The Terri Schiavo Thread

“Sarge --

My understanding throughout is that her cerebral cortex: thoughts, feelings, awareness, sense of time, place etc is literally, literally liquid. It has been liquified. It is just spinal fluid.


That the type of damage she suffered by have oxygen deprived through the heart attack attacks the cerebral cortex first, because the cerebral cortex is most metabolically active.

So the oxygen deprivation killed her sentinent being, but did not progress far enough to kill her motor.


That is the tradgey of all of these "monday morning doctors". they (we) are all reviewing the "game tapes" and see someone who looks very much like something is going on.

There is not. This has been explored, legigated and adjucicated more thoroughly than virtually any patient on record.

I will go hunt up the transcript of the medical phenomena that occured.



So no. (I know you were asking Nigal) . .NO I do not "admit" she is suffering anything. At all.

She simply doesn't have the capacity to.”

“The transcript is a pay thing on NPR.

But this is the piece I was refering to:

Analysis
Defining a 'Persistent Vegetative State'




Here's a link. There is an audio transcript you can listen to:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4555767
All Things Considered, March 22, 2005 · NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Dr. James Bernat, a professor of neurology at Dartmouth Medical School, about the medical definition of a "persistent vegetative state," how people are diagnosed and treated, and the state of research into this area.
last edited: 3/25/05 9:28:24 AM”

“Sorry I mischaracterized your feelings Nigal.

Now that you've made your logic known, I still happen to disagree with you.

You (and I'm getting this from your words this time) said they are self defeating. You seem to be assuming they are looking for a guilt trip but really the purpose of protest is to draw attention to a situation, which by the way, your attention has been drawn to.

Also, on a side, please explain this apparent incompatibility in your statements:

Did I say she wasn’t aware of her dehydration?

My opinion is she doesn’t even know what’s going on and is not in pain.”

“lee - my experience with NPR is they do a great job of showing one side of a story.

They don't, for example, explain that CT scans are incapable of determining if her brain is "liquid", for example.”

“Sarge --


I wasn't going to argue NPR politics with you. I offer that piece only for the information it provides.

You can listen or not.

It certainly doesn't bother or affect me.




PS: The Schiavo's have re-filed in Atlanta”

“Sarge, you are a better man than me.
I'll hike with you anytime.”

““You (and I'm getting this from your words this time) said they are self defeating. You seem to be assuming they are looking for a guilt trip but really the purpose of protest is to draw attention to a situation, which by the way, your attention has been drawn to.”

My attention was not drawn to their cause. It was drawn to the fact they were holding stupid signs.

“Also, on a side, please explain this apparent incompatibility in your statements:

Did I say she wasn’t aware of her dehydration?

My opinion is she doesn’t even know what’s going on and is not in pain.”

Exactly, I hadn’t said she wasn’t aware. Then in my next post I DID state I believe she is not aware of anything. My first post was not taking one view or the other. I was asking you where you were drawing your conclusions from.”

“And let’s not bow to rhetoric. Those against this are using any and every single rumor or propaganda they can find. They make it sound like she is in hell and writhing in pain and discomfort. She is surely being treated with pain meds. My opinion is she doesn’t even know what’s going on and is not in pain.
Nigal

Can someone please explain to me again why she's on pain meds? I thought the docs testified that the light was on but no one was home?

You also mentioned the protesters. I had a chance to meet many of the individuals with the red life tape on their mouth. I must say I have a huge respect for them. Yes, they are Christians and they understand that their most effective protest is total silence and order. They believe that their presence alone speaks louder than any sign and even mentioned their efforts to separate themselves from the sterotypical anti war circus. Of course, being totally silence allows them to go almost anywhere. I have wondered if they are still outside the hospice since it has turned into a circus.
last edited: 3/25/05 9:39:20 AM”

“Nigal - So you do agree she is aware of her dehydration? Why won't you just say it?”

“Nigal - protesters are not always successful. I'm not sure they ever claimed to be 100% successful.

Other times, they are.

Look at Kyrgyzstan.”

““Can someone please explain to me again why she's on pain meds? I thought the docs testified that the light was on but no one was home?”

I do not believe her condition precludes the feeling of pain.”

““Nigal - So you do agree she is aware of her dehydration? Why won't you just say it?”

Listen carefully Sarge, given her mental state and pain meds she is surely on, what I said was I do not think she is aware of ANYTHING. It is more likely she is in a state of oblivion.”

“It's funny how we can't justify artificial feeding through a tube, but we can justify artificial pain supression to kill somebody.

Wow!”

“Who’s not justifying a feeding tube but justifying pain meds?”

“All of the people who want her off the feeding tube and on pain meds.”

“Would it be better that she not be on pain meds? Thos ehwo agree with pulling the feeding tube are not saying she should suffer. Their whole argument for pulling it is to end her suffering.”

