Massachusetts to allow gay marriage

“God made Adam and Eve...not Adrienne and Eve.

Enuff said.

Flame away.”

“See Pedxing's post above. There will be negative attention to ANY negative stereotype. Does that mean that those people affeted by this stereotype should not have kids or get married?

Ridiculous. Don't have kids. they'll be teased. Moronic.”

“Actually what I said jmitch is the proliferation of gay acceptance, not gays themselves. Vitually every society contains a gay element, some tolerate it, very few embrace it.”

“God made all the homosexuals in the world, too, according to the Christian belief of omniscience.

Hmm... And who are YOU to judge, anyway?”

“Another clip from the boswell brief:

II. CHILDREN RAISED BY GAY OR LESBIAN PARENTS DO NOT DIFFER PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SOCIALLY FROM CHILDREN RAISED BY HETEROSEXUAL PARENTS.

Back to Table of Contents
Research indicates that the sexual orientation of parents is not a predictive factor in the psychological and social development of their children. In the last two decades, a number of studies have been conducted on children of gay or lesbian parents. First, contrary to sometimes expressed fears, the research shows that children raised by, or otherwise regularly involved with, gay or lesbian parents are no more likely themselves to be homosexual than children raised by, or regularly involved with, only heterosexual parents.[29] Further, as researchers concluded from a review of the scientific literature: children raised in gay or lesbian households are just as likely to be well-adjusted as children raised in heterosexual households.[30]

”

“Unless you want to dispute the obvious nature of youth and cite some liberal psychologist?"
c bat
03:33:32 PM
11/18/03

Apparently, having evidence to support a claim is LIBERAL, eh, C bat? I'd reckon you're anti-liberal then. Congrats.”

“Common worldwide religious belief (regardless of denomination) is that homosexuality is sinful. By embracing this lifestyle, America puts her approval on an obviously non-righteous (in the minds and morals of the world's majority) lifestyle. We are embracing and rejoicing in transgression in the eyes of many. Just watch prime time tv if you wanna see how widely accepted homosexuality is in the US.

Of course many of you dont belive in God, but most of the world does in one form or another. So to most of the world, no matter how you rationalize, you are wrong.”

“My brother and sister-in-law don't plan to ever produce children. Where does that fit in?

Weren’t you quoting the Koran the other day while arguing that 'they' would hate us no matter what, c batty? I suppose you would only appease them on this one point?”

“For the sake of discussion...

If gay marriage should be allowed, for all the reasons claimed, should we not also legalize incestuous marriage?”

“We're talking about ALL world religion right? Hold on while I research you claim that most of the world's religious people believe homosexuality to be a sin.”

“Different discussion altogether, deed. Your argument is the same one that's been refuted a dozen times, so you'll have to either educate yourself about it or stand in line.”

“By citing the Koran I am only trying to point out to you guys the way that we are preceived by our enemy, and that it's not all foreign policy.

If gays want to be together, fine. As Phaedrus pointed out, I am not one to judge. And Im not judging the decision of those who want a gay relationship. What I am against is gay adoption, gay marriage and the widespread force fed acceptance of the gay lifestyle.

And violin, very liberal of you to lash out with the name calling. Im hurt.”

“"The proliferation of gay acceptance in this country bears some responsibility in some of the negative affection that this country receives, including terrorism."

and i assume gays themselves are at the forefront of this proliferation?

regardless, no minds will be changed here. i hope all of you have a nice discussion.”

“Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 14 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 6 million

Jainism: 4 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 3 million

Tenrikyo: 2.4 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 700 thousand

Scientology: 600 thousand

Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand”

“agreed. no minds will be changed here.

you guys are lost in your wickedness. your fingertips will melt for having typed such blasphemy.

btw that was sarchasm”

“Phaed you missed witch doctorism and voodooism”

“The top two list Homosexuality as a sin.

Hinduism does not. Buddhism does not. Chinese traditional does not. Primal-indigenous varies, but mostly does not if I remember my anthropology correctly. African traditional does not. Paganism does not.

You have to go down to judaism to find another that does.”

“Apparently, 59% of American's oppose gay marriage according to a recent poll by MSNBC

Then here is a poll that says 51% support gay marriages.

