The Terri Schiavo Thread

“Um... Are you serious?”

“mtnsteve - I am no more injecting my ideals into this than you are. On one hand you say we know her wishes, and you also said "Is this the way she would want to die? We have no way of knowing ...". You're right. We have no way of knowing. Yet, you want to "inject your ideals" into this. I guess it's only ok to "inject ideals" if they are your ideals?

You seem to want to argue this as if only half of the information is valid, the half that supports your "ideals". The fact is, there are too many questions, too many uncertanties, too many doubts as to who said what. The only thing we know for sure is that there are doubts.”

“Watch it mister, she has a ferocious dog!
last edited: 3/27/05 1:34:18 PM”

“oh man, im jealous. mt steve is off sarges ignorelist”

“look 5 posts before me, ms. bb is there. i didnt confuse him with budder (or parkay)”

“Sorry Crash Bang, your quite right.

Hey BB, good to see you drop in again, you've been missed.”

“by who?”

“Pha, you mean me? I figure it's like anything else that is being worked on by scientists. You know they are working on all kinds of things, but until something they researched works by many repeated trails, you don't hear about it on the news.

I'm not really sure what goes into transplanting a brain or stimulating parts of the brain that make it work certain areas.

I'm not sure if the scientist are currently working on stimulating parts of the brain to work. Who knows? Aren't they working on someting already concerning the brain to stimulate certain areas or replace dead brain tissue? I know this stem of the brain may be something totally different, but still, who knows.

You may not hear about scientists working on all kinds of things, then one day they announce they have a cure for something or have a piece of the body they made that can replace a damaged part like with hip replacement or what they call the ecluder (valve) on the heart.

I never heard about replacing a persons face with skin from someone elses face and when they announced it, that was news to me.”

“"That is a justification RL of your view. This doesn't answer the question. What would Jesus do? I know it sounds like pop culture phrase but it has to be the central question in a christian's life." - Nigal

First off, sorry I didn't respond sooner. I had ham and yams to cook.

My goal as a Christian is not to do exactly what Jesus would do. It is to have a strong relationship with my creator and to live a just life.

There are many instances in life in which there are a range of good or neutral choices.

Presumably, Jesus would choose one of the really good ones. However, I might choose another good one or a neutral or even a bad one.

This is one of those situations that is so gray that the choice is morally neutral. There is no good choice. If Jesus chose to keep her alive, he'd be doing harm to the husband. If he chose to take out the tube, he'd be doing a disservice to the parents.

I'd also add that context can have a lot to do with what decision is made. It is impossible to say what Jesus would do because he is not an obvious, direct player in the drama.

I would also present to you that it is possible to have differences of opinion with God/Jesus. This does not preclude truth, but it allows for a meaningful relationship to exist.

Finally, the direct answer is that - if I had to guess - Jesus would have allowed her to die during the initial illness and never gotten to this point.”

“I heard one doctor on TV say that she only has 20% of her brain remaining. The rest has changed to spinal fluid. He said there has never been anyone in history that has recovered from such a state.

The whole thing is very sad. I'd bet that the majority of families have fights and bickering over almost anything, but this is way over the top. It's a shame it had to get to this point.”

“reformed lurker - I know this is a bit off topic, but can I ask you something? I've never heard a Christian say 2 of the things you've said, and I want to ask you about one of them.

You said "My goal as a Christian is not to do exactly what Jesus would do. It is to have a strong relationship with my creator and to live a just life."

Doesn't the Bible teach us (through Jesus' teachings) exactly how to have that meaningful relationship with God? And isn't that way to obey Him? (ie - do as He commands, do as Jesus taught, do as He would do since he did come here to teach us how to live so that we could have a meaningful relationship with God)”

“I even went out and bought a new candle to light upon her death.

Sarge, and what will you do when she's dead? Don't answer that, I really don't care. I'm just being mean. I have to go fold laundry now, bye.”

