The Terri Schiavo Thread

“reformed lurker...

Thank you for that.

I went through something similar with my patents. Thats when I realized that mourning was for the living. Death is Graduation, the next place we go to is much better than this one...and we can't leave this one alive.”

“I tend to think that there was probably a missed opportunity earlier in this whole process for Shiavo to die peacefully. But the decision was made to stablize her in the current situation. At that point, "God's Will" becomes obscured.”

“Once again Buck, this isn't about her parents or the pain the rest of us may be feeling, it's about her wishes.”

“Buck, think about this possiablity....

What if her soul has been begging to pass for the last 15 years. What if she has wanted to walk to wards the light for the last 15 years, but cant, because her loved ones don't have the courage she does.

What if her soul has been kept here all this time, wanting to leave but unable? That would be the cruelest form of torture I can imagine.
last edited: 3/24/05 11:05:43 PM”

“Once again Buck, this isn't about her parents or the pain the rest of us may be feeling, it's about her wishes.”

Sorry, I must've missed where her wishes read, "Please, in case of tragedy I want to slowly die through dehydration and starvation while my parents desperately wish to give me hope, and whatever you do, do NOT let my mom put ice to my parched lips out of love, nor let her tears touch my dry lips, I want to die slowly and deliberately and have my organs fail one by one over time due to lack of water and nutrition".

Yep, that was her wishes. No doubt.”

“What if her soul has been begging to pass for the last 15 years.

But what if it wasn't?”

“Never mind.

I hope when you have to face death, either your own or a loved one's, you will have the courage to do whats right.”

“There are many worse ways to die my friend.
last edited: 3/24/05 11:16:40 PM”

“I hope when you have to face death, either your own or a loved one's, you will have the courage to do whats right

I will have the courage to do what's right. Slowly dehydrating and starving someone I totally love is not one of my options. I think it's cruel and inhumane and sickening. I wouldn't put my dog down like that, much less my wife or daughter or mom.”

“. Slowly dehydrating and starving someone I totally love is not one of my options. I think it's cruel and inhumane and sickening

Believe what you will. It's not reality, but thats your choice.”

“Keeping them pluged into a machine because I cant bear to let them pass, is cruel and inhumane and sickening.”

“I have been around death enough to realize that one of the last stages is when they willingly quit eating and drinking, do you think they do that because they enjoy torturing themselves?
last edited: 3/24/05 11:27:51 PM”

“Believe what you will. It's not reality, but thats your choice.”

But I thought they unplugged the feeding tube and are letting her die of dehydration/starvation? Am I missing something? Is this not reality? Okay then, how are they letting her die if it's not through dehydration/starvation?”

“"There are many worse ways to die my friend"

you could die of insanity reading this thread”

“Keeping them pluged into a machine because I cant bear to let them pass, is cruel and inhumane and sickening.”

There are lots and lots and lots of people who have been in extended comas with more than just a feeding tube keeping them alive and they are alive and well and thankful today. In fact they just had a gal on Larry King Live who they were gonna give up on and she's a smart, beautiful woman. She's glad they didn't, no doubt.”

“You are not listing. You have made your mind up that its torture, regardless of what all the experts say.

Why do you suppose that in hospitals they don't stick feeding tubes in all those folks on their last legs...because they enjoy torturing folks...yea, that must be it.

You better call the cops, because thousands die like this every year.”

“She is not in a coma...SHE HAS NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!!!!
last edited: 3/24/05 11:39:32 PM”

“I'm outa here...............”

“You are not listing. You have made your mind up that its torture, regardless of what all the experts say

mtnsteve, I just watched a panel on Larry King Live of which many disagree with you. They are shocked that we are letting her die like this, and one of them was a surviving coma patient. A disabled woman called in, stuttering and in fear, wondering if she would have the same fate. It was truly sad. Terri is responsive, just ask her loved ones close to her. They would love to care for her.

If she has zippo feelings like you say, and is not really "human" at this point in terms of a brain, then why care so much if she lives? If she doesn't know she's alive and has zippo feelings and could care less either way, why not let her parents love her and cherish her and hold out hope for her? They feel she would want to live and they want to care for her. Millionaires have pledged financial support for her in hopes she'll pull out of it or a cure can be found. If you feel she is not suffereing in any way right now, then let her be. How is it torture to let her live? Her husband has a live-in girlfriend from a decade ago and has a couple kids from his girlfriend, why not just give legal guardianship and care to her parents who want her to live and they strongly believe she would want to live? I don't understand.

