Massachusetts to allow gay marriage

“"My argument is that marriage is a union between men and women as defined through centuries. End of argument. Period. I don’t make procreation or any other argument about it. It’s just the way I’ve seen the issue"."

Who said it?






















John Kerry
Sep 16, 2003: (Kerry's Conundrum by Chris Bull in The Advocate)”

“My personal opinion (not that anyone cares)... I am not gay, nor have I been, nor will I ever be. HOWEVER I think it is a long time coming. I have very close friends whom are gay and more committed then many straight couples I know. I feel bad for the couples who have been together for a long time and don't get the same rights as the rest of us. I support it and say more power to them. Just my honest opinion”

“Religious Leaders Assail Amendment on Gay Marriage

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK NY Times

Officials of several religious organizations, including the Presbyterian, Lutheran and Episcopal churches, sent an open letter to Congress yesterday opposing the proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.

"Although we have differing opinions on rights for same-sex couples, we believe the Federal Marriage Amendment reflects a fundamental disregard for individual civil rights and ignores differences among our nation's many religious traditions," the letter said. The United Church of Christ and the Unitarian Universalist Association, which recognize same-sex marriages, also signed the letter. So did representatives of the Anti-Defamation League, the Union for Reform Judaism, the liberal Alliance of Baptists and the Quakers.

continued...”

“Well, the christofascist scumbags managed to play up homophobia in Missouri, as we voted to amend the constitution to deprive gays marriage rights yesterday.

Christians suck. Big time.”

“Yeah Mutt, but at least they got you a nice little war in Iraq for your geo-political edification.”

“Those were the so-called neoconservatives, Mark, not the christofascists.”

“Oh, my bad!

But those folks are allies, non?”

“Not necessarily. Their ideologies differ on domestic issues.”

“I just caught a little of the story on NPR this morning. Didn’t they let the people of Missouri decide this one?”

“Yeah, but it sounds like "tyranny of the majority".

That is allowing the majority to take away rights that they enjoy from a minority.”

“Nigal, yes, and it won by over a 2:1 margin.”

“So what we have is a clear demonstration of democracy in action. The issue was brought up, voted on and is now being acted upon by the people’s government and the state is now expressing it’s freedom of amending their own constitution.

I don’t agree with the decision but I do believe in democracy and a state’s choice.”

“Yes, I'm not complaining about the process, I'm complaining about the stupidity of christian homophobia. F*ck christianity.”

“How is it the christian’s fault? I’m sure their were Christian groups out there pounding the pavement for their side just like their were gays out pounding the pavement for their side. This too is a part of the democratic process. Or is it the Christian voters that suck?”

“Christianity is the root of modern homophobia. Certainly there's a natural revulsion that sways people, but that's been ameliorated somewhat by educating people of the civil rights aspects of marriage. Christianity is by far the biggest force behind homophobia. There were many, many more christian scumbags pushing for this amendment than there were gay activists opposing it.

When the constitution starts to limit the rights of citizens instead of limiting the powers of government, you know something stupid is up. That something stupid is christofascism.”

“Yes, homosexuality is probably the number one sin to Christians. Most religious people in America are Christians so it should be no surprise that their values are sometimes predominant. It also has to do with how homosexuality is viewed by different people. To the open-minded person homosexuality is a natural thing and not a choice so it is right on the same level as civil right s of minorities such as blacks. To the average Christian homosexuality is a choice and is not on the same level as other civil rights. We also have to understand that most Christians believe in the national guilt/punishment thing that befell Israel in the old days. They think that as soon as gay marriage is allowed that the country will be struck down by hell fire. Utterly wrong.”

“You mean I actually agree with you two on something?

Gee, I wonder if this will help me shed the 'blissninny' moniker?


Nah, Mutt isn't letting me off the hook that easily! :)”

“Good points, Nigal. Hardcore christofascists believe with all their heart that homosexuality is a capital crime. No joke - I've argued with many on other, more conservative, forums.”

“No, never. And that's blissninny BUNNY. :)”

“Sorry treebeard, you'll be a blissninny until you shed your left-footed foreign policy perspective. ;)”

“NEVER!







You're too much fun this way!”

