The Terri Schiavo Thread

“Is she in pain? I thought her brain wasn't working. Are you telling me it only works when it suits your position on this?”

“Is feeding someone through tubes natural?”

“It's my pain you fool....DUH”

“Damn! I thought I was part of the religous right, does this mean I'll be outcast? 80

BTW - Somebody save this thread, I Bison, hereby state, that if I am incapacitated in any way that keeps me from making decisions about medical treatment, including any treatment that would keep me alive by artificial means, If I am married I want my spouse to make any decisions regarding such care.”

“mtnsteve - Feeding through a tube is no less natural than feeding with a spoon or cooking meat on a grill. Natural would be us eating fruit off the vine and eating raw meat.”

“Actually good point...what does my signature line have to do with her pain since she doesn't feel any?”

“In case there is any doubt as to my position (not that anyone cares - but I don't want to give the wrong impression) -- I am not saying I disagree with the position to remove the feeding tube. What I disagree with is the husband's right to make that decision. He broke their marriage vows. That is my only concern.”

“Mtnsteve, yes, feeding tubes are a routine thing for people with illnesses where they are unable to feed themselves, or to eat enough to get proper nutrition. The tube is inserted into the stomach and nutritional liquids are slowly poured into the tube. The issue is not about the feeding tube itself, but whether a brain-dead person should be fed in this manner, and indeed, whether that person is brain dead. And I don't think any of us can do more than offer an uninformed opinion.”

“Your argument reminds me of those women that cant have children, so they go on fertility treatments then have a litter and say, "It's Gods will".


Noooooo, God didn't think you should have children she he/she gave you a litter to teach you a lesson.”

“But.... he wouldn't have been breaking his marriage vows if his right to make decisions about his wife's care hadn't of been interfered with in the first place.”

“mtnsteve - YOU are the one who brought up God's will. That is why I called it a straw man. Duh! Maybe you should follow along with your own posts.”

“Geobeet...I agree with you. It's not the feeding tube that irks me, it's the idea that she is being kept alive when her brain is dead.”

“Bison - But they WERE interfered with. Until death do us part. That's how it goes. It doesn't say "unless things don't go your way".”

“I think it’s funny when people use fertility drugs to get pregnant and end up having six kids at one time. When asked why they don’t abort a few of them they say, “It’s god’s will!”. No, it’s God’s will that you have NO kids otherwise you wouldn’t have needed the drugs! LOL!”

“The Christian Right made this an argument about Gods will long before you posted this.



I gotta run to work...seeeee ya”

“Now Nigal and agree on something



This is getting scary................”

“HPM, your post brought a tear to my eye. That is the hell a person must go through and could well be the hell this husband is going through. You clearly illustrated it.

And let me add, I commend you for wanting to honor your wife's wish in a tough, tough situation.
last edited: 3/18/05 9:27:34 AM”

“mtnsteve - No. You said they are trying to CIRCUMVENT God's will. As if God's will is for her to die. -- As if YOU know God's will. That's what you said. Look at your own post.”

“Could it be God’s will that He gave doctors the talent and gifts to give her life?”

“Geez Lizs . ..it brought a tear to my eye too .. .

I was thinking:

RUN TREEBAIT RUN . . ..HE'S GOT A PILLOW . . . .RUN!!! ROLL OUT OF THE BED . . . SHAKE YOUR HEAD . . ..DO SOMETHING ..>THE PILLOWS GETTING CLOSER . . ..CLOSER . .. .CLOSEMPPHHHHH.......”

“Damn Lee. lol!

But in all seriousness...you're next.

Kidding kidding.

It scares the hell out of me Lizs. I see so much pain and misery out there and just how easily and seemingly randomly it happens to people.

What scares me more is if I'm made of stern enough stuff to back up my words. Talk as we well know is cheap but to actually be there and be faced with the decision....

Yikes.

But something else is buried in this fight over her life. And that is how she got there.

This wasn't some out of the blue heart attack. She had a heart attack because she was bulimic. A disorder that was unheard of before the 1900's and only identified in 1930. Pursuit of a fashionable body shape and shame over how you naturally are elevated to a mental disorder.

Why isn't that the big discussion? Why is the cause of all this misery and strife less important than the end?”

“I think bulemia is discussed quite a bit. It's not like it's a dead issue. The Terri case is a pressing issue that needs resolution now. There is no reason why 2 things cannot be discussed at the same time.