If it was her wishes to not be hooked up to a machine, then why did her husband hook her up to a machine for the first few years against her will? Wassup widdat?”

“I know when pets stop eating, you euthanize them, so they don't end their life by starving, but that is not allowed with people. They are supposed to waste away and suffer if they have cancer or other diseases. That is how our society is set up legally.

Now the question is, does Terri feel pain or discomfort from being denied food and starving to death? Does anyone know? If she does, then it would be criminal to let her go that way, but then on the other hand, you can't euthanize her, so it's a catch 22 situation.”

“For those who care, here's an outstanding article on the history of this case. It brings tears to my eyes that we are killing her.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463”

“Liberals are fighting hard for Terri's death, but not for the death of these diseased individuals:

The lethal pitch cancer disease enters the body through wounds via the fungus Fusarium circinantum. Diseased individuals rarely die fromt the disease, but suffer weakened immune systems and are suseptible to other types of attacks. Symptoms include limbs that turn green, reddish brown, or even drop off. Dead tissue is found at infection sites. Affected individuals are helpless on their own and cannot speak for themselves, and require outside human intervention for their lives to be improved.

Why are liberals fighting to save these victims, but not Terri?

http://www.greenspacecambria.org/saveourtrees.html

Where are your priorities?”

“it was only a matter of time before someone bashed liberals. childish.

have the conservatives been bashed yet? if not, it'll soon happen.

good job sarge, you just trivialized this sad situation.”

“jmitch - Have you just joined us? The conservatives have been bashed from the beginning on this for our "stupidity".

Welcome aboard jmitch. Catch up next time before you make wild accusations.”

“I jumped to the beginning of this thread (Last 5 days) to find an example.

The very first post says this:

PRO-LIFERS GET PLAYED

One of the political difficulties of being a Pro-Life Republican is that you don't actually want abortion to be banned. It would create a backlash. Let's call it the Buchanan rule. Look Pro-Life, but not TOO Pro-Life.

This issue is perfect. It is focused narrowly on one family with little impact on anything else. Republicans can prove they are "Pro-Life" without actually doing anything to end abortion or euthanasia on a large scale.

Pro-Lifers get their biscuit and the Republicans avoid backlash.

Finally, why exactly don't the voters of Florida get to decide their own affairs? Why should Washington decide a local issue like this? Oh, that's right, the government knows better how we should run our lives than we do.

Sorry for my forgetfulness.

By reformed lurker

jmitch - Don't try to blame me for playing politics ...”

“Three posts later by violin ...

"Looks like DeLay has found an issue to take the focus off his 'ethics problems'."”

“Buck, LH finally hit the point which answers your question about euthenizing her. That would set a legal precedent in this country that make Dr. Kevorkian a martyr and our politicians couldn't condone something like that. So, either they reinsert the tube or she goes like this. I hate to put it so callously, but that's the reality.

And, I am not trying to be cold-hearted. I just look at this as a horrible situation, not something that I feel compelled to take sides with. I identify with it to an extent, because,as I stated several pages ago on this thread, my own father passed when he was in a vegetative state. The pictures of Terri appearing to try and communicate with her folks is eerily similar to my experience back in 1988. My father lay there for four weeks, being kept alive through artificial means and revived whenever his vitals would slip. I would sit there with him and he would be totally unresponsive. Then, out of the blue, he would raise his head and appear to be trying to speak. His mouth would move as if trying to form words. His eyes were open, and at times, I think that my will towards hope would convince me for a minute that something positive was about to happen. It never did. This happened several times daily. After observing this for four weeks, I came to the conclusion that this was not my father. This was a shell that once was my father. As hard as that was to accept, my mom and brother concurred. It absolutely ate away at us to see him like this, knowing there ain't damned thing we could do about it. Then, his vitals started failing again on a Tuesday night. My mom and I were there and made the ultimate decision that we knew was his wish. DNR! Let me tell you, it's not easy tolet go. So, I feel for Terri's folks. Believe me, I feel for Terri's folks!

The difference here is that Terri's vitals aren't failing the same way my dad's was. That's where the point at the top of this post comes into play about mercy killing and why this has becaome a national uproar. Mercy killing is illegal as it stands now. They can't simply inject her. But, instead of actually doing something with our laws, our government, in it's inimitable wisdom, goes with a rash emergency session and try to sidestep the laws instead of changing them. That's why this has resulted in chaos and what amounts to some as cruelty...
last edited: 3/25/05 7:53:56 AM”

“sarge,

neither liberals or conservatives are responsible for this.

no one is advocating her death, but that her wishes be honored and she be allowed to die with dignity.”

