The Terri Schiavo Thread

“One of the more instructive items in this whole debate is what the Congress DIDN'T do in the Schiavo bill.

They removed any possibility of precedent. The bill only referred to this woman in Florida.

This brings me to some questions:

If the majority in Congress truly believe that Schiavo and people like her are still alive, then why didn't they pass a bill that makes it illegal to remove feeding tubes everywhere in the country?

Are they saying that even though vegetative people are still alive, it is okay to kill them in most cases - just not in this one?

If it was good for the Schiavos, then why wasn't it good for the family members of Congressmen and women? And why wasn't it good for all of us?

Are they afraid of the backlash that would ensue? And are they willing to allow numerous incidents of what logically would be considered homicide across the country just to avoid political backlash?

Also, the Congress has the power to simply say "Put the tube back in." Why did they pass a bill that only sent this thing to a court when they had the power to end the entire debate?

If I were a traditionalist pro-lifer, I would be as angry as can be at Bush and the Republicans in Congress. They had the power to save this woman's life and decided not to.

They also have the power to save thousands of people like this across the country and decide not to.

Pro-lifers should ask themselves why and use those answers to adjust their politics.”

“Why am I hearing that this woman was examined and found to be not in a vegetative state? I don't know who it was that examined her, but I bet it stirred up new contravercy over if Terri should be "let go".”

“sometimes i am completely amazed with the thinking processes of my southern neighbours.
or perhaps the lack of.”

“One of many reasons people have a hard time believing him is because it took him 8 years to remember her "wishes", after his affair took place. Eight years of her sitting there for him to remember...”

“Then why didn't Bush and the Republican Congress save her? They have the power to do so.”

“Obviously they don't.”

“Why am I hearing that this woman was examined and found to be not in a vegetative state? I don't know who it was that examined her, but I bet it stirred up new contravercy over if Terri should be "let go".”
lipstick hiker
2:24:18 AM


Lips.


No one examined her. jeb bush dragged a state employee out, who had reviewed carefully edited video tape to make judgements devoid of any actual knowledge.

It is simply another delaying tactic. They are trying to throw anything they can into the path of the court's rational and well thought out decisions.”

“Hey, does anyone here watch the television series, American Dreams?

For those of you that do not, the basic story line is about a family and their life in Philadelphia of the 60's.

Anyway, last night's episode was partially about the fathers brother. He was involved in a car accident and had to be put on a ventilator, something new in medicine at that time.

These TV shows and shot, edited and canned months in advance. I found it ironic that the show mirrored this whole case. It brought up a good point that I was actually thinking about yesterday.

What do we think about all this man made equipment that is keeping Terri alive? Is it in God's will?

Maybe this thread has already touched on this point, and if so, sorry to bring it back up. Just curious.”

““sometimes i am completely amazed with the thinking processes of my southern neighbours.
or perhaps the lack of.”
helinka
5:09:12 AM
3/24/05

Helinka, this is just the latest round of The Perpetual Republican Party Campaign.

They never stop campaigning.

The Kill-Social Security campaign is on-going.”

“PS: You are simply wrong on the opinion poll thing.

Sure ABC, CBS, CNN et al are biased. Just to be sporting, I'll grant you that.

But the results are consistent and overwhelming. These aren't close polls, my friend. Its a blow out.

Fundementalist christians, aethists, conservative , liberal, jewish, muslim . .

All united, finally in a powerful and common voice.

the Shrub brothers, Tom Delay and the repbulican congress have no business interfering in this situation.



I hope they get their f-ing heads handed to htem in the mid-term elections. What sweet justice that would be.



PS:


I know that the poll thing is not your hot issue. You make solid moral decisions reglardless of polls. It doesn't matter to you if it was 99% to 1%. You are morally absolute, black and white, there is no middle ground.


I understand that.


Like the commandment says: thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (goats, sheep andother stuff).

Clearly he is an adulter and should be stoned.

No middle ground. No excuses. Moral absolutes. No relativity.