IF I wanted to waste my time and search the internet I'm sure I could find a dozen psychologists, supreme justices, political leaders, and documentation proving that gay marriage screw up the emotions/mentality of children and I'm sure you could come up with a dozen of your own proving that it doesn't. The vote in Mass. was 4-3 so obviously the issue is strongly debateable. This is the same as any issue, lots of information pro/against. The thing is, I stated what I have seen first hand. I didn't have to rely on a study to tell you that openly gay high school males are going to get the crap beat out of them or non-gay children with gay parents are going to get harassed. How many people do you know that have prejudice against homosexual people? Am I against gay marriage? Yes. Am I against gay's adopting children? Yes. Am I right? According to CNN's latest poll over the Presidents anti-gay marriage statement most American's agree with me ol Dubbya. Do I have the right to my opinion, yep. I've stated my opinion and that's it.”

“I assume that you are now researching which of these religions think that gay families are a-ok”

“Looks like the world's population is pretty evenly divided among those who consider homosexuality a sin and those who do not.”

“I wonder what the Jedi religion, which is an officially recognized religion in Australia, says about gay marriages?”

“I've stated my opinion and that's it."
Dub
03:54:21 PM
11/18/03


You've stated an opinion that holds that others should be discriminated against, and shown no evidence that what they want to do is actually harmful to anyone, including children involved.”

“Looks like the world's population is pretty evenly divided among those who consider homosexuality a sin and those who do not."
Phaedrus


According to your own statistics...Christianity + Islam = 3.3 Billion...last I checked there were only 6.3 Billion people on the planet, maybe 6.5B now which puts the people against it at a majority.”

“I didn't have to rely on a study to tell you that openly gay high school males are going to get the crap beat out of them or non-gay children with gay parents are going to get harassed. How many people do you know that have prejudice against homosexual people?

Replace gay with black, and you'd have a typical white southern opinion from 1950.”

“Vitually every society contains a gay element, some tolerate it, very few embrace it."
c bat
03:36:53 PM
11/18/03


This is what those statistics refute.”

“bah!”

“Look at all these posts! The damn GNP is going to take a dive cause of all you slackers!”

“We're holding the economy hostage until gays get their rights.

:)”

“Different discussion altogether, deed. Your argument is the same one that's been refuted a dozen times, so you'll have to either educate yourself about it or stand in line.

I'll stand in line, I'm curious as to your comments.

Reread my post, I did not put that forth as an "argument" for or against anything. But to my eye, the argument supporting gay marriage as made here could equally support incestuous marriage. I'm curious as to the refutations -- but to be honest I'm not sufficiently curious to wade through the morass of bull#&%!$ and porn out on the web that such research would generate.”

“There was a organized and calculated effort to change the way homosexuality was treated in the teaching, study and practice of psychology. It was listed as a disorder at one time. The change was not driven by science but by politics within the professional organizations. Do your own research.

I supports adults rights to screw up their personal lives any way they want. They do not have the right to screw up the lives of kids. What is best for a kid is a loving family with both a father and a mother. A gay couple can’t provide all three. Just because straight people can do mean things to kids does not mean we need to expand that opportunity to homosexuals.

If kids are not in the question then marriage is to some degree irrelevant. Other than some government programs all the other “rights” couples obtain through marriage are contractual. These are between the couple, the insurance companies, the employer, etc. If that is the problem, change the contract not the definition of marriage.

I have gay friends and admire much about some of them. Yes I discriminate. I discriminate about what I eat, what I wear, you I work for, what I drive. I also do not believe adultery or fornication are acceptable behaviors. This has nothing to do with hate. I hate no one. It has to do with having standards of acceptable behavior.

Gay marriage does diminish the status of marriage to me because of my standards. It is a little like when the army gave black beret to everyone. Many of those that had earned the privilege of wearing it under the old program saw it a as diminishing the significant of the black beret.

If homosexuality is natural, why would it not be naturally selected out of the population? Homosexual acts cannot result in reproduction.”

“Mtn gal, you're wrong, and science has shown that Homosexual couples are every bit as good as heterosexual couples at being parents.

If you feel that gays marrying diminishes what you have in your marriage, that's your problem. try not to make it theirs.