“jmitch - What you don't seem to realize is that, regardless of what the "perfect" legal system has found, that statement you just made is completely disputeable. It is not known for a fact that is what she wants.

If it were, this wouldn't be the big news that it is.

You are ignoring the reality that people are being put into a situation where they have to make a decision for her not knowing what she wants. That's the whole point of this.

I did not say liberals were responsible for this. I said they are fighting for her death but won't do the same for the trees. There priorities are backwards in my opinion.

I have admitted all along I am not in a position to have an opinion whether or not she should die, but neither is anybody else in this particular case. We should err on the side of life and not fight so hard to starve her to death. A reasonable discussion is warranted for this case, but you seem quick to just say "the courts have ruled, let's move on". It's not that simple. All of the laws necessary to guide every decision in civilization have not been written. Many times, civilian discussion is necessary. I know you are from the legal field and may feel strongly about your profession, but you need to realize that the laws are not perfect.”

“there's all this talk about her being "murdered" or "starved to death".

well, when a court finds that she did not want to be on life support, what are the options? our law does not permit killing her with a drug cocktail.

millions of americans have living wills that state they do not want to be on life support, as the court found here with terri's wishes, the only option to effectuate this intent is to withold feeding tubes and water. it is common, accepted practice.

have thousands of americans in similar situations been cruelly starved to death? if so, we have a much bigger problem than terri.”

“jmitch has hit it on the head. She's not unique here. That's why I said what I did about congress merely sidestepping the law in this ONE case instead of enacting comprehensible legislation that may actually tackle this problem in the future and not worry about pissing off constituents...”

“You know, it is a fine line to walk.

I believe in the dignity of every human being. I do believe that there is value in life even if that life is painful or limited in some way.

And I think that it is dangerous to put a relative value onto various forms of human life.

But there is a time in which the fight becomes more costly than the possible gain. To me, decades of emotional limbo, financial cost and legal wrangling do not match the extremely limited life that this woman might have even in the best case scenario.

BTW, wouldn't you love to be the family of another hospice resident in the rooms next to Terri Schiavo? You are trying to make tough decisions about a relative and you've got these people trying to storm the building, yelling all sorts of crazy things.”

“There is a difference betwee life support and a feeding tube.

A feeding tube is similar to being hand fed by a spoon.

The key words that are being misused here are "life support".”

“Anybody here on cholesterol lowering meds? That's life support.

Anybody here on blood pressure meds? That's life support.

Anybody here on have dental fillings? That's life support.

Anybody here take anti-biotics? That's life support.

Anybody here live under shelter? That's life support.

Let's starve anybody on "life support".”

“BTW, thanks Sarge for reposting that.”

“No ... Thank you!”

“its off topic, I know, but i wanted to follow up on the following comment of yours:

"We are God's hands and feet."

Buck
10:27:30 PM


Can I be God's tallywacker?????

He must score some smokin chicks.

For instance: Cleopatra, Marilyn Monroe . . .who are some other hot chicks who are dead??”

“this case boils down to her original intent.

but when a case has been endlessly litigated like this one, with multiple hearings, de novo hearings, appellate review that has gone up and down the state and federal court system, i feel confident our court system has properly determined her intent.

otherwise, if our court system was subject to so much second-guessing, if our court system was subject to high emotions and politics, that system would literally collapse.

i know our courts and our laws aren't perfect, but if someone doesn't like the law, change it through the legislature, not the courts. i think bush himself is against it, i remember hearing the phrase "judicial activism" or "legislating from the bench" from the last campaign.

the only way to determine ANYONE'S wishes in a situation like this is through the courts.”

“Sarge, the best thing that could happen for the Democrats politically is for a last second court order to come through that puts the tube back in.

This thing has brought out all the extremists - Randall Terry and the like. Shoot, even Pat Buchanan is back.

And all the polls say that this issue has eroded support for the President and the Republicans.

The longer she lives, the more those poll numbers grind down.

But the Republicans brought this upon themselves. The Democrats are just observing the whole thing.”

“Florida has rejected last night's appeal:

A federal judge in Tampa this morning denied the latest motion by the parents of Terri Schiavo to have the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube immediately reconnected. It was the second time U.S. District Judge James Whittemore has ruled against the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler. Schiavo is beginning her seventh day without food or water.”

“lurker - First of all, if you think this is a republican/democrat issue, you're wrong. Look at congressional votes showing where the splits take place. They are almost 50/50.