Ignore the fact that the bible is repleat with examples of these dudes in the old testatment (and new) marrying dozens of women and begatting hundred s of kids. Ignore that.


Oh.

SARGE. Were you by chance in the Army???

The Army exists for one purpose and one purpose only. To kill our enemies.

That's it.


Just like it says in the bible, SARGE. THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

NOw to me, that is pretty unambiguous. Black and white. No room. I mean NO room for misinterpretation.

You kill. You go to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

But . . .what about the army????

boy. That's a toughie. So sargie . .if you comprimise on the army . . .and on killing . . . .

Somehow I guess that is OKAY. But Michael Schiavo comprimising on a situation beyond his control isn't.

I get it Sarge . ..it IS all relative.

It is convienient for YOU to hold him to the thou shall not commit adultery commandment, while condoning state sanctioned violation of other commandments.


that's okay . . .I am sure that state sanctioned killing (think George bush killing 153 inmates in texas, thik our army in Iraq) . . .

I am sure that state sanctioned killing is much much less of an offense in the eyes of god than Michael Schiavo's Adultery.

Nope.

THAT'S THE BIG ONE. THAT BOY IS GOING TO HELL.”

“I spoke to Elvis and he said, "You ain't nuthin' but a hound dog, just a-barkin' all the time....."”

“Some of the Conservative Christians are now saying that the Bible actually means..."Though shalt not murder".


I may be wrong here, but I think that is a Jewish interpretation.

I also believe that even if you interpret the Bible in the strictest sense, defending your country or family would not be considered a sin.

The problem with the Bible is, you can justify just about anything with it, but thats a whole new thread.
last edited: 3/24/05 8:59:24 AM”

“lee - Are you done with your straw man arguments?

You do know that they are called "fallicious" for a reason don't you?

If you really want me to answer questions, ask it in a way that you want to have an adult conversation with me and I'll consider it. Otherwise your childish manner of speaking is really not sparking my curiosity enough to debate you on this. I could go to a pre-school and argue with children if I wanted that type of mental stimulation.”

“I think any sibilance of civility died on about page 2. How many different ways can ya all say what ya feel? Damn Sam Shalam!

Anyone ever run into a big nasty snake on the trail? What did you do? Was it poisonous?”

“Sure did Nigel.”

“snakes = the other white meat.”

“Have you ever killed and eaten a snake?”

“I stepped right over a sleeping rattlesnake coiled in the trail once.”

“Nope. But I talked to people, who know people, who may of met someone who did.
Heck, thats good enough for me!”

“I almost stepped on a 5’ black snake and the damn thing reared up like a cobra and refused to move. Scared the shlt out of me and I like snakes (shut up!). I was like super paranoid the rest of the weekend. The big black and yellow bumble bees were buzzing under the dead leaves and it would sound just like a timber rattler. I’d jump every time.

What a little bltch…”

“I have had snake stew! Pretty good stuff. Turtle is some good eating too!”

“I got a black snake that size by the tail a couple of years ago and scared the piss outta mapleleaf.

What a girl!!”

“I've come across rattlesnakes and tarantulas in Death Valley. Didn't make soup though.”

“Sarge-

Without being sarcastic at all.

I have no use for your moral absolutism.


I think it, and the body of religious law it stems from are hypocritical, contradictory garbage.

I think that your argument: that Michael Schiavo shouldn't be making decisions on Terri's behalf because of his relationship and children with another woman, is so narrowly constructed, so close minded, so impractical, so devoid of any consideration of the facts, circumstances and context of the situation as to render it moot.

I think it is a non-arguement. It merely allows you, from this very narrowly constructed perch, to assert that her parents should be making decisions.

I don't agree with your premise, I think you are radically, irrationally narrow minded and therefore we really don't have much to argue about.

That is what I think.




I have seen, at close hand, three examples of what Michael Schiavo has experienced in losing the companionship of the love of his life.