We discuss war and rain forests - no need to wait until there is no more war to start on the rain forests ...”

“It is discussed Sarge, I don't dispute that.

My point is that all the news articles I've seen all state that she had a heart attack due to a chemical imbalance with no mention of the bulimia in relation to this case. It divorces the cause from the effect and gives the impression that this was something that kinda came out of the blue.

Granted they are two diffent issues and both deserve attention but it seems that the cause isn't really being addressed as it relates to this case.

I would think that it would get airtime in parallel to the right to live/die issue.”

“Yeah, this might be a good opportunity to bring forth some of the inherent dangers with bulemia. Good point.”

““I think bulemia is discussed quite a bit. It's not like it's a dead issue.

Emphasis mine .. .pun was Sarge's.


Ironic.


Force feeding a 90&% dead bulemic.


Can she reguritate the stuff from the feeding tube.

If she has any level of consciousness at all this must surely be the 7th level of hell for her.

Near death because of an eating disorder . ..and force fed to be kept alive in vegetative state.



Sarge, you seem to know a lot about this. Any idea why her parents hate her so much.

Did they abuse her as a child too??? Surely the pyschological imprint that could put someone in a bulemic state could easily have come from demanding, control freak parents who criticized her weight.

They hated her and abused her as a kid, set her up for catastrohpic health issues which should have killed her, and are now force feeding her to keep her alive.

These two are charmers.

They should be on death row.”

“lee - That line of questioning deserves the following response:”

“Till death do us part...
Hmmmm, what is the divorce rate in the states today? How many of us have cheated on our spouses? I once worked with a man who wore a cross around his neck. He was a young married cathlic man with a couple of kids. Also, a couple of ladies on the side. Yet, he was preaching to me? I've seen this many times.
I am sure the fate of a guy like Terri's husband would be a few hail Marry's and a large donation. He's a good man.

Modern medical practices are decent. We can keep people alive far longer than we have in the past. Sometimes far too long.

My thoughts... pull the plug and see what her reaction is. She will probably be smiling inside knowing that she will no longer be in a living hell. Maybe even match all her organs to someone who needs them. Would that make it OK?
ps... just for the record, don't keep me plugged in 14 years.”

“We now live in a society where you can be a "good man" and cheat on your wife. How refreshing.”

“Seriously Sarge:

As you said .. .we can discuss two things at once.

let's discuss the root causes of bulemia.

Its a pyschological disease with physical manifestations, no?


Perhaps rooted in feeling of inadequate self-worth, self-image etc?? An addictive behavioral thing. . . .


I would never go so far as to suggest that all psychological ills stem from parents, upbringing, childhood stress, feelings of inadequcy from the parents etc. That would clearly be unfair.

But it is true in some cases, yes? Maybe even most?? iw would never want to suggest that Shiavo's parents deliberate created a bulemic daughter. Really. They couldn't possibly have known the physical manisfestation that that their mental abuse produced. They say mental abuse can be worse than physical. That gives you something to think about.

So they clearly didn't intend for their daughter to become a bulemic, let alone have a health crisis related heart attack from it. God no. they are just caring . . well, perhaps a litle too over-zealous, parents.

Yup. Could you imagine growing up a house hold with two folks who have the diposition to keep their daughter alive on a feeding tube for years. What kind of a house of pyshchological horrors must that have been.

And here they are, still having their way with her. Still torturing her.

It is hell. hell on earth. Every day just enough to be kept alive, hanging on for eternity. Like Prometheius, who was killed every day by having his liver pecked out, only to be reserected overnightbecause he was immortal. Chained to a rock for eternity because he gave fire to humnas and sooomed by Zeus to be tortured.

I wonder what Terry did to piss her parents off so much?? i wonder why the hate her so much??? Its a lot of hate to keep torturing her like this.


I think it was Hercules as one of his labors that finally set Prometheus free. But my memory of Bullfinch's escapes me. . . .”

“how the parents must feel.

I mean . ..there she is. Their hatred for her . ..well, maybe that is the wrong word . . .guilt perhaps? is guilt better? The feelings of guilt for the pyschological torture that ultimately put her on the path to her on destruction must be eating them alive.

To her let her die would be tantamount to a confession . . ."we killed our daughter through pyschological torture when she was a child and teen."