“The R.E.C.O. System (Republican Economic COntrol System), is again coming full circle with Terri. She's in this position due to unbridaled consumerism, a war waged upon us by big business and thier never ending intrusion on our subliminal thoughts through advertising, which is a byproduct of the American Conservative Capitalistic Philosphy of "everything must be perfect", or "Keeping up with the joneses".

If that chick wasn't made to feel she was fat by the ideals set forth by the "church - goin'. republican votin' douchebags that vote for morons", she wouldn't be in this situation. Ironically, it's those same dumbarses that are out there lighting candles to save her vegitative corpse, and trying to use the federal and state governments (republican dominated) to excersize the prolonging of her life, moral and political conflicts be damed!

It's like watching a bunch of retarded hamsters running around a cage; amusing for the first 5 minutes, then very saddening the rest of the duration.

Conservatives, and especially those who protest "moral" events like the Terri Schiavo Fad Event, are nothing more than moldy pond scum floating aimlessly on a river polluted by the very people they vigorously vote for.

Happy Easter.”

“sarge, I can agree w/RL as living a life not exactly as Jesus, because maybe he would spend more time helping people than an ordinary person might, so you can live a life being a good person, but there are certain degrees in doing so.

People that live more of a Christ like life are nuns and priests who devote all their time to God and his teachings w/little possessions. Not everyone has to do that to live a good christian life.

Like my friends, they give out sandwiches in the cold to the homeless. I wouldn't go near them. They are sometimes very ill with TB or who knows what else and may attack you. I may decide to do a good service in another way. You don't have to live your life doing something "good" all the time to be a decent person or live as a decent Christian.”

“lh - My impression of Jesus wasn't that he stood on a corner handing out sandwiches to people with TB. He did do other things with his time. He was a carpenter for example. lh, can I ask you something else then? Does your church teach you that only nuns and priests live like Christ? Where did you learn that from?

rl - I am still interested in your opinion if you're willing. Thanks.”

“lh, I'd encourage you to read Romans 8:28-29, Genesis 1:26, Ephesians 4:22, Ephesians 4:13, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 6:9-11, in context. There are many more like them.”

“I don't know enough about this situation to comment. I do know when I was 19, they let my mother die from a cancerous brain tumor. She already had a mastectomy. I was grateful to the surgeon, despite being left to care for 2 very young children & a teen until my older brother finished collage. I grew up fast.”

“Sarge, we all have certain topics or issues we have trouble with when it comes to religion. This is obviously one of Reformed Lurker’s. I was simply trying to stimulate thought as to what Jesus might want. And in the end we should be honest enough to ask, “What are the ramifications if a christian doesn’t agree with the scriptures on this one? Is a christian guilty of some sin if they don‘t jump up and down or protest?”. The only time I think it can be hurtful is if someone furthers or propagates their views that are contrary to the teachings in the scriptures. Sometimes taking the 5th or saying, “I really don’t know.”, is the best way to go.

It’s all good to discuss and explore all sides but when it comes to times like these where 1) I really have no power over the issue other than prayer, and 2) it’s really not my business all I am really able to do is simply say, “Baruch Hashem, may His will be done.”. .”

““What are the ramifications if a christian doesn’t agree with the scriptures on this one? Is a christian guilty of some sin if they don‘t jump up and down or protest?”.

Nigal - Not agreeing with scriptures has the same ramifications on any topic. Not understanding scripture is a different story. Of course a christian isn't guilty of some sin if they don't "jump up and down" or protest. I'm not sure why you are telling me this. Did I give the impression that I thought they were?

As far as having no power other than prayer, I completely disagree. I agree that prayer is absolutely the best thing that we can do, but we also have other responsibilities which can be powerful. For example, we can vote accordingly. We can talk to others about this.

To say it's "not really [your] business" sounds like an oversimplification. Protecting the innocent is not something we are to ignore. We could always say "it's not my business" when the innocent are being savagely attacked. Yes, "may His will be done" ... but God asked us to take up the battle. God doesn't want us to be lazy on these matters. It is God's will that we fight the fight and spread the teachings of the Gospel.”

