What really matters?

“Straight parents - Father does not work and mother is addicted to crack cocaine - child is almost 5.

Lesbian Aunt - Works 40+ hours a week, has home, vehicle, medical insurance, drug free.

State calls lesbian aunt to say straight parents failed to protect/provide for said child. Child is in foster care until family member can come to get child.

Lesbian Aunt tells nephew "Sorry. I cannot come to get you because I am a lesbian. I know you don't understand that nor do you understand why you are where you are to begin with. I will ask if anyone on Trail Talk can come to get you. Some of them seem to think I would be destructive to you psychologically. Your own mother's addiction to crack cocaine was better than your ol' lesbian aunt. I am sorry."

According to some of you, crack addicted straight parents and straight parents who refuse to work, are better role models than homosexual parents. I guess personal experience makes one a little less judemental and a little more compassionate. I guess personal experience makes one angry, too. Personal experience can sometimes be very painful, too. Just ask the said child,that is if he gets the chance to survive his heterosexual environment.”

“I agree that the lesbian aunt was a far better choice. I have seen some real winners in the past, through working with the State. Believe me, sexual preference has nothing to do with character.”

“Personally I think we spend way too much time in this country, deciding how others should live.

I think its about time we look at our own lives and decide what we can do to make our selves and our own relationships better, not tell others how what to do.

I love the argument that the sanctity of marriage is being threatened, well look around folks, have you noticed the divorce rate, the number of spouses cheating on each other.

I think we need to get our own lives in order before we tell others how to live theirs.”

“Good point - and before this thread is trashed with political bull#&%!$ I wanna weigh in.

I once knew a guy who came from a family of 2 girls and 3 boys. Their parents split up and the mom decided she was gay. What prompted her to decide that, no one cares, especially not her children. The dad immediatley moved in with a woman who was mentally unstable, who had actually had spent time in the local MI.

However the State DHS, aka GOD, determined that lesbians are unfit as parents, while mentally unstable people are fit parents.

On the other hand the children loved their mom, and life was intolerable with mental case mom, so they chose foster care. They did not have the option of living with lesbian mom, which they wanted.

As you can imagine, the boys were evicted from home after home, to live on their own at the legal age of 16, and the girls were pregnant at an early age.”

“Good point - and before this thread is trashed with political bull#&%!$ I wanna weigh in.

I once knew a guy who came from a family of 2 girls and 3 boys. Their parents split up and the mom decided she was gay. What prompted her to decide that, no one cares, especially not her children. The dad immediatley moved in with a woman who was mentally unstable, who had actually had spent time in the local MI.

However the State DHS, aka GOD, determined that lesbians are unfit as parents, while mentally unstable people are fit parents.

On the other hand the children loved their mom, and life was intolerable with mental case mom, so they chose foster care. They did not have the option of living with lesbian mom, which they wanted.

As you can imagine, the boys were evicted from home after home, to live on their own at the legal age of 16, and the girls were pregnant at an early age.”

“: "Personally I think we spend way too much time in this country, deciding how others should live."
mtnsteve
12:47:43 AM
11/19/03

Hi mtnsteve! I don't think anyone is telling anyone else "how to live". How people want to live "privately" is their own business. But making "public" policy that affects all of society IS the business of the populace. Whether we make laws legalizing drugs, or changing laws regarding abortion, or handguns, or the death penalty, or any major "social issue" is quite important to everyone, would you not agree? Even "gay-friendly" Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act, which is a bill designed to establish the legal definition of marriage as a "union between one man and one woman." This definition would be binding on all agencies and programs of the federal government. We vote for politicians to help create laws that reflect the environment society wants to live in. Our society, in general, does not really give a rats rear what gay people do whatever they wanna do in private, but they don't want to endorse this behavior and give full legal marital rights. That's a societal question and concern, not an individual "clean up your own act first" concern. At least that's how I see it! But I respect your opinion if you see it otherwise. It's all about differing worldviews.”

“Didn't mean to post twice, or even submit..darn laptop...

Anyway...my point is, it's human lives, not some moral, political, or religous argument - those are just labels.”