They can't let her die . .or they would be murderers . ..

Once they staked out that position, there was no going back.


Now it is purely political . .now it is an engine of right wing right to lifers . . .the Schindlers probably have no control over their own destiny at this point . ..


May God rest her soul . . .and have mercy on theirs.”

“Guilt, hatred?
That wasn't a jump I was prepared to make.

According to the article I linked to...The feeding tube was surgicly inserted directly into her stomach. She can't even swallow, put food in her mouth and she gags.

But do agree with Lee, this case is now a political tool but I'd say of both sides. The family is just a convienient vehicle and will discarded once the idealogues make their point.”

“FYI - Judge Greer says the feeding tube can be removed despite the congressional subpoena.”

“Removing the feeding tube will not result in death right away. She could live from one to two weeks without it, from what I hear. It was removed at one time for about a week before it was reinserted.”

“I hope this doesn't go into an off, on, off, on, off, on deal.”

“I think I'd like a feeding tube. Just think of how much time you could save on the trail! I mean Bison would be still waiting on his Mary Janes dinner and I'd be sitting on a log picking my nose and my feeding tube would just be slurping away. No pot. No stove. No spoon.

Wonder if I could shove an Enertia meal down the tube?”

“You'd have to carry liquid food though Nigal, too much weight.”

“No, shove it in dry and then drink water. My body heat would cook it right in my tummy. HA!”

“Rehydrate in your stomach? You'd be fartin' up a storm...”

“And I don't now?”

“You guys are awesome.

Even this thread has become a fart thread.”

“Almost nothing is sacred around here...”

“Let's see, for a weeklong hike you'd need about three cases of Ensure.

You also have to keep the thing clean - flush it out, etc.

Sounds like great fun.”

“i find it absurd that our pets can die with dignity, but not human beings.

the court (a republican judge, mind you) found by clear and convincing evidence that terry would not want her life prolonged if she was in a vegetative state.

yet, politicians, primarily republicans, have used this unfortunate situation as a tool to further a political agenda.

this isn't about the husband, politics, the parents, or anyone else... this should be strictly about terry and her wishes. the court has made the necessary findings, yet, politicians want to block it.

i don't understand, republicans say government is too powerful, it's too large, yet some republicans want the government in the bedrooms of consenting adults, they want the government involved in the relationship of a husband and wife, and they want the government to determine whether someone should die with dignity.

this is a deeply personal, intimiate situation that has been manipulated for political gain.

my thoughts and prayers are with terry.”

“All that may be true jmitch, but a CHEATING husband shouldn't be the one making life and death decisions for somebody who cannot speak for themself. That's just wrong, and somebody should stop it. We're talking about life and death here. What he has done should make anybody sick.”

“sarge,

i see your point, but i don't know the circumstances about his alleged cheating. it was the judge who made the decision based upon terry's wishes, not the husband's or the parents. obviously, if the husband was also against removing life support, there wouldn't be a case. very tough situation.”

“Better to let politicians (and whatever religious group holds sway at the moment) make life and death decisions for you....

yeah, right.”

“Hey, has anyone seen Million Dollar Baby?

My grandfather was really sick, in and out of hospitals and nursing homes, for about 2 years. He had no quality of life because he couldnt do anything for himself, including walking, eating, bathing, using the restroom..., he was in excrutiating pain and frankly wanted to die. He was a strong Christian and was not afraid of death. It came down to the point where he was basically surviving with dialysis and an oxygen tube. He and his wife decided to stop dialysis and see how long he went. Well, he lived 3 days. He died in his sleep and is no longer suffering. I have no doubt in my mind that that was the right decision. If a person has no reason to live any longer, than why force it? If I was brain-dead, I wouldnt want my family to have to suffer and "hope" that I would get better. The fact is that brain-dead people dont just recover. Why hold on to them for selfish reasons?

I dont think this is an issue about infedelity.”

“I'm definitely thinking more about getting a Living Will.”

“embear - you are assuming she wants to die - you don't know that.

This IS an issue about infedelity. This man is claiming to be her husband. Legally, he is, but if the least bit of common sense is used, he should not be. Why is this so hard to understand? If she was not in this state, and he was doing what he is doing, would he win any judgement against her? Heck no!”

“I think this happened to her... 14 years ago?

Is that right?”