example, for the better part of the 20th. Century, it allowed some of the better wheat production in the world but no amount of oil, fertilizers and mechanization can now result in viable production there with the same becoming true all down thru the western Great Plains to Texas into Mexico.

Some regions will remain viable longer than others but no new land is being created and there is an increasing loss of viability.

The game is not over, so Paul Erhlich did not lose in his forecasts, he deliberately stated the bad would happen sooner than later to start to prompt a positive reaction. Saying Erhlich was wrong is like saying since The Big Earthquake in California has not happened yet, therefore, it never will!

But heck, why not enjoy whats here as best we can while we can. I plan to even though I am convinced the world is getting very crowded.
last edited: 7/05/06 2:54:17 PM”

“"...since The Big Earthquake in California has not happened yet, then, it never will!”
by the prophet of doom:
lonesurveyor
2:49:45 PM
7/05/06

lol, j/k”

“guess i'm gonna stick my hand in this hornets nest...

ok, every one has a reason that the world is going to die in our childrens lifetime: over population, polution, cfc's, VX gas, fossil fuels, strip mining, strippers, logging, jerking off, what ever. (their out there folks)

My question is this: What do you do about it?
The world is over crowded. Well lets start killing off the weaker members of the population, and the less fortunate. That way when we get down to the last barrel of oil, the last ear of corn, and the last undiseased piece of a$$ on the planet the only ones left will be the strongest richest MF'ers ever, and they will put on one hell of show to get their last "whatever".
Do we become a comunist planet, and rashon everything out and tell people how many children they can produce, and how many goods they can consume every year?



Whats your cure?”

“Whats your cure?”
meangreen
4:36:13 PM
7/05/06

I say we start taking the warning labels off of things.”

“ya but the lawsuits gotta go too! LOL!
It'd be a start!”

“I'm looking for the Flat Earth Society? Is this it?”

“I, uh, think I missed that one Nimble... huh?”

“Lester Brown has been showing a deficiency in grain production since the 70's, ever since he came back from India. He's talking about the food supply for humans (wheat, corn, rice) and has nothing to do with biofuels.

It's "not a big deal". The problem is not in production but in distribution.”

“He is, as has been noted, probably one of the most respected persons in the World for these issues.”

“Creation science? What the #&%!$ is that?”

“Another way to attempt to marginalize people is to label them part of the "fringe element."

It's interesting, since Jesus was part of a so called fringe element and so were a lot of other important people.

Personally, I'm attracted to the fringe. If it's mainstream, it's probably not good for you. Avoid the mainstream at all costs.”

“nimblefoot, you ain't lookin for the flat earth society, you're lookin for the flat ass society... ;p
last edited: 7/05/06 7:03:47 PM”

“"Whats your cure?”

We adapt. Just like we humans have done since the beginning of time. The earth is warming. That is undeniable. Is it warming at the rate that we’re heading for assured destruction like Algore says within 10 years? Hell no. The earth’s temps go up and down naturally. Like I said before, go back and look at the predictions that were made 20 years ago and compare it to where we are now. They have been yelling “doom and gloom” for decades now.”

“Whether the weather warms, cools or stays fairly benign

increasingly severe shortages of food, clean water, housing, energy, wildlife/wildland and general loss of freedom seems likely to typify the coming decades.

There will be adaptation to a world of impaired fecundity, sure, with the survivors adapting to a world of many fewer people with the many fewer not necassarily resulting from choice but as a natural consequence of the shortages.
last edited: 7/06/06 9:36:45 AM”

“That about hits the nail on the head, lonesurveyor.

Things might be tempered by a change to other forms of energy, and mining old landfills for raw materials (metals, plastics), but a population crunch will happen sooner or later. Going way out on a limb, if we perfect space travel within our own solar system in the next few hundred years, we may be able to mine other planets and moons for some of our needs. I think one of the moons of Saturn is almost completely water (in ice form).”

“I went to the moon once.....





oh wait....I think it was just and acid trip.”

“Chili, that must have been Feb. 1967, I think I remember you.”

“I was on one of the later missions.”

“We adapt. Just like we humans have done since the beginning of time.
Nigal
8:20:04 AM
7/06/06



All the more reason to eat people.


Juuuust like chicken. Mmmm.”

“SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!”

“ROFLMAO!!!!!”

“Conventional wisdom suggests that because of technology and trade, human carrying capacity is infinitely expandable and therefore virtually irrelevant to demography and development planning. By contrast, this article argues that ecological carrying capacity remains the fundamental basis for demographic accounting. A fundamental question for ecological economics is whether remaining stocks of natural capital are adequate to sustain the anticipated load of the human economy into the next century. Since mainstream (neoclassical) models are blind to ecological structure and function, they cannot even properly address this question. The present article therefore assesses the capital stocks, physical flows, and corresponding ecosystems areas required to support the economy using "ecological footprint" analysis. This approach shows that most so-called "advanced" countries are running massive unaccounted ecological deficits with the rest of the planet. Since not all countries can be net importers of carrying capacity, the material standards of the wealthy cannot be extended sustainably to even the present world population using prevailing technology. In this light, sustainability may well depend on such measures as greater emphasis on equity in international relationships, significant adjustments to prevailing terms of trade, increasing regional self-reliance, and policies to stimulate a massive increase in the material and energy efficiency of economic activity.

http://www.dieoff.com/page110.htm
last edited: 7/07/06 6:13:59 AM”

“I LOVE the respect for the ability of the Human Spirit to exceed expectations I read here (LOL)...HMM a while back we had a similar idea about "the ability of the human to overcome challenges....."

