Massachusetts to allow gay marriage

“reformed lurker, there are always interesting issues of federalism with cases like this.”

“Earlier some folks were asking about which states sodomy is outlawed in... Hasn't the supreme court overruled these laws?”

“Deed: I happen to teach psychology 1/2 time, and consult to courts and lawyers about the current state of psychological science on a variety of issues.

I also got a 790 on my Psych GRE's back in the day - so I think I am pretty up on my science.”

“Show off!”

“I'm not trying to be arrogant, but a basic understanding of science, public relations, and critical thinking are not rocket science, yet they are the most important tools we have for discerning truth in today's society. People who throw their hands in the air when faced with conflicting evidence and say "science can say anything" are being purposely ignorant, or have not been taught the tools to deal with it.”

““http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T8230

seems to confirm my interpretation. I'm only fluent in English, so I'm at something of a disadvantage."

While Christianity does hold the Torah as part of their writtings I do not generally go to christian sources for interpretation or explaination of Jewish scripture. My main point was that we can not think of the slavery from those text as the same as slavery as we think of it. There is a lot in the Jewish law concerning the treatment, retaining of and the freedom of slaves or bondsmen. Man times they sold themselves into service or are forced to make restitution. Their treatment is far and away above the treatment of actual slaves. Try this:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=850&letter=S&search=slavery”

“Well, this was my reaction to reading

"ped: you clearly haven't been involved in science very much."”

“Exactly. Deeddawg attempted to pose, and he got busted for it.”

“so phaedrus dude when are you coming out and moving to Mass?
I'm sure you can marry some other AIDboy.”

“Basically psychological science can't point to the "TRUTH" but used properly, it can separate sense from nonsense.”

“Semantics, ped. Exactly what I meant.”

“Translation: I have absolutely no evidence fo my opinion, but it's more work to rethink it than to ignore the fact.

Yawn. Phaed, you're better than that. Is an ad-hom attack all you can come up with?

So since you've opened that door:

What I find quite hilarious is how the usual crew can't stand to have their arguments pulled out from under them and react so strongly to such.

Would of y'all be so kind as to show where I have stated my position on homosexual unions? I can't seem to find where I've posted that.

Assumptions and "if you didn't believe xxx, you wouldn't have said yyy" don't count.

anyway, ped: my background was in the physical sciences in working for better than a decade with multiple Nobel physicists; I saw a lot of the politicing that can go on in those circles. Perhaps either you don't see that or perhaps such was especially bad where I was. I did not mean to demean the entire scientific establishment, but to illustrate that "science" is not necessarily as cut and dried as some here would like to think.”

“Just kiddin', pedxing!


Nigal, splitting hairs on slavery?

Are you saying that ancient Hebrews holding slaves is OK because they were god's people?

The tradition of slavery is found in all human cultures.

It may have been acceptable to primitives, but its always been wrong.”

“More nonsense. You have yet to add evidence from the other side of this argument.”

“"Basically psychological science can't point to the "TRUTH" but used properly, it can separate sense from nonsense."

Bullcrap Ped. It can't be used in all cases.


Try seperating the sense from the nonsense of THIS!

I rest my case!”

“LOL!”

“Actually, I prefer the Jewish faith over Christianity. I am even considering converting to the Jewish faith. Somehow it makes more sense to me. I personally can't believe in the virgin birth. I think that was just a really clever story made up by a unwed mother. You have to remember back in those days, people were stoned to death for stupid things.”

““Nigal, splitting hairs on slavery?”

It’s not splitting hairs Tom. It is simply saying something was not presented in it’s original intent. I know it’s a burden to go to links and read stuff on line (I personally hate it) but did ya even go to the addie I gave?

“Are you saying that ancient Hebrews holding slaves is OK because they were god's people?”

No. Never did I give any impression of that. Why would you think that?”