“Not according to people like lee who say "My understanding throughout is that her cerebral cortex: thoughts, feelings, awareness, sense of time, place etc is literally, literally liquid. It has been liquified. It is just spinal fluid." ... and ... "This has been explored, legigated and adjucicated more thoroughly than virtually any patient on record. I will go hunt up the transcript of the medical phenomena that occured." - (from NPR)

Apparently medical doctors, judges and lawyers and NPR disagree with you Nigal.
last edited: 3/25/05 10:21:28 AM”

“Those quotes have nothing to do with what I posted Sarge. You seem to be trapped within your own circular reasoning.”

“Nigal - you said "Thos ehwo agree with pulling the feeding tube are not saying she should suffer. Their whole argument for pulling it is to end her suffering."

This is in direct conflict with the other quotes by lee in reference to court cases and scientific studies for this case.

It's completely relevant to your post.

Here's is more food for thought ...

Suffering is impossible without the awareness of suffering.

Suffering is the awareness of pain.
last edited: 3/25/05 10:29:52 AM”

““This is in direct conflict with the other quotes.”

No it’s not.

“Suffering is impossible without the awareness of suffering.

Suffering is the awareness of pain.”

Lee’s quotes say nothing about not being able to feel pain.”

“"Lee’s quotes say nothing about not being able to feel pain."

Really?

Are you telling me this says nothing about feeling pain?:

"My understanding throughout is that her cerebral cortex: thoughts, feelings, awareness, sense of time, place etc is literally, literally liquid. It has been liquified. It is just spinal fluid." ... and ... "This has been explored, legigated and adjucicated more thoroughly than virtually any patient on record. I will go hunt up the transcript of the medical phenomena that occured."

He used the words "feelings", "thoughts" and "awareness".

If she can feel pain, as you are saying, and she is not aware, then she can't be suffering. How can you end suffering that isn't there?”

“I'll bet Terry is pretty hungry and thirsty at this moment.”

““He used the words "feelings", "thoughts" and "awareness".

If she can feel pain, as you are saying, and she is not aware, then she can't be suffering. How can you end suffering that isn't there?”


Not being mentally aware does NOT mean someone isn’t suffering or feeling pain. If she is completely mentally gone as you are trying to suggest, then what is the difference between her and someone who is brain dead who gets the plug pulled? Ya can’t have it both ways.”

“Nigal - I am not arguing that she is completely mentally gone. My argument is that she isn't.

You said that the people who want her tube pulled was doing it to end her suffering, so I referenced lee's "scientific" and "legal" evidence that shows that, in fact, the people arguing to pull her tube do not think she is suffering.

You said you want to end suffering and the people on your "side" think that way too, but lee's references dispute that.

You've lost track of who is saying what.
last edited: 3/25/05 10:47:01 AM”

“Sarge --


There is an easy resolution.

If she is aware, has capacity and her life should be prolonged,

and she is thirsty . .



then she can have something to drink when she can ask for it.


If she knows she is thirsty, and can ask for a glass of water . . .

I will enter the priesthood.”

““so I referenced lee's "scientific" and "legal" evidence that shows that, in fact, the people arguing to pull her tube do not think she is suffering.”

That is not what lee was saying. He was trying to explain what the extent of her mental faculties are. You are the one trying to connect the dots by using his words out of context.

“You said you want to end suffering and the people on your "side" think that way too, but lee's references dispute that.”

You need to read more carefully Sarge. Really. I never said I wanted to end her suffering. I never said I wanted her to die. I have said I want her to live and it is wrong to pull her tube. I have been able to not get emotional about this and I am able to disconnect myself from the whole thing to see why the people who are not against pulling her tube feel that way. I think it might be you who can‘t keep everyone‘s statements straight.”

“Nigal - the whole reason we got into this is you said the protestors were stupid.

So now you're saying she was suffering ...

Why would they be stupid if she is suffering?

Because they didn't convince you to their cause? There signs weren't meant for people on their "side". They are meant for people not on their side. How you were or were not drawn to them is irrelevant.

But how could you be convinced for their cause if you already were on their side?

Your statements have been very misleading.
last edited: 3/25/05 11:00:01 AM”

““Nigal - the whole reason we got into this is you said the protestors were stupid.”

No, that was the whole reason YOU got into this. :)

“So now you're saying she was suffering …”

Geezus man, READ!! READ!! What I said was…“Those who agree with pulling the feeding tube are not saying she should suffer. Their whole argument for pulling it is to end her suffering.”. The suffering OF HER LIFE, not from pulling the tube.


“Because they didn't convince you to their cause? There signs weren't meant for people on their "side". They are meant for people not on their side. How you were or were not drawn to them is irrelevant.”

It is a total guilt trip and they are trying to vilify those who do not agree with them. It is rhetoric and nothing more. Do they even need signs? Would someone Not somehow know what they were there for? Not likely. My statement of stupidity stands firm.

“Your statements have been very misleading. “

No not at all. You simply are not reading my actual words close enough while reading too much into them at the same time. I can see why this thread has gone some 10 pages now when everyone has to post 10 posts just to clarify one post.

And here I thought lee was just being unreasonable. LOL!”

“What is unreasonable and stupid would be protesting something without letting people know why you're there.