““Of course a christian isn't guilty of some sin if they don't "jump up and down" or protest. I'm not sure why you are telling me this. Did I give the impression that I thought they were?”

No, that was me thinking out loud.

“To say it's "not really [your] business" sounds like an oversimplification.”

Not really. This is a squabble between a husband and his in-laws. They have appealed to the government, the courts, and I believe Michael Isner at Disney too (not really). The decisions have been made and everyone needs to live with it for better or for worse. The people of Florida need to remember this come election time for sure. Note though, I said the people of Florida need to do this. Nigal sittin’ in Ohio has no sway over Florida, nor should I.

“Yes, "may His will be done" ... but God asked us to take up the battle. God doesn't want us to be lazy on these matters.”

God gave us certain things to do and certain things to abstain from. Again, are we failing God for not jumping up and down? I don’t think so. Michael Shivo bares the burden of any sin or crime or whatever. Maybe the judges to a degree. It’s not my call. I’ve been very interested in hearing what Torah has to say about these issues but just couldn’t live with starting this type of thread on yet another board I like.

“It is God's will that we fight the fight and spread the teachings of the Gospel.”

As a non-christian I can only say, I think that would be the Church’s will. Just a thought from an outsider.”

“Trying to clarify some things Nigal.

You're telling us what God wants.
You're not a Christian.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to express what you believe - I am just making sure I understand. You are telling Christians how God wants them to live, but you are not a Christian. Is that right?

==> More specifically, Christians believe Jesus is Lord, and you brought up Jesus. (WWJD?) So when I say God, I mean Jesus.
last edited: 3/28/05 8:03:46 AM”

““Trying to clarify some things Nigal.

You're telling us what God wants.
You're not a Christian.”

Not in the way you are taking it. God is very clear on nearly everything He would like us to do. On the ones that are not crystal clear we have tradition that clarifies it. The only time I hinted at what God wants us to do is when I said, “God gave us certain things to do and certain things to abstain from.”. Is this true? Yes, for the christian and the non christian alike. I’m not saying “You should do this because God says so!”. It’s up to the person weather they do this or that.


“I'm not saying you don't have a right to express what you believe - I am just making sure I understand. You are telling Christians how God wants them to live, but you are not a Christian. Is that right?”

Again, not in the way you are saying. I have also had words for Jews as well as Muslims too based on their own scriptures.”

“Thanks. I just wanted to know where you were coming from.”

“Left field...”

“;-)”

“Sarge and Nigal!

I'll throw out some ideas to spur some discussion and hopefully answer a couple of questions...

In the Old Testament there was a covenant made between God and his chosen people. They "wrestled" with God and came to a bit of a truce - God was distant, but gave the law to follow.

Within Catholic theology, this original covenant is still considered operable. The Israelites negotiated a framework for living with God. While it was a bit one-sided, they negotiated the rules of conduct with God through years of give-and-take. This opens the possibility of living a good life that might not be exactly how God might have lived it.

It also brings up the danger that one might follow the law, but ignore certain important moral issues that are present in society.

This brings me to Jesus - The New Covenant. One of the great consequences of God coming to live as a human being and sending the Holy Spirit is that God, according to Catholic theology, is continuously at work in the world.

So, being a good Catholic requires one to read and understand and follow the scriptures (codified original tradition). But that is not enough. It also requires one to understand that God can show him/herself today and that God has helped people to understand throughout at least the last 2000 years of history.

I am not a Biblical strict constructionist. I think that the Bible laid down core principles, but it did not speak to feeding tubes and ventilators and cloning, etc. The correct way to approach these issues is to study scripture (law) and tradition (recorded give-and-take between the church and God in history) and the opinions of others in the church/world (God's relationship with others in present time), pray (Our own relationship with God) , and then make as good of a decision as is possible in a given circumstances.

In the Catholic view, at least, God will help a conscientious person make this decision.”