“deeddawg, if you're ignorant of the literature, then you cannot use the "science always has two sides to this issue". It's ridiculous on the face of it.”

“Momma, you got to start a new thread to call Mary a .....”

“Wow, this thread has more energy than the Energizer Bunny®!

: "I believe the truly "anti-gay marriage" nuts should move to Massachusetts and become voters there and fight this thing!!!"
Tom Terrific
10:54:55 AM
11/19/03

Hi Tom! If the "anti gay marriage" nuts were all to move to Massachusetts, do you really think that little tiny state could hold the majority of the American populace? I guess the vast majority of Americans are nutty people! And yes, I've always considered myself a nut! But please, can you pick a bigger state for us Americans to live in than little 'ole Mass.? Gracias Senor!”

“"Their treatment is far and away above the treatment of actual slaves."
Nigal

I'd call that splitting hairs.....slaves, actual slaves.....

If a person is owned by another, they are a slave.

We have heard the "better treatment" arguemant by apologists for American slavery.”

“There's the difference between us, Buck. I have a moral obligation to stand up for the minority.”

“Hey Buck, is Texas big enough?”

“The U.S. has an obligation to protect the minority from tyranny of the majority.”

“Here we go with the "white, straight, wasp, male is the de-vil" bullcrap!”

“Sure, Tom, but what is the best strategy to do that? Do you completely tee off the 60% of Americans against this by going for the jugular.

Or do you work bit by bit, changing the culture slowly until it becomes a non-issue?

We've got to watch for Pyrrhic victories.”

“You are funny!”

““I'd call that splitting hairs.....slaves, actual slaves.....

If a person is owned by another, they are a slave.

We have heard the "better treatment" arguemant by apologists for American slavery."

Tom, it doesn’t matter how I say something you will only continue on with your limited views and make what I say mean what you want me to say. If you refuse to even examine WHY I say what I say that is up to you. It should however preclude you from the discussion because you can’t even move forward in it.”

“"Here we go with the "white, straight, wasp, male is the de-vil" bullcrap!"
Nigal
11:32:37 AM
11/19/03

Umm huh?”

“Or do you work bit by bit, changing the culture slowly until it becomes a non-issue?

How long do we wait? 60 years ago public sentiment is about the same as it is today. For all the advances in science and culture, people are still willingly ignorant concerning homosexuality. Of course, there's an argument that the revulsion to homosexuality felt by so many is as innate and genetic as homosexuality itself. So we might not even be able to change it.”

“Yiles... I can't keep up with this thread.

LOL @ Nigal.
I knew ya was funnin me TT.
I do agree with Phaedy about basic literacy in contemporary society.

And Deed: there is a lot of BS in science research... it shows up in what questions get asked as well as how they are addressed. If mint tea cured major depression, it might never get scientifically demonstrated - becuase its in no one's interests to show it. There are a lot of experts in the world who seem to "dice" (their purpose in the world is to lie on any side).

However, there is a lot to be gained by looking critically and thoughtfully at the research - and sometimes bad research gets world-wide attention.”

“""Here we go with the "white, straight, wasp, male is the de-vil" bullcrap!"
Nigal
11:32:37 AM
11/19/03

Umm huh?"

"The U.S. has an obligation to protect the minority from tyranny of the majority."
Tom Terrific
11:26:08 AM
11/19/03””

“Hey Phaeddy ,,,do have any 'rainbow' stickers on your car? Hang a Pride from your front porch??,, been to any marches lately?

You know to show support,, since you are so passionate about gay rights,,,how far do you take expressing yourself other flaming this issue here.”

“Umm huh?”

“It is clear that the Bible treats all people as equal, male, female, free, or slave. It's the theme of the Bible. God created all people equal, and both male and female were made in His image. Slavery is man-made concept and did not come from God.