“"Good points, Nigal. Hardcore christofascists believe with all their heart that homosexuality is a capital crime. No joke - I've argued with many on other, more conservative, forums."

The thing that makes it all so damn funny is this. To a Christian all sin is equal. If you look upon a woman and lust for her in your heart it is the same as committing adultery. If you get drunk it is the same as raping someone. Yet porn is rampant and there is a bar on every corner. Where’s the outrage and pushes for laws? And ironically enough when a Christians stops off at Ryan’s Steakhouse and they gorge on the buffet they are being just as bad as…homosexuals! If they were truly honest and loving they would turn this around and say, “If I can love my fellow man and accept them even though they may struggle with sins, then I can do the same with the homosexual.”.

The movement of Judaism I follow does not condone homosexuality and they do recognize it as a sin they treat it as any other sin. It’s between the person and G-d. At my local Chassidic Synagogue there is a guy there who has painted nails, his eyebrows are perfectly tweezed and he is very effeminate. It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots. But he is a loved member of the synagogue and he is not condemned or shunned. And we are talking CHASSIDICS, the black hat wearing ultra-orthodox Jews here.

This is the stance that I take.”

“Homosexuality is the number one sin to Xians???

Soooooo, is murder number two?

Hey Treebeard, ya blissninny...>8^P~~~”

“Nigal wears a black hat ? ?

I KNEW it!!”

“Yes Mark..it's called abortion. [said while wrapping my newest pipe bomb in electrical tape]”

“Homosexuals have abortions??

Did I miss something here?”

“Yep, right up the ole whazoo!!!”

“Sorry tree, does this clear things up?

"Soooooo, is murder number two?"

"Yes Mark..it's called abortion."”

“"Nigal wears a black hat ? ?

No but I do wear a blue beeny.”

“I was taught the unforgivable sin is being made aware of the grace (or will) of God and refusing God.

In short, being presented the Christian view and choosing Atheism or another non-christain belief structure instead.”

“As a Christian, I am taught that God holds my sins to be as abhorrent as anyone else’s. From my Bible studies, I’m not convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

I do know that treating other people like dirt and judging them is a sin. I am ashamed of my so-called Christian brothers and sisters for their bigotry on this issue.”

“There are two issues in the marriage of homosexuals that are conflated. One is the 'moral issue' the other is equality of citizen rights/treatment in the United States. I think the Constitution addresses this. The Church and State shall remain separate.

This from a Christian.”

“Gee... homosexual marriage is only legal in only a small handful of countries on this planet, and it has be taboo in nearly all societies since the beginning of time, WAY before Christianity ever came into being. Even as we speak only a half dozen countries even allow homosexual marriage. And now of all of a sudden this is the scourge of modern day American Christians? Come on. Your anti-Christian bias is blatantly shining through and is not based on any shred of logic or reason. Unless, of course, you think 99% of the nations on Planet Earth are Christian theocracies.”

“No Buck - You and Osama are in complete agreement on this one.”

“It would be interesting to see what the effects of same sex marriage has had on those countries that do allow it. Any negative effects? Anyone trying to slip other things like marrying their pet, sister or multiple wives in there? Have there been any effect on the economy due to new insurance riders?”

“Hi Nigal! As for Christian's eating too much being the same "sin" as someone who kills someone, that's not what I read in the Bible nor do I know any Christians who believe this way. Yes, it is a sin to lust, and as Jesus said if you lust after a woman you have committed adultery in your heart, but that's still different than actually following through and assualting and raping her in an alley. If you're pissed at someone and thoughts of bodily harm enters your mind, that's still different than killing them and hiding the body. There are levels of rewards and punishments. All unforgiven sin will separate you from God just the same (God cannot be in the presence of sin), but there are levels of sin and consequences. If you feel differently, and I know some folks do, that's okay, it's just how I read the Bible and it's how I've been taught in various Christian churches.”

“Your anti-Christian bias is blatantly shining through and is not based on any shred of logic or reason.