"Inventions reached their limit long ago, and I see no hope for further development. "
Julius Frontinus,

Guess when that was said?

Most Liberals look at the problem and think "the Government Cannot solve this ergo it is unsolvable"
I prefer to follow the motto

There are no great limits to growth because there are no limits of human intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
(OKAY GUESS WHO SAID THAT?)[i]
last edited: 7/07/06 6:34:26 AM”

“Someone from the patent office said something like that about 100 years ago, XL. No joke.”

“Tech...the first quote is from the FIRST CENTURY (Roman administrator). The negative look at how far we have come and do not see how we can continue. Those of us who are positive see there is NO LIMIT to the ability of HUMANS to overcome their limits. (By the way the second quote is Ronald Reagan)”

“There will continue to be innovation, invention, ingenuity and attempts by those who are able to be secure and comfortable.

But, security and comfort are not possible for all or even most of the current 6.5 billion and would be even less possible for the expected 9 billion by 2050.

If and when the world is scaled back (I am not suggesting a government mandate, scaled back by market and natural forces) to a reasonable number of people which those who study such things place at 1/3 to maybe 1/10 or less of the current numbers then there would be the possibility of a sustainable civilization

because, like it or not, people are animals who live in a natural world. It would require the resources and efforts of thousands to allow the ability of a few to live in a non-natural situation, like on the space-station.”

“OKAAAAY...thank you for that POSITIVE view...now Lone, you know that this is NOT a space station. If we grow to large NATURE will take care of herself.
Sadly your view is typical of the defeatist attitude of the left. The fear of failure or the FEELING of inferiority breeds a hatered of those who have challenged the peak and have obtained the unbelievable. It is much easier to be jealous of the successful and demand the GOVERNMENT hamstring them than to sit there and watch others become successful while you lead an empty life.
How many times do we hear of a successful person saying "Its not fair" ...um about never. Life is NEVER fair. But I live by the belief that I would rather FAIL in the attempt than die in a chair at 80 with a room full of WHAT IFs.

The pursuit of LIFE is not a goal but a JOURNEY. Can we support Trillions on this planet? Don't know, but I can quote too many pessimists who are now disproven. I want to remain an optimist.
To the question, "HOW can you do it?' I answer "I never stopped believing I could."”

“There are stories of pirates of the sea who after plundered some sea-side village of all its wealth, food and liquor

set back to sea and sailed into the night consuming the liquor and so jubilant they decided to celebrate with a bon-fire on their ship

each urged the other to make the fire bigger and bigger until some of the not-so-bright were actually tearing off boards from the ship to add to the fire.

The fire was extinquished before dawn, when the ship slipped below the surface of the water.”

“There are stories of Elvis in a UFO impregnating Trailer trash too....but I don't necessarily believe it.”

“Capt. Dubya on the good ship 'Imperialist' after the pillage of Bagdad?”

“There is real progress to report this week: The Bush Administration is backing off its proposal to sell off national forest and other public lands. Mark Rey, former lobbyist for the timber industry now in charge of National Forests for the Administration, has noted that most of the 130,000 emails received about the proposal opposed the sell-off. He did allow, however, that it could be reintroduced next year.


The Senate has restored some funding to the Land and Water Conservation Fund. And protections for our national parks are moving in a positive direction. If you took part in these campaigns, give yourself some credit!


I hope you can find time this month to stroll out some evening and look up at the sky, remembering that wonderful quote from Walt Whitman: "I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey-work of the stars."

I got this email from the Wilderness Society.”

“Well if the spread of Freedom, public improvements, end of Saddam's rape rooms and opening of schools are pillage....Damn maybe we need to invade New Orleans”

“Its curious, after reading Sarge's lamentations awhile back about millions dying in the world each year of malaria because of what he considered the unreasonable ban of the insecticide DDT

that today, on the Yahoo news page, can be found a 2 minute video/audio talk by Bono stating that many of the millions who die of malaria each year could be protected from the mosquitoes if they simply had a cheap mosquito-net around their beds when they sleep.

Bono has become a spokesperson for the issues of disease and poverty, particularly in Africa.

But, Yahoo also had a story today about the corruption involved in the relief monies that went to Aceh in Indonesia after the tsunami.
last edited: 7/07/06 3:22:28 PM”

“How can an expert be so wrong in so many ways?