Many of my client's are older. Several of them have lost the companionship of someone they have loved and shared with for 40 years or more through dementia (Alzhemier's). In two cases they have been comforted, found companionship with, moved in with, and after the eventual death of their spousse, one married her companion.


They still loved their suffering spouse. They cared for them at home until it was no longer physically possible. They visited them faithfully until the day of their death.

THEY WERE FULLY EMPOWERED AT ALL TIMES TO MAKE MEDICAL DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THEIR SPOUSE, NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR "ADULTEROUS" RELATIONSHIP.

They had the blessing of their children, who unselfishly recognized their parents need to have companionship and company.

they third case was that of a good, close friend, whose mother was suffering from early onset alzhemiers. No longer recognizes anyone in the family, including her husband of 25-30 years.

After 4 or 5 years of being alone, without companionship, at age 58-61 or so, he too found a woman who he started dating.


Alison couldn't help but think twice about it . . .Mom was still alive, and they were still married, but Alison has a broader world view than you do Sarge. She is a more human, more compassionate individual. She is simply glad that her father can be happy.

And no, she wouldn't dream of trying to strip away his right to continue making medical decisions for her Mom, his wife.



Sarge. In the real world, these decision are made every day.In the real world, people are compassionate, understanding, and wants what's bst for the ones they love.


I am glad that I live in my world. Not in yours.


Peace.”

“I have eaten both snake and alligator.

Snake . .. and I know this is trite . ..tasteda bit like chicken.

the alligator was meatier . .gameier.”

“Tarantula soup would be a waste. Ya have to just throw them on the fire a few seconds until it's nice and burnt and then eat it that way. Just like the natives in the Amazon do.”

“I am glad I don't argue using appeals to emotion instead of using logic. I am glad I don't use straw man arguments. I am glad I am not hypocritical as you were when you said "It merely allows you, from this very narrowly constructed perch, to assert that her parents should be making decisions. I don't agree with your premise, ..." which is completely ironic considering your premise is wrong - I have no interest in asserting that her parents should be making decisions.

I am also laughing at you for other hypocritical statements you made. Namely "I have no use for your moral absolutism." coupled with "I think you are radically, irrationally narrow minded".

You are hypocricy and narrow-mindedness personified.”

“See - taste like chicken.”

“What if you prepaired a Tarantula the way there were in the movie, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Remember the scene at the palace? Snake surprise? Eye soup?”

“This Shiavo thing has got the phones ringin' big time at The 700 Club.

The best things in life are free
You can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me
Money (that's what I want)......”

“Supreme Court denies Schiavo parents' appeal”

“If this gets any crazier Janet Reno might have to send in the jack-booted thugs.”

“OK, I’ll jump back on topic for just a second. I find the whole right to deathers funny and a bit hypocritical. Let’s say she did have the presents of mind to decide she didn’t want to live. If she was aware enough to decide, she wouldn’t be able to! We jailed Dr. Kavorkian for merely ASSISTING people in this.

And where are all the people on the left who are against the death penalty? Why aren’t they standing outside the home with candles and signs? Their big argument with the death penalty is that you can’t be 100% sure the person is guilty. But we can say 100% that she would want to die?

And why is the feeding tube the deciding factor? She’s able to eat by mouth. All she needs is someone to feed her but the husband won’t allow it. ?????”

“I din't realize that it was this many:

Twenty court rulings have sided with Michael Schiavo, who as husband is also guardian. The courts have ruled that evidence shows Terri Schiavo expressed her wishes, although she did not have a written living will.”

“That in itself is scary lee that the courts seem to have the final say on everything. No checks or balances.”

“Nigal, she can't eat hence the feeding tube.

damn, I posted after I said I wouldn't.
last edited: 3/24/05 9:58:06 AM”

“We have a funny little wrinkle like that in CT right now.


Michael Ross. Convicted, confessed 100% guilty. No arguement about guilt. Strangled, raped and killed 8 yound women, maybe more.

After 16 years on death row, gave up his apeals and wants to be put to death.


His scheduled execution was postponed in january. Why???