I'm aware that the prejudice and politics of mid-century psychology made homosexuality be listed as a disorder. It never met the crieria for it, but rather was placed there because of the society we live in. It did, indeed, take a huge amount of political pressure to remove it from the list of disorders, but it was removed, and rightly so.”

“Again from the Boswell brief:

A. Homosexuality Is Not A Mental Disorder.

The psychiatric and psychological professions have long rejected the view that homosexuality is a mental disorder, based on extensive empirical research demonstrating that earlier assumptions about homosexuality cannot be justified by scientific observation.[7] A quarter century ago, the American Psychiatric Association removed "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders,[8] declaring that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities."[9] Following a rigorous review of the scientific evidence, in 1975, amicus APA adopted the same position, urging all mental health professionals to work to dispel the stigma of mental illness long associated with homosexual orientation.[10]

In what is widely considered a landmark study on the subject, a researcher administered three projective tests to 30 homosexual and 30 heterosexual men matched for age, IQ, and education, none of whom were in therapy at the time. The results were evaluated by independent experts who were not told each subject's sexual orientation. The independent Rorschach experts evaluated the men's overall adjustment and found that two-thirds of each group were in the three highest categories of adjustment. When asked to identify which results were obtained from homosexuals, the experts could not distinguish the subjects' sexual orientation at a level better than chance. A third expert used the Thematic Apperception Test and MAPS Test responses to evaluate the psychological adjustment of the men and similarly found no statistically significant differences between the two groups. The researcher concluded from this data that "homosexuality as a clinical entity does not exist."[11] Dozens of empirical studies have since supported the conclusion that "no correlation exists between sexual orientation and psychopathology.[12]

Thus, any question about the fitness of gay men and lesbians to be parents, if based on a belief that their sexual orientation indicates psychological dysfunction, is entirely unfounded. No scientific evidence supports a view that gay men and lesbians are categorically incapable of being good parents or that they are less likely to be good parents. Like heterosexuals, gay men and lesbians are a highly diverse group, having many different backgrounds, interests, occupations, and experiences.[13]”

“You make less sense than usual there mtn gal. If your marriage can be diminished by this, it might need a little work. Just my opinion.



From the decision:

"The question before us is whether, consistent with the Massachusetts Constitution, the Commonwealth may deny the protections, benefits, and obligations conferred by civil marriage to two individuals of the same sex who wish to marry. We conclude that it may not. The Massachusetts Constitution affirms the dignity and equality of all individuals. It forbids the creation of second-class citizens."

"We are mindful that our decision marks a change in the history of our marriage law. Many people hold deep-seated religious, moral, and ethical convictions that marriage should be limited to the union of one man and one woman, and that homosexual conduct is immoral. Many hold equally strong religious, moral, and ethical convictions that same-sex couples are entitled to be married, and that homosexual persons should be treated no differently than their heterosexual neighbors. Neither view answers the question before us. Our concern is with the Massachusetts Constitution as a charter of governance for every person properly within its reach. "Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code." "”

“A few things here:

1. I was glad to see "atheism and secularism and non-religios" listed in the list of religions, because everything is a "belief", whether you believe God exists, or you believe God doesn't exist.

2. This just shows again that historically religion and morality are important aspects of our government, and many of our laws are based on religious morality.

3. Liberals* often complain that the religious right is trying to force religion on people through the government. COME ON! Who's trying to "change" what? We are talking about laws that are the moral foundations that this country was laid upon. It isn't the "right" that is attacking, it's the "left" trying to tear down. The "right" is just trying to stand true to the values of our founding fathers and the laws that have been passed down from generation to generation. It's the LEFT who are trying to make it seem like the right has all of a sudden gone bonkers here. We are talking about centuries old laws!

Here's some examples from that God thread a few days ago, but I didn't wanna resurrect that one...