As for the reference to slavery in Leviticus... the ancient Hebrews had two codes, moral codes and civil codes. Slavery was a pagan concept and the Jews roamed around through pagan lands, having to intermingle and deal with pagan cultures. The Hebrews themselves spent many years as slaves in Egypt. The Bible does not say it is a good thing to have slaves, and in fact the Jewish response was to give "rights" to these people.

There is a difference between "slaves" in the traditional sense of the word, and "hired help". The Hebrews treated their hired help with respect and gave them rights, unlike the surrounding cultures. These were "paid" people with rights.

You won't find this kind of treatment in "traditional slavery"

Exodus 21
26 "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

And to give "rest" to all equally through the Sabbath:

Exodus 20
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it (1) you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant..."

Deuteronomy 5
14 but (1) the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.


A slave was not to be mistreated, and if a slave ran away, it was not to be returned:

Deuteronomy 23
15 "(1) You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you.

16 "He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; (2) you shall not mistreat him.

Hebrews did not kidnap people and steal them from families and force them into slavery, as what we did to the Africans. In fact, if someone stole from you and had no money, you could then make them repay with labor until it was full repaid.

1 "If a man steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it, he shall pay five oxen for the ox and (1) four sheep for the sheep.

2 "If the (2) thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.

3 "But if the sun has risen on him, there will be bloodguiltiness on his account. He shall surely make restitution; if he owns nothing, then he shall be (3) sold for his theft.

In fact, the Old Testament forbids forced slavery in the traditional sense and calls it "evil".

Deuteronomy 24
7 "(1) If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die; so you shall purge the evil from among you.

And in fact God is in the business of "redeeming" slaves.

Deuteronomy 15
15 "You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today.

In fact it God used the theme of slavery in a spiritual sense as well, as we are "slaves" to our flesh, and we have been redeemed from the slavery of sin through Christ, etc. So slavery is used in a negative sense.

As Galations 3:28 states:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."”

“You a Preacher?”

“Back can say more without saying a damn thing than anyone I've ever seen in my life.”

“No one follows the Bible! Don't you know that yet? And why not? Because just when one starts the walk, someone comes up behind them and says, "Psst! Hey! Yer goin the wrong way! It's this way!" Then someone else comes up to them from the side and says "Psst! This way, buddy!" After a few of these encounters, you end up just going your own way. IMHO, you can only go one way and that is towards death. Might as well do what I like while going there.”

“I guess Nigal doesn't get the concept of "tyranny of the majority".

The majority can NOT override freedoms of the minority.
They have tried.
That is not allowed(tyrrany) in a democratic system of government.”

“I'm not a supporter of homosexuality, I do believe it's immoral. I disagree with their choice but I do not hate them nor do I campaign to deny them the rights guaranteed under law to all citizens. This is a human rights issue.

However.

I do have very good friends that are gay. If they were to be married I would rejoice with them for thier happiness. I try to stop boys in my Scout Troop from being hateful towards gays and from calling each other gay and other hateful terms as insults. I do belive that private organisations and religions are free to choose to allow only like minded people as members and set standards for membership. The right or wrong of those standards are the domain of the members of said body.

But.....

Face it, Gay marriage/civil unions will become legal and later they will become widely accepted. The only reasons against it is based on religious grounds and social mores (that do change over time). It is merely a matter of time before both are satisfied.

Either side can trot out endless examples of criminally bad or saintly good parenting composed of any combination and permutation of faiths, lifestyles, genders or attachments. I personally have intimately witnessed the functioning of over 400 families through Boy Scouting. I have seen a pretty good cross section of what has been described on this thread. The only truth I see about parenting is that two people committed to loving and nurturing each other and to do the same for their children is the best model for a family.

Beyond that, the requirements placed on the definition of family are purely my own or of the belief structure I belong to and holds no bearing on others.

The government needs to get its hands off of marriage and let each church define what a marriage is in thier faith. All marriages are civil unions anyway. When Treebait and I got married the Sate considered us married/civily unionised or whatever when we were issued a marriage license. The actual marriage ceremony was simply that. A ceremony to satisfy us, our families and our church. In short, social recognition.