I'd love to see a protest where there is one big crowd, but no yelling - no signs - nothing. Just standing there quietly.

Maybe you could get both sides to do that simultaneously. They'd just stare at each other and nobody would know who is for what.

That would be interesting.”

“And here I thought lee was just being unreasonable. LOL!”
Nigal

I can feel the love from here.


Oh. And for the record. If your head was on Reese Witherspoon's body . .. I would make every effort to find a paper bag big and strong enough . . .”

“Hell, if my head were on her body I'd go buy a mirror and never leave the house. LOL!”

“Ya'll have a good friday.


good friday . .

get it?????”

“how can she be suffering, aware, or anything else if her brain is liquified? I say let her die but don't make it this long drawn out thing that it is. give her something like what they give death row inmates when they inject them w/ that stuff. whether or not she can be uncomfortable, i say err on the side of caution.”

“how can she be suffering, aware, or anything else if her brain is liquified?

Key word there is "if".”

“you pretty high, when your mouth is dry.”

“Sarge - just a friendly suggestion here. Take it for what it's worth.

You seem to be way too emotionally invested in a situation over which you have no control.

Take a break.”

“Aproximately 100,000 people die each year from malnutrition.

Most of these are children.”

“Yea, but they are not covered like Terri has been in the news so I could care less.

I only care about the news stories!”

“"In parts of Africa, women face a one in 16 risk of death because they do not receive the care they need when they are pregnant. By contrast, in most of Europe and North America, such a tragedy will hit only one woman in 4 000...

... Every death is a tragedy. The death of a young woman, who may have other children, is a multiple tragedy. The loss of the mother is often associated with the death of the infant for whom her life has been sacrificed, followed by the impaired health and nutrition of the remaining children...

...The leading risk factor of ill-health remains malnutrition. And the poor are often caught in the worst of traps, suffering from both malnutrition and intense exposure to infectious diseases. Separately, the effect of each is huge. Together, their impact is far greater than the sum of their parts.

Both are conditions of poverty. They arise from poverty and they keep people in poverty; not just for one generation, but for many generations.

In a well-nourished child, a common infectious disease is usually a passing illness. In a malnourished child, the same disease can precipitate life-long disabilities such as blindness. And a rapid sequence of common infection and malnutrition leads to death.

This is just another example of self-perpetuating poverty spirals. But remember that affordable tools exist to address almost all of them...

... One in every two deaths among young working age adults and children worldwide are caused by just six infectious diseases: AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis, measles, diarrhoeal diseases and respiratory diseases such as pneumonia. A person can be cured or protected from each one of these diseases for less than the cost of a bottle of aspirin. Half of these killers can be stopped for under 35 US cents, less than the cost of this morning's newspaper.

Or take another example: One of the most important interventions in interrupting the link between malnutrition and infection is vitamin A supplementation. Routine supplementation in the age range 6 to 72 months can reduce overall mortality by almost 25 per cent..."

Dr. Gro Harlem Brundtland
Director-General
World Health Organization Arlington, Virginia
21 June 1999

http://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/1999/english/19990621_arlington.html”

“Keep up the good fight, sarge.”

“Yes, WK. And I heard she is the first case like this. I wait for the time when I can watch the news again.”

“I never said I wanted her to die.
Nigal
11:50:33 AM
3/25/05

I want her to finish dying soon. Then I can watch the news again.”

“lots of people coming into the office asking for living wills and POAs.”

“I like the fact that I'm an organ donor but that my Mom could stop that from happening.

Gotta love this Country sometimes.”

“LAST NIGHT ON TV ON THE A&E CHANNEL

I guess no one saw the Terri story on A&E last night. I wish I wasn't half asleep, so I did not see the whole thing.

They said that many years ago when she was still responding to physical therapy, her husband wanted it stopped and had it stopped and would not allow flowers or anything positive in her room.

They also brought up that her husband is probably lying about Terri saying she would want to be "let go", because the discussion supposedly took place when she was in her early 20s and no one believes she was discussing that at that point in her life, so they think her husband is not to be believed. Also, if Terri did say she wanted to be "let go" at that age, people change their minds about things as they get older. I personally just can't bring myself to take his word having nothing to do with what should be done, I just see no reason to believe him with no proof.

They did show video of a doctor with his hand on top of Terri's leg in the air and she was holding it up and pressing against the doctors pressure on her leg to keep it up in the air. I don't know how old that video is.

If it were up to me, I'd rather have my parents make the decision about my life since they don't have an agenda like a husband may who already had a distaste for you before you became in a vegetative state.”

“"I want her to finish dying soon. Then I can watch the news again.”

I am just totally over saturated on the issue too.”

“I'd gladly pay you tuesday for that cold can of beer today.”

“according to the Taltos Book of Yursak...Your not really alive, unless you have have suckled from the women of the tribe.

So, have they suckled or are they just playing at it...Now that would be newsworthy.”

“vioLIN - I'm not emotionally invested at all.
I bet you wouldn't have said that if I was fighting on your side of the cause.”

“stove - Thanks! Jump in ...

lipstick - I've heard that too about her therapy.”