Second, I don't care about the "support" for the President or the Republicans. I am not a Republican, and I do not base my opinion on public opinion.

Third, this is a liberal/conservative issue. There are too many "moderates" in both party to make this Repub/Democrat. It's too simplistic of a way to characterize it.

PS - A true conservative would want the courts out of it ... even at the lowest levels. This is a family matter - and my opinion is that Michael left the family long ago.
last edited: 3/25/05 8:28:32 AM”

“I saw your point up till this, Sarge.

Third, this is a liberal/conservative issue.

Anyone who looks at this issue a liberal.conservative, repub/dem or any side v side, i s missing the boat and guilty of the same shameful brand of politicizing that congress is guilty of. I am condemning congress as a whole for their shoddy handling of this and I have explained why I feel this way. Not once did I put this at the feet of any select group. This is a human issue and, as jmitch put it, strictly for the courts and the legal system to decide due to the gray areas of this situation...”

“treebird - I am not saying it is a liberal/conservative issue because I think liberals should think one thing and conservatives should think another. I am saying that because that is where the chips fall. Statistically, liberals are taking one position and conservatives another. Not all of them, but there is more of a leaning for conservatives (not Republicans necessarily) to want her to live. I am not the one compartamentalizing this. Human nature has done that. I have no intention of stereotyping one group or another. I would hope anytime we say liberal/conservative in any discussion, we take it with a grain of salt.”

“I agree. And if I read too much into your post, I apologize.

But, I do feel that congress took the wrong approach here. And that goes for Gov. Bush, too...
last edited: 3/25/05 8:50:40 AM”

“I agree with that as well. Yet, I maybe take it a bit further and say that a Greer decision was uncalled for too. To me, it's a family matter, period. Although I admit, I am extreme in my views on this compared to the general populous. Seems like on this matter, everybody's view is extreme to some extent.”

“I think this whole thing is shaking down as it should as far as what’s best for everyone. The feds were kept out of the hospital room, and privacy was upheld. Oh except for Terri. Not too sure she’s happy about it. I’m sure she will be glad when it’s all over though.

Anyone see some the stupid protesters down there in Florida? They were holding signs like, “Her skin is peeling!”, “Her tongue is swollen!”, “Feed Terri for God’s sake!”, and my favorite, “FREE TERRI!”. They make it sound like she was wrongly accused of murder or something. And the debases that symbolically crossed the line with bottles of water just so they could get arrested and make the news? TASE ‘EM!!”

“Nigal - Suppose for a minute that she is in fact aware of her dehydration. Are those protests so out of line then?

You obviously think she is anaware of any suffering, but don't you admit you may be wrong about that?

Those signs are perfectly legitimate for people who think she is suffering. You may disagree, but dismissing them as "stupid" is like saying that you are definitely right about her state of awareness. If you could prove that definitively, you'd be rich.

Nobody knows if she's suffering except her. If you know better, please call the national media quickly and get the proof out there for the rest of us to see before we prolong this any longer.”

“...to an extent.

I think the media and the government have totally increased the gray areas about this case in people's minds with a barrage of information and mis-information that has a level on inconsistency that is probably unparalleled in any case that I know of. So, it's not surprising that the average person is thoroughly confused. Of course, Nigal's also right about some of the grandstanders out there. They have no business sticking their noses into this...”

““Nigal - Suppose for a minute that she is in fact aware of her dehydration.”

Did I say she wasn’t aware of her dehydration?

“Are those protests so out of line then?”

I am all for free speech but the way people go about protesting is absolutely self defeating. All I see when I see American protesters is “LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!”. Now, had all these people showed up wearing black, carrying no signs and simply sat down, didn’t speak a word and refused to eat or drink if she didn’t; now THAT is a showing of descent.

“You obviously think she is anaware of any suffering, but don't you admit you may be wrong about that?”

How can I be wrong about something I never said?

“Those signs are perfectly legitimate for people who think she is suffering. You may disagree, but dismissing them as "stupid" is like saying that you are definitely right about her state of awareness.”

No, calling them stupid is my opinion and I think I happen to be spot on. They are nothing but a guilt trip by disconnected fools who are out there to defend their point of view more than Terri.

And let’s not bow to rhetoric. Those against this are using any and every single rumor or propaganda they can find. They make it sound like she is in hell and writhing in pain and discomfort. She is surely being treated with pain meds. My opinion is she doesn’t even know what’s going on and is not in pain.”