Because .. . .if he WANTS to be put to death, than he obviously is mentally incapable and can't be put to death.


It is only if he DOESN'T want to be put to death that we can actually kill him.


He is scheduled for may 11th . .undergoing pyschiatric testing to see . . .to see something . . . .
last edited: 3/24/05 9:58:32 AM”

“Sure is Nigel.”

““Nigal, she can't eat hence the feeding tube.”

No, she IS able eat soft foods such as puddings and other soft foods by mouth. Every nurse that has gone on the record has stated so.”

“They(whoever "they" are) are saying that much of the woman's brain has turned to spinal fluid.

I didn't know you could do that.”

“Hell MarkO, I been walkin' around like that for years. Nobody's taken my food bowl away though. LOL!”

“Doctor's have told me that the majority of my brain is grain alcohol now.”

“Lee, that is the classic catch-22!

Nigal, the court system itself has what might equate to checks and balances. That's why there is an appeals process. There are the three tiers in the system that allow you to take an unfavorable decision and bring it before a whole new set of judges.

Then, of course, if it's politically expedient, maybe congress will stick it's fat old nose in and act as the check and balance factor....
last edited: 3/24/05 10:07:36 AM”

“Are these people arguing that the court system is bullet-proof also the ones arguing that the death penalty is too risky due to uncertainty?

Sorry Nigal, had to re-ask since an answer was sidestepped.”

“This isn't merely scary:

“That in itself is scary lee that the courts seem to have the final say on everything. No checks or balances.”



its terrifying.



The only thing more terrifying than a dispassionate judiciary being forced to make this decisions is a passionate legislative body, driven by pandering to mid-term elections results, trying to make them.


It s tragic that the judiciary is involved inthis.

Yet, I find myself enormously grateful that they are.

It hadn't quite been driven home to me how important lifetime appointments, and separation of powers truly is until his election cycle and these actions by bush and his minions in the house.


I am with you Bro. Its pretty scary stuff.”

““Hell MarkO, I been walkin' around like that for years. Nobody's taken my food bowl away though. LOL!”
Nigal
10:04:19 AM
3/24/05

From your photos I'd have to agree. >8^]”

“It's not a fair comparison because of the underlying nature of why people are put to death. On one hand, there's a criminal act involved and this is the "penalty phase". And on the other, this is what is reputed to be a mercy killing, where one's wishes are to be carried out so they (as an INNOCENT person) will not have to live with undesired pain and misery. Sensitive? Absolutely (and packed with good arguments on both sides). But, to be equated? Sounds good on the surface, but not as cut and dried as you put it.
last edited: 3/24/05 10:13:10 AM”

“I was only addressing those whose reason against the death penalty for crimes was because the courts are not perfect.”

“you won't get a death penalty arguement from me.

I am (this is not a joke), I am pro-death all the way across the board.


I believe in the unfettered right to abortion, ethuiasisiaia, death penalty.


I am not hypocrital on this one at all.


Now. If i was anti-abortion (pro-life, yay!) and at the same time pro-death penalty (pro-death, yay!)

THAT would be hypocrital.


I am sure that a person who took those diametrically opposed views could come to some rationalization of their view. ("the murdering scum deserves to die on the gurney, and the innocient unborn fetus deserves a chance at life) . . .but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical.”

“Frankly, one of my major reasons against the death penalty is that it absolutely is not a deterrant to crime. There's f_ckers our there who just want to die and would prefer it to life in prison.

Timothy McVeigh is a perfect example. A more heinous crime than we have ever seen on our soil is rare, if at all it exists. Here's a sorry-ass mofo that, on the surface, one would say that death is too good for him. But, I look at this a little differently. Here's a guy who wanted to die. He even said so. So, basically, we gave him his wish and an easier way out, so we would be rid of him. What if we let his ass rot in jail? This way he could live with what he did on a daily basis, knowing that his sorry ass will never see the light of day. Lots of you may not agree, but it's a viewpoint worth looking at...
last edited: 3/24/05 10:19:16 AM”