“Hi twigeater! Since we're talking about redefining the traditional view of marriage here... do you think polygamists would be good parents? Maybe so. They might do very well raising kids. Do you think an incestual couple would make good parents? Perhaps. Do you think a mom who divorced her husband to marry her own son, who then married his bisexual aunt (it was all okay with all parties involved) could raise kids okay? Perhaps. If marriage is NOT to be simply a union between a man and a woman, what shall we define marriage to be? Is it a free-for-all? Will we make a mockery of it? If we put some limits and constraints on marriage, saying only certain consenting adults can marry, but include gay couples, but not others, isn't that still restricting the rights of others who want to get legally married? Who's to say, based on anything moral, what a marriage should or shouldn't be? If we stop with just gay couples, do we not care about consenting polygamists? Don't they have any rights? Are we so narrow-minded to exclude them? Are we polygamist bigots? Do we hate them or something? Do we allow insects to marry? Oops, I meant incestual couples? Shouldn't they have the right to marry too, we shall be so open-minded, shant we? Where do we draw the line, and who draws the line, and why draw that line in the first place? Anyone who draws a line, but includes themselves, must hate others on the otherside of their convenient little line. Anyone who says "no" to any consenting adults who want to marry, whether bisexual polygamists or whatever, would certainly be closed-minded to their needs, and selfish, and bigots, and judgmental. I just don't get it.

Of course we can all bring up examples of horrible heterosexual parents. Is that an excuse to allow bisexual incestual polygamists to legally marry and raise children?”

“So, how many happy years have you been married. Yes, we should make sure we are on straight first too. I agree with that. Relationships are really hard. People have to work at them. I believe what is important is whether a person is decent or not. How do they treat other. Moral standards are above all important to me too. But, I think love is okay, as long as you treat each other with respect regardless of sexual preference. Isn't it nice that there is someone for everyone, if they really look and work at it?”

“My post was not about marriage. Not ONE TIME did I mention anything about marriage. You see, marriage has nothing to do with most of society's problems. It does not create problems nor does it solve problems. AND, believe it or not, marriage really is not a problem itself. The only common factor in any marriage is that it takes two people to have it, make it and break it. Without the two people, marriage simply does not exist.”

“Just like Paul and John said, “All ya need is love.”. Sexuality should play as much part in fostering and adoption as religious leanings. Food, shelter, clothing, safety, and love. That is the criteria for raising a child. While I do believe in the “family” in a traditional sense, the idea that a family can only be a mom, dad, 2.5 children, and a golden retriever in the yard is a thing of the past. To think that a parent would raise a child to be gay is absurd. If anything the child would have a leg up on the other kids because they would be taught unconditional love of others.

Sorry if you are the one put in this position Wolfy.”

“Sorry to hear about his Wolfie. I agree with MtnSteve. We all need to look inside rather than out, and although we may not be able to accept things at the moment, we should not be judgmental.

The situation is not about sexual preferences. It is about addiction and caring.”

“Anyway to work round the system on this one Wolfeyes?”

“The system is not telling me I cannot take my nephew. Some of society says I shouldn't. Thank GOD, that if the time comes when the state DOES call me, THIS state will let him come with me. This has been ongoing for almost 5 years now. He is still with his parents who are back and forth with addiction and in and out of housing. Because parents are "providing" the "basics" for this child, he cannot be taken from parents. It's a no win situation as far as I am concerned. The only reason I brought this up was because of what a few people on here regard as "normal" and they say "abnormal" should not raise children. I wanted to give a live, ongoing example of what "normal" can be for a child in some cases.”

“The energy that is spent going on and on and on and on about gay marraige is unbeleivable. That thread keeps getting hit after hit. This one, however, because it hits VERY CLOSE to home and actually has a live one in it, stays pretty quiet. This alone, has answered my thread question as I knew it would. Damn, I am good!!”

“mtn steve already said it better than I could.”

“Is there anything one can do that will help this child? After all, that's what's important. I'm sure it's a frustrating situation for the family, what would be of assistance?”

“I was going to post what dhutch posted. What is w/in the realm of possibility in the very near future that will offer tangible help to your nephew?”

“Yes Wolfeyes, I was thinking pretty much the same thing myself. And if you took all the truth contained in that thread, you wouldn't have anything at all.”