When are some people gonna realize that there is a difference between your freedom of religion and force feeding the unwilling segment of the population?
Treebeard
05:29:10 PM
11/14/03

If we're not forcing religion on anyone, why do we have to bring it up in government at all?
Phaedrus
07:29:03 PM
11/14/03

Why don't all the bozos who want to establish a Christian Theocracy go back to the Old Neighborhood and put it near the others, right between Iran and Israel? On the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates, mayhap?
Try foisting your religion on THEM and see how far you get."
Tilt
08:27:53 PM
11/14/03

I'm seriously beginning to worry about this country. There seems to have been a sea change lately where the christians have made repeated, concerted attempts to subvert the constitution. Maybe because a religiously deluded fool is president? I don't know. But christians have certainly redoubled their efforts to undermine our rights. It's truly pathetic."
Mutt
08:04:49 AM
11/15/03

When you read these statements, you get the feeling that the religious people are trying to cram and force religion down throats. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE! It's the REVERSE. We are defending existing laws. The liberals are trying to tear down the historical moral pillars and put their own revised pillars in there. It's the liberals who are trying to proselytize our society.

Libs also make it seem like gay marriage is fine and dandy with all of society, except for a few bigots. Not so. Gay marriage is not a popular idea in this country and throughout most of the world. It's the libs who are out of whack with public opinion, not the religious right. Obviously today our Founding Fathers would be considered ultra-right-wingers for the values and beliefs they held.

Lastly, I find it rather humorous, in a sick way, that libs are discussing the "rights" of all people and that gays should have all the rights of traditional historical marriage, but they fight tooth and nail to deny the rights of the beautiful, innocent unborn babies to even take their first breath outside the womb. Where's the freakin' "we're for the rights of everyone" in THAT scenario! Maybe if they could determine beforehand if the unborn baby was gay, they'd fight for the blessed right of that precious little baby. I dunno.

It all just goes to show that morality and religion are very intertwined with government policies, which is why liberals are attacking these historical pillars of moral justice in this country. If we discard these traditional laws, where do we stop? For those of you who think your little sister is kinda cute, well, perhaps you'll have your day soon.

I don't have time to go back and forth on this, your liberal responses will be very predictable, as would mine, so peace to all and I only pray that this latest decision is not made into law.”

“Deeddawg, I'll bite. Yes, aside from the genetic anomalies which may be statistically significant from "incestuous" unions, those unions are taboo, deemd "nasty" by society when it really shouldn't be anyones business.”

“Chinese traditional does not
Phaedrus
03:54:14 PM
11/18/03

China
China's psychiatric community still considers homosexuality an illness. However, it is not illegal to be gay in China, but police harassment depends on local municipal or provincial policies, many unwritten, as is much of Chinese law.

-----

Phaedrus, it is not illegal to be gay here in America, and some countries give some sort of civil union stuff that falls short of marriage, but gay marriage is not legal in China, as far as I can tell. And believe me, they are NOT a religious people, as a whole.

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/alternative_lifestyles/same_sex_marriage/gay_laws_around_the_world_/index.shtml”

“More obviously muddled thinking from Buck.

1. Religion and morality are separate.

2. Your assertion that The majority of the people in the US being against gay marriage makes it immoral is ludicrous. Was desegregation immoral? Was slavery MORAL?

3. Your comparison of this issue and abortion rights is flawed. Abortion is murder if you believe that a fetus is a person before birth, which is essentially a religious question, and again irrelevent.

4. That allowing gay marriage will lead to incest is a slippery slope argument that has no real basis in fact. We've discussed this before, but then again, they discussed this when they were legalizing interracial marriage.

The issue here is not whether you believe a gay marriage is right for you. It's about whether you care to give the same rights you have to someone very different from you. Apparently, you don't mind them being unequal to you.”

“"A. Homosexuality Is Not A Mental Disorder."

Bullchit Phead! Dr.Laura said it was and she's a doctor. So there!”

“link
The Chinese Psychiatric Association decided that being gay is no longer a disease in the third edition of its new diagnostic guidelines published on April 20th this year.

Chinese traditional religion (AKA confucianism/taoist/buddhist) has never held that homosexuality was a spiritual sin.”

“How does this effect us? I mean really effect us. Why do we care if this person wants to marry that person? Does it really effect us that much?

Perhaps I am blind here. Perhaps there is something very wrong here and I don't see it. I know the whole religious issue. I was raised under a strict baptist rule. I know all about the contempt, I see and hear it from my everknowing grandmother every time I speak with her.

Why cannot we let people live the way they want to live? Please someone free me! Help me understand why this is so tragic.”

“Damn, vio, I missed that.

"Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code."

Excellent.”

“Probably the best thing about this is 9 out of 10 winger's heads will explode within 180 days.”