Why do gays want to marry? Stupid question. They want to be married for the same reasons everyone else does.”

“"There's the difference between us, Buck. I have a moral obligation to stand up for the minority."
Phaedrus

Hi Phaedrus! I am a conservative Christian and I take the Bible as the literal Word of God. I am in a distinct minority in taking this stance. Since I am a minority with these literal views, care to stand up for me? (tappin' foot... I'm waaaaaiiiittttiiinnnggg...)

You could use that "stand up for the minority" to any extreme. Do you stand up for the minority rights of Native Americans (of which I am one, btw) to kill bald eagles for religious purposes? How about the minority rights of those who wish to legally drive without seatbelts? How about the minority rights of dog owners wanting to hike in National Parks (we'll even take the leash laws for that one!), how about the minority rights of those who simply want images of naked children on their computers with no harm done to children, or how about the minority rights of NAMBLA, or the minority rights of those wishing to legalize prostitution across the land, etc.?”

“I read through your link at www.jewishencyclopedia.com, Nigal and I'm at a loss to understand how I was mistaken, but thanks for providing it. If someone can be bought or sold and can't own property they are a slave. My grandmother told me that her grandfather treated his slaves well, but he was still wrong to hold them.

I have no clue where Buck was going.”

“Wolfeyes, you got it, kid!
(Aren't you the one who went to Otter Creek Wilderness?
Lovely place, huh?)

As for Nigal, I guess it depends on who owns the slaves as to their actual status as slaves.”

“"It is clear that the Bible treats all people as equal, male, female, free, or slave. It's the theme of the Bible....."


so when it's said "The Faher, Son and the Wholly Goast(sprit).", where's the chick? You pray in there name, where is the womans name? Mary? The woman who gave birth to a son without gettin some?”

“"The majority can NOT override freedoms of the minority."

Yet it's OK for the will of the minorities to override the majority? Go back and reread Reformed Lurker's post on this. He said it better than I can.”

“I am a conservative Christian and I take the Bible as the literal Word of God

Good Gawd, you must be a young earther then.”

“"As for Nigal, I guess it depends on who owns the slaves as to their actual status as slaves."

THWACK! THWACK! THWACK! [the sound of Tom trying to beat a dead horse]”

“: "People who throw their hands in the air when faced with conflicting evidence and say "science can say anything" are being purposely ignorant, or have not been taught the tools to deal with it." - Phaedrus

Okay, Phaedrus, was Bush wrong for taking the advice from the scientists of the National Academy of Sciences, which resulted in the Klamath fish kills, or were the scientists at the National Marine Fisheries Service better? They looked at the same data and came to different conclusions. Some scientists believe in Bigfoot, some say it's hogwash, all looking at the same data. Some scientists think global warming is no big deal, some think we need to change our emission laws immediately. They are looking at the same data. Some scientists think evolution is fact, some don't, and even within those believing in evolution, there are many differing views on "how" we evolved. Forensic scientists can look at the same exact data and come to different conclusions, depending on if they are hired by the prosecutors or the defendents. Scientists can't even seem to agree whether a freakin' dog can see in color or not, much less anything else. Give me just about any subject, and I can find you qualified scientists on both sides. I'm not sure what this has to do with this particular discussion, but you've brought it up twice now, Phaedrus. STAY ON TOPIC, MISTER! Ha ha!”

“With all due respect Wolfy, I find this a bit intolerant in it’s own right. If someone doesn’t believe in the bible then nothing in it applies to them, which is one of the biggest reasons I don’t give people the fire and brimstone spiel. The bottom line is we need to love each other as our selves. If you accomplish this through your own personal beliefs, great. But just because someone accomplishes the same thing through their own faith doesn’t make it any less valid.

Same applies to all of life as it does to the trail...we all have to walk our own walk.”