“lurker - I can't even respond to that. I am not a Catholic, and I certainly do not believe that God goes through a "give-and-take" with us. So, your premise is not something I can accept in order to respond to the rest of that.”

“Quote from Reuters ...

Schiavo, 41, passed her ninth day without nourishment and Gibbs said she was declining rapidly. "They've begun to give her morphine drip for the pain.

I sure hope they didn't wait this long to give her pain medication.”

“Sarge, I agree with you on that one. I'm certainly no Bible scholar, and I'm not aware of any give-and-take by God. I thought it was pretty much his law, which was formed to help us become like him.

Anyone want my two cents on Terri Shiavo? I think her parents are selfish, in wanting her to live. Its an awfully long shot to think she would recover, or have any new technology in her lifetime to help her recover. She has no quality of life, and I hope she goes to meet her creator peacefully, and her family can somehow, someday, come to peace as well.

This spurred a converstaion with my BF, however. I told him to pull the plug (or feeding tube) on me if I had no quality of life and little chance for recovery. People need to move on with their lives. We're only put on this earth for a short time, and if I'm not helping someone else in this world (as I am a servent of God), then there's not much reason for me to be here.”

““In the Old Testament there was a covenant made between God and his chosen people. They "wrestled" with God and came to a bit of a truce - God was distant, but gave the law to follow.”

The Jewish perspective is a bit different. God gave salvation and the law is how the Jews (and the Gentiles as it applies to them) show their gratitude. Remember, Abraham followed the law even before it was given on Sinai. Many are mistaken when they think the law is followed in order to gain salvation. Salvation is a given (which can be hard to grasp when the christian theology of original sin is brought in later). How we show our gratitude to God’s gift is through the law; both oral and written.

Say you wrack your brains to give the most important person in your life that perfect gift. You give them the gift and anticipate their reaction. Which do you hope for the most? There are many reactions….

“Oh it’s perfect! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!”…keeping all of the law.
“Wow! What a great gift! Thanks!”…keep part of the law.
“Gee, thanks.”…keep a bit of the law.
“---------------”...no reply or thanks. Keep none of the law.

The law is also the perfect plan to a long and happy life full of strength and closeness to the Creator. There’s really no give and take. God gave it, and we take it…to whatever degree of thankfulness we have. God does know best for us and He makes this clear in the Torah when we are told it will stand for all of eternity no matter what happens. Even in the Messianic age the law will be followed.

So what do we do when the gray areas pop up? We accord to what is known as “building a fence around Torah”. It is basically erroring on the side of caution. Many many Mitzvah that seem silly have come from this concept. Things like Jews not carrying anything in your hands in public comes from the commandment to not work on Shabbat.
So when someone wants their wife to die I have to error on the side of caution and say, Maybe it’s best if she not be allowed to die.”.

Now if you send me a love gift of just $29.99 I will send you a prayer cloth soaked in my own sweat. Hurry! Supplies are limited and this offer will not be extended. :)”

“may you always be smiling and if that day comes, that you no longer smile, I hope your BF or whomever has the strength, conviction, compassion to allow your wishes to become manifest.”

“SG - To what level is it a long-shot that she'd recover to? From what I've seen, she was learning how to swallow on her own before Michael made her stop therapy. There are many scientists who disagree with the assessment there is (was) little hope for her to get better. Yes, she wouldn't have a "full" recovery. But what level of intelligence is necessary before a parent should be forced to not be allowed to feed their child? Selfishness is personified in Michael's actions (and inactions). He "remembered" her death wish after his new love affair - EIGHT years after this happened. Her parents are willing to devote their lives to her because the love her. If that's considered selfishness ... God help us all.”

“OK, here’s a story for ya that really set me on my heals. The guy I take care of is kind of like Steven Hawking. He’s got a fully functioning mind in a bad body. He’s not a genius and is what I would call ‘socially retarded’ due to growing up in the MR/DD system.