“Are gays normal people, or should they be considered as having a deformity? Or what?

I have often wondered about our lives. We had no control over our births. So why should we discriminate against other people who had no control over their births.

Throughout history there have been unions between people of the same sex. But marriage has normally been considered a relationship between men and women. I do not consider it discriminatory to keep it that way.

Until someone shows me that homosexuality is normal and not caused by a defect, I shall continue to believe that it is an exception. And, when I learn differently, I may change my feelings against gay marriages.

I have had enough problems with my own life. But often, I have wondered how much more difficult it would have been if I were of a different race or handicapped.

Four percent of the population is a large number of people. They do require consideration by 100 percent of the population.”

“Life insurance beneficiaries, health insurance dependants, taxes...$$$”

“Well said, nowslimmer. I would recommend some of the reading I have linked above. Science has pretty well determined that homosexuality is not caused by a disorder or what have you.”

“OK Lucy you got some splanin to do.

If we are going to change the definition of marriage why does it stop wit just couples of any sex combinations? What about three men or two men and a women? Why should these not be acceptable? Why can’t a guy marry his cousin? Remember, reproduction is not an issue because homosexual acts do not result in reproduction. The cousins may be of the same sex? Do you think marriage should be limited in anyway? If so why?

You in favor of gay marriages, don’t try to hide behind the “slippery slope” whine. These are legitimist questions.

If homosexuality is natural, why would it not be naturally selected out of the population? Homosexual acts cannot result in reproduction.”

“"More obviously muddled thinking from Buck."
Phaedrus
04:43:31 PM
11/18/03

Ha ha! I love the way liberals are always so snooty and elitist! They try and puff themselves up by belittling others, which is a whole nuther set of pyschological thingies I don't wanna even get into (remember, if you feel small, make others look even smaller!), but I'll say this, Phaedrus, I respect you, I respect your thoughts, I think you are intelligent, I just think we have differing worldviews. That's rather obvious. But I won't think less of you because we differ on thoughts.

Okay, back to the substance instead of the personality...

"1. Religion and morality are separate."

I disagree. Morals come from beliefs, a belief that something is right or wrong or good or bad. Something can't be right or wrong unless you "believe" it to be.

"2. Your assertion that The majority of the people in the US being against gay marriage makes it immoral is ludicrous. Was desegregation immoral? Was slavery MORAL?"

First of all, when did I say that the majority of the people in the U.S. think gay marriage is immoral? Re-read my post. I said it was unpopular, if I'm not mistaken.

"3. Your comparison of this issue and abortion rights is flawed. Abortion is murder if you believe that a fetus is a person before birth, which is essentially a religious question, and again irrelevent."

If whether an unborn baby has "rights" or not (we were all unborn babies, no?) is merely a religious question, then so is homosexuality. Remember, Phaedus, you presented some facts above that even says "atheism and secularism" is a "religion". So it is the religion of WHOM to determine whether a precious unborn baby has rights or not?

"4. That allowing gay marriage will lead to incest is a slippery slope argument that has no real basis in fact."

Slippery slope? Slipping into WHAT? Are you saying incest is BAD? WHO ARE YOU TO SUGGEST THIS IS BAD BEHAVIOR, AND DENY THE RIGHTS OF TWO CONSENTING ADULTS WHO HAPPEN TO BE BROTHER AND SISTER OR MOM AND SON? On what religious or moral pretext can you suggest they shouldn't have all the legal rights of a traditional marriage? I'm lost?

Here's your own words, Phaedrus, and I'll use them for your complete understanding that a mom and son or brother and sister should have all the legal rights of traditional marriage.

"The issue here is not whether you believe a gay marriage is right for you. It's about whether you care to give the same rights you have to someone very different from you. Apparently, you don't mind them being unequal to you."”

“Phaedrus - I have done some research, such as: Gay Marriage: Reimagining Church History, Robin Darling Young

When the gay population approaches fifth percent, I will consider it normal. Until then I shall believe that something is causing it. With the rapid advances in our knowledge, I hope that the cause will someday be discovered and, eventually, corrected.”

“fifty, not fifth.”

“The local news mentioned the State
Supreme Court Judges are being
accused of judicial activism as
polls show that the majority of
the voters don't want gay mariage.”