"The driving force behind the environmental movement is the idea that nature is a value regardless of its utility to human beings. Nature's wonders are to be preserved rather than modified, which is considered destructive. Environmentalism's manipulation of fear relative to the dynamics of capitalism is a technique that has been used for hundreds of years to attack capitalism. Environmentalists concentrate on the dynamics of man's transformation of nature.

In the 1970s, manipulating the public fears included the scare scenarios of global cooling, and nuclear energy; in recent decades it is the fear of global warming, acid rain and the ozone layer. The environmentalists' solutions are preservation, conservation, less energy, less population, and less industrialization. The environmentalists' alleged love of nature is a smoke screen for their loathing of capitalism, as revealed in their response to Saddam Hussein's torching of the Kuwait oil fields -- probably the greatest man-made environmental disaster in human history. Compare the environmentalists' response to that crisis to those of the Exxon oil spill in Alaska in 1989, where nature quickly restored itself.

Mankind's mistakes are small compared to the environmental destruction caused by natural forces. Recently, we have been reminded of that by earthquakes and tsunami events. The benefits of capitalism , for both humankind and nature, have led to a global population that today has the longest life expectancy in history."

http://www.northcarolinaconservative.com/index.php?
last edited: 7/28/06 5:37:55 AM”

“"Compare the environmentalists' response to that crisis to those of the Exxon oil spill in Alaska in 1989, where nature quickly restored itself."

But wait. Are not hundreds of fishing boats and their crews still idle around Prince William Sound because the fish stocks have not been able to recover at an economic loss of tens of millions of dollars per year?
last edited: 7/28/06 6:13:05 AM”

“Lone I thought Al Gore and his buds were telling us that was because we had killed the oceans...Ted Danson said so. Since he is an ACTOR he is an expert right????


What is an enviornmentalist to do? Go get a six pack, get some nice music. Take the hose off your vacuum cleaner run it from the tail pipe to the window of the car.....”

“No sweeping generalization here, XL.

Specifically, the natural systems of that place affected by the Exxon Valdez oilspill have only somewhat recovered so far and the recovery has not been completely natural for hundreds of millions of dollars were spent in an effort to cleanup that site.

I have no regard for anything Ted Danson says, other than for its comedic value. He and his equally famous wife are said to have some very weird spiritual practices.
last edited: 7/28/06 6:35:53 AM”

“Yup, acid rain doesn’t exist. The 30% of the ponds and lakes in the Adirondacks that are considered acid dead, that were productive trout waters 100 years ago, is all made up.”

“But Lumber....there is still no consensus (from people NOT GETTING GOVERNMENT FUNDING) about the REAL cause.”

“The then Senator from NC, 'Jester' Helms conducted an interview on Mount Mitchell in plain site of thousands of dead Frazer Fir trunks which had died due to being weakened by acid rain and then attacked by pests

and declared he could not see any damage from acid rain and therefore it was not a problem.”

“I am not making any statements about the destruction of the fishing grounds in the area, but many of those fishing boats were involved in the clean-up so much of that money spent for clean-up did go into the local economy. Another commercial venture created up there as a result of the spill is all the tourist boats running grizzly watchers up the coast to the Park where the "Grizzly Man" was eaten by his friends. Many of the captains of the fishing boats involved in the clean-up was surprised to see all the bears on the beach and knew they could make a buck off of it. Now I doubt the value of hauling tourons up and down the coast makes up the loss of teh fishing industry, but it is an interesting side affect of the spill.”

“Lone...you state they were weakend by acid rain and destroyed by insects.....don't know about where you are but we have a pine beetle that can run rampant with or without acid rain.

Now if a plant or critter etc is unable to evolve....wouldn't we be playing God to interfere with Natural Selection? I mean evolution means some things live or die...so who are we to tell nature what things are supposed to survive? I just remember how P.O.'ed Mother Nature got over the whole Butter/Margarine thing.
last edited: 7/28/06 6:52:34 AM”

“oh yeah, IF there are "hundreds of fishing boats and their crews still idle around Prince William Sound" that pretty stupid for the owners of these boats. After all, they are BOATS and perfectly capable of relocating to another area.”

“The high mountains of WNC act somewhat like a sponge, often cloud cloaked, with typical wind flows from the Midsouth and the Midwest, areas of much vehicle traffic and coal fired power plants.

The resulting acidic nature of the fog, clouds and rain, from sulphur and nitrous oxides, and buildup of said in the soils on the high peaks is well documented and is not a natural thing. Evolution is not a quick process and when conditions suddenly change (50 years is sudden, biologically speaking) at any site, things just die.
last edited: 7/28/06 7:07:21 AM”

“I thought it was a bug that was killing the trees in the mountains”

“It seems interesting that acid decreased only after the Clean Air Act amendments of 1990 limited the emissions of coal-burning power plants.
The acidity of Brooktrout Lake has even dropped to the level that fish can live in it again.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13049814/?GT1=8211”

“Um....Bummer? Could we get a GIANT ROLAIDS to reduce acid buildup? It worked for Roger Staubach.”