I was feeding him once and he was having trouble and was coughing and coughing and coughing. I joked and told him there would be no choking on my shift and I’d have a hard time picking him and his wheelchair up to give him the Heimlich maneuver. He just looked at me and shook his head. I asked, What?”. and he punched into his voice box…”Let me go. I know where I’m going.”. I was stunned and then told him the same thing I tell everyone including the Shivo family; “Put it in writing then!”.”

“Sarge, I guess I'm making my judgement w/o being aware of the information you have. Still, if I'm not functioning on the level of being able to communicate with loved ones, I don't want to be around.

Stikmon, thanks. Let's hope dear BF and family "remember" my wishes if somethign like this ever happens to me.”

“can I pull your plug?”

“You can try ...”

“Selfishness - How much money has been spent to keep Terri alive for 15 years.

OK for the first 2 years there is reasonable hope of recovery, and for those 2 years she DID get treatment. The best treatment that could be found.

So how much has been spent on the last 13 years, and in the Courts, and on Lawyers?

How might that money have been used for the good of mankind ? instead of spending it all in some futile hope that <1>Their daughter would recover.

Forget Africa, or the Asian Tsunami, how many children could have been saved right here at home if the Schindlers had put their efforts and resources to help?

How about spending some of it to promote education about Bulemeia which is what caused the loss of their daughter. To perhaps prevent other parents and husbands from suffering as they have.

13 years of wasted opportunity - really sad.”

“Wow manuka! That is selfishness. You've outlined selfishness very nicely.

ps - She was recovering until Michael ordered the therapy stopped, right about the time is love affair started with another woman.”

“She was recovering huh Sarge, you know this how?”

“sarge and the other women..that eats at you so bad doesn't it...lol again that is all you are worried about. You could care frigging less about Terri. You bring it up all the time about his affair even when people are talking about other things.
Once you get over your hate of this man you will feel better.”

“Little trouble of timing there Sarge.

2 years, no progress, stop therapy
3 years, argue with parents move out of parents house over disagreement on how to spend Malpractice award on Terri's treatment.

Do you think he was shacked up with the girlfriend in the parents house ?? and they were OK with that as long as they had a say in spending the money ??

So at least a year AFTER treatment was stopped, he was still with the parents, and presumably NOT shacked up with girlfriend.

5 years moves in with girlfriend. This is 2 years AFTER he moved out of parents house, and 3 years after decision to stop treatment.

This is not college level math.”

“y2 - Research. Testimony. Hearsay.

Hearsay by the way is what the court used to determine what she said. Is hearsay permissable in courts now? Neat! I'm going to start suing the pants off of people and get some "witnesses" to back me up. This is a great new precedent.”

“Ewker - Once you get over your hate for Terri, you will feel better. Why do you want to kill her? Why do you want to shove your fist down her throat and rip out her organs? Why do you want to fry up her body parts for food? What kind of sick person are you?”

“We're still going on this? I've been gone for more than a week.

No one's talking about killing her, we're talking about letting her die a natural death.”

“What happened to Terri in the first place, how did she get to this state (and I don't mean Flordia)?”

“Bison - Not feeding somebody is not "letting them die a natural death". There are plenty of people who cannot feed themselves. Let's start with babies ...”

“SG - That's one of the many things that is up for debate. According to nurses that took care of her, Michael was abusive even after she was in this state. It's all hearsay at this point.”

“No, that's not what I'm asking. Was she in a car accident? Did she have an illness that caused brain damage? What originally caused the brain damage? How did she end up in the hospital in the first place? Should be a pretty easy question to answer, seems pretty non-controversial.”

“I think she had a heart attack brought on by bolimia(SP?). Some say Michale threw her donw the stairs too. We don't know.”

“lol@sarge...no hate on my part for Terri. I already said rest in peace. Your the one with a holier than thou attitude agaisnt her husband. Even the courts saw that he was themost regular visitor to see her. Not her parents but her husband. Sorry you can't see what is really happening other than you hate for this man her husband who was with her more than her parents ever were.”