“After speaking with Case Worker number God only knows, last week, here is the update:

Sister is in rehab program(again) and nephew is in Head Start. Father of child (they are not married), still collecting unemployment...has no HS diploma. Unemployment runs out in 2 months. All are being evicted from current dwelling and have to be out by end of month. If housing is not found for all three, nephew is taken from home, family is called, I will go get him from the state and Grandmother will fly up from Florida to get him from me. This is ALL we can do because the state has to give parents all chances to provide for child. Since father is in home, nothing can be done to shelter child from drug addiction. It is only a matter of time before nephew is in Florida with Grandmother. Gotta go with the system. No one has the money to take parents to court to get custody. That in itself is a shame. But, it cannot be done at this time.”

“Well put Wolfeyes, Twiggy, Nigal and MtnSteve.

There are lesbians and gay men who have had to give up relationships and send long term live-in partners packing in order to care for kids. What a sad and lonely choice to have to make! hard for the kids, too - two parental figures are usually better than one.”

“#&%!$!

How can ANYone not see this as social injustice and a campiagn for civil rights?

Wolfeyes, I'm so sorry we got into this debate in a forum that you frequent. I know this must be very personal, and if we've offended you, I'm sorry.”

“Well good luck with it Wolfeyes.

I think that when people are able to break these issues down to individual cases then they look at the issue slightly differently.”

“I'm a lesbian trapped in a man body. Someone let me out!!!”

“No need to apologize. I accept people's differences in how they feel. When it is thrown at me from someone who does not know me, then I have a problem. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is at that point. My motto in life is pretty much this thread title. What really matters is the nitty gritty. Afterall, it is the nitty gritty that is inevitable. All the #&%!$ surrounding the nitty gritty is just a vehicle to the inevitable. Some of those vehicles aren't in the greatest shape. And some never make it. That is why I don't depend on any vehicle except my legs. I know I will always make it.”

“I am not too whipped on the marraige thing, either. After seeing how much women get after a divorce, there is no way in hell that I am giving half of ANYTHING I have to some broad! No marriage for me this lifetime. WOOHOO!!! I will ALWAYS be happy!!”

“Thanks for fighting the good fight, wolf. I admire that.”

“Wolfie, the other thread is the raucous barroom "debate," minutes before last-call. This is the more genteel discussion in one of the booths.
(I thought it was a thread about "size" so didn't click on it)”

“Well, Limpy, unless you are buying last call, git outta this booth! Ok, great! Thanks for the Corona..have a seat! Now you were saying something about size there, Limpy?


Lets see if we can degenerate this thread now. LMFAO!!!”

“"This is the more genteel discussion in one of the booths."

So there is like zero chance of a cat fight breaking out here? Dang! I'm outta here!!”

“Look under the table, Nig...(hehe)”

“Damn cat scratched my leg!”

“That was not a cat.”

“better check Nigel lol”

“NIGAL GET OFFA MY LEG!”

“That's not Nigal.”

“that's not his leg either”

“He seems straight to me”

“"Look under the table, Nig...(hehe)"

PUS...er, KITTY KITTY!! 8)”

“I didn't think so but you know me, I wasn't sure...”

“looking for a kitty?”

“Everything look straight until you actually walk it.”

“Curious Nigal :o)”

“IMO, this is about beaurocrats(sp) and the lack of logic used by them.

I've gained fairly extensive experience with these folks in the last year or two.

Most anyone would agreee that the kid would be better with the aunt.

The social workers, dis-inclined and/or under-equipped to make a rational desision about the case, resort to following the general guidelines, dishing out a one-size-fits-all solution.

They can claim they're doing their job, as can the politicians. Weather or not the kids needs have been met seems to be secondary.

It's a damn shame, too.”

“I'm as straight as they come folks. That's why I can throw stuff out there cause I'm secure. But strangely enough...I'm still attracted to lesbians...”

“WOW!!! I am just like you , Nigal! I am secure, too!”

“LOL@Wolfeyes”

“I like lesbians if they like me... err.. ESPECIALLY if they like me...


:D”

“Well, I like you Phaedrus...just keep that..that, that..that, Oh MY God! What is that THING? It's so...nevermind.”