You wish. Before the agricultural revolution, when the world was constantly on the brink of starvation, and the fate of humanity was dependent on high rates of reproduction, there was a secular moral argument against homosexuality. It was bad for the species. However, now humanity isn't dependent on high birth rates. There are no other secular reasons to oppose homosexuality. The world's bigotry is largely based on and supported by religion - not just christianity, although I single it out because in the U.S. it's by far the most powerful religion.

Really, if you can give me one - just one - secular reason why homosexuality is immoral, I'll grant you have a point. Until then, you remain a christofascist bigot.”

“Mutt, you mean to tell me that all throughout time and history and civilization, homosexuality was taboo merely because of birth rates? Ha ha! Mutt, ask your question to the vast majority of secular societies on Planet Earth that ban homosexual marriage before you blame this on Christianity. Yes, even China is a bastion of Christian morality which is why the largest populous nation still bans homosexual marriage. Darn Christians anywho.”

“One secular reason, buck. Surely that won't be too hard for you...”

“Mutt, are you asking me to defend the policies of the world's secular governments? I'm flattered you think so highly of me.”

“No, I'm calling you out: either give me a secular reason or admit that your bigotry is based on religion (or, just as lame, emotion).”

“Mutt, you're the one making the accusation about Christianity... show me how Christianity (or religion) is keeping the vast majority of secular societies on earth today to ban homosexual marriage? Are all these secular nations considered religious theocracies? If you can't back up your own anti-Christian accusations on this issue, there is no need for me to defend the nations of the secular world and their continued defiance of allowing homosexual marriage. Unless Christofacists secretly rule these African, Asian, European, South American, and North American societies, I see no basis in your charges. And now it's up to me, Buck Forester from Trail Talk, to defend the civil decisions of the nations of the world and give you reasons why they ban homosexual marriages in their countries? Okey dokey artichokey.”

“When in doubt, shuck and jive.


Just admitt it already, buck.

You'll be no less of a person for it.

IN fact, you'll be better because you'll be leaning on your faith, which can take the hit.

PS - We've already had this conversation a million times on this board, with and without you, but you still don't answer the questions, or bring anything new, rather the same circle jerk.

Stand up and give insight to people who ask. It's the leasty you can do-ie.”

“laqtis... homosexual marriage is banned in the vast majority of secular socities in this world... if you wanna blame this on Christianity, tell me on what basis? Obviously you won't answer because you can't, then you'll try and turn it around, just like Mutt, and blame all the homosexual-marriage banning throughout the nations of the world on American Christians. I read ya.”

“China bans a lot of things such as democracy and public dissent.

They are a very conservative society.

Don't rock the boat.....whoa!!!!”

“MarkO, so you're suggesting China, the most populous and staunchly anti-religious nation on earth, bans homosexual marriage based on religion? Damn those American Christians.”

“The world is filled with religious people, so your "secular state" strawman is fatuous nonsense. Don't insult my intelligence.

You sure are putting a lot of effort into dodging the question. If you put some of that effort into rational thought, maybe you could have a legitimate rebuttal. But really, drop the secular state nonsense, because that is not what I'm asking about. I'm asking if Buck Forester can think of a secular reason to consider homosexuality immoral - not the reasons why nations have banned gay marriage.”

“The word homophobia cracks me up! It's funny how quik people are to use that word. Phobia means fear. I got news for you Mutt, just because people don't like homosexuals does'nt mean they fear them or are afraid of becomeing one, and no you do'nt hafta be a christian to dislike the filth of homosexuality. Hey! here's an idea, try comming out of the closet and stop useing chistians as your emotional punching bag, be proud of what you are. It does'nt mean I'm going to like you, but hey quit useing christianity as an excuss for your oppression.”

“MarkO, so you're suggesting China, the most populous and staunchly anti-religious nation on earth, bans homosexual marriage based on religion?

Yeah, Moaist moral code was heavily influenced by non-rational ideologies. Again, don't insult our intelligence.”

“just because people don't like homosexuals does'nt mean they fear them or are afraid of becomeing one, and no you do'nt hafta be a christian to dislike the filth of homosexuality.

Christofascists are AFRAID that homosexuals will destroy marriage and society. If that's not a phobia, then I don't know what is.

Really, why even trot out this tired old cliche? Even most of the hardcore christofascists have dropped it.”