“I don't think it makes sense to ask Sarge or anyone else to stop trying to convince people. It's not like he is knocking on anyone's your or coming into your house to prosletize. He is engaging in debate and in debate we argue our points and attempt to be persuasive. Hopefully we also hear and appreciate the others points.

Even if we are simply exchanging ideas, doesn't it make sense that we should try to present our ideas as coherent and with solid foundation.

I appreciate Sarge's thoughtful answer. His rebuttal pointed to a place where I had poorly articulated my perspective and failed to make a critical distinction. Speaking with people who disagree with me is often more challenging and educational thatn speaking with people who agree.”

“pedxing - You obviously have done some research, so you probably already trust certain sources. For those that I haven't, I just want to provide an alternative point of view on the date of the writing of John. I find it difficult to believe that papyrus fragments were found about the same time it was written. More logically, it was written prior to when they were found.

http://www.carm.org/questions/written_after.htm

The gospel of John is supposed to have been written by John the apostle. It is written from the perspective of an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life. The John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 135 contains portions of John 18:31-33, 37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt and a considerable amount of time is needed for the circulation of the gospel before it reached Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's.”

“No matter which estimates we use, we end up with decades between the death of Christ and the recording of any of the New Testament texts - even eye witness testimony is approached with great caution given that time span. Even more so in the case of interested parties, and Christ's legacy was already contested. Paul's faction was already experienced marked friction with other factions.”

“Some people say religion is based on faith.

I have been fortunate enough experience a couple miracles.”

“do tell.”

“pedxing - Let me recap if I may because this seems to be getting off track. This originated when you argued my point that we should submit to the teachings of Jesus. You asked me to show you where He said that people were going to write about Him and that we should follow those teachings. I responded with some verses that, when read in context and in total, does just that. Then you questioned the source, which is the New (and Old) Testament writings.

My question to you is what source would you accept? Do you accept the Old Testament as valid but not the New because of the timing of the writing? Do you accept neither? If you accept neither then my only recourse would be to point to another book which quotes Jesus' teachings. I'm not aware of such a text that is generally accepted by Christians. So I guess what I'm saying is that your question by it's very nature is impossible to answer if you can't accept the premise of the question which requires a belief that Jesus existed and there was writings about His teachings. If you're unwilling to accept the very text in question then what's the point of asking it?”

“The point pedxing is trying to make is the the new testament was wriiten so far after the death of christ that all of it is suspect. The fact christ fullfills any propheseies from the old testment was created by rewriting the christ story to make it fit. In fact there is very strong evidence that the entire figure of christ was made up by Paul to start his own religion so he could get power, Ala Joseph Smith and the Mormons”

“I feel really, really bad for Terri’s family. So I was really pleased to see they have put all this behind them and moved on…

“If you expressed your support to Terri Schiavo and her parents fight to keep her alive, you may begin to receive a steady stream of solicitations, according to a Local 6 News report.

Terri Schiavo's parents have agreed to sell their list of supporters to a direct-mailing firm, Local 6 News reported.
The company, Response Unlimited pays about $150 a month for 6,000 names and $500 a month for 6,000 e-mail addresses.
A spokesperson for the Schindlers confirmed that they had agreed to sell the information, but won't say for how much.”

http://www.local6.com/news/4328068/detail.html

Right to lifers turn right to profit. Scumbags…”

“Terri's siblings - transcript.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152865,00.html”

“Will the siblings be getting a cut of the money or is their 15 minutes of fame enough for them?”

“Actually my point was that embracing Christ didn't require embracing the inerracancy of the Bible.

Subsequently, I clarified my points to make it clear that the New Testemant offers a very particular re-evaluation of the Old Testemant. Many Old-testament rules are nullified in the new-testament (esp. by Paul), so that the obligations set down by obedience to the Christian Bible are very very different then the obligations of the the Hebrew Bible.

Anyway, I'll try to let Terry rest. I probably won't open this thread again, but will address these issues if they come up elsewhere (and I notice them).”

“Howard Dean, DNC leader, announced that the DNC will use Republican's position on the Schiavo case in the upcoming campaign.

How sad.

The Party of no ideas, comes up with another bad one.
last edited: 4/16/05 6:31:42 PM”

“

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Reports Cite No Abuse of Schiavo
Florida Welfare Agency Investigated Dozens of Complaints

ORLANDO -- In the four years after Michael Schiavo won the right to remove his wife's feeding tube, the state's social welfare agency investigated 89 complaints of abuse but never found that he or anybody else harmed Terri Schiavo, records released late Friday show.

The state Department of Children and Families repeatedly concluded that Michael Schiavo ensured his wife's physical and medical needs were met, provided proper therapy for her and had no control over her money. They also found no evidence that he beat or strangled her, as his detractors have repeatedly charged.

The 45 pages of confidential abuse reports made public by court order show that despite the litany of complaints, investigators never found that Terri Schiavo had been abused.
[...]
The records show that DCF took seriously its duty to investigate abuse allegations, which became familiar fodder on the Internet: Terri Schiavo was dirty and unkempt. She did not receive proper dental care or rehabilitative therapy. She was kept in isolation. Her husband beat her and broke her bones. He wanted her dead for her money or to remarry. He pumped her full of insulin, hoping to kill her. He often asked, "When will (she) die?" Her lips were cracked and dry.
[...]
But DCF investigators looked into the charges and closed them as unfounded with such comments as "the spouse has always been courteous and very compassionate toward his wife" and "all her needs being met."
[...]
last edited: 4/18/05 9:36:41 AM”

“Still very sad, either way you look at it.



My uncle was given a feeding tube last week. He has pancreatic and stomach cancer, and has not really been able to eat for quite a while. They're hoping he can get enough nutrition from the feeding tube to increase his energy level. He's not able to move around very much. He had hoped to get his garden planted, but even if he did, its likely he wouldn't live to harvest anything in it.”

“You think Sarge might think that the parents are going to hell now?”

“Or publicly retract some of the accusations he posted here?

Nahhh…”

“Speaking of bearing false witness - let me repost one of my posts.

=================
Speaking of straw man lee, please name one time I said he should be investigated for abuse. What day/time did I say that?

In fact, what I did say was "I don't think he's accused of committing crimes." Abuse is a crime, so why would I have said that?

The only thing I said was he was accused of neglect - and I never said he wasn't investigated for it.
sarge
5:04:27 PM
3/24/05
================

Of course, I received no reply to this.

My argument was about adultry, not abuse.

Apology accepted Bison/VioLiN.”

“and the adultry didn't change a thing either. well except in your mind...you lose sarge”

“you don't win or lose arguments about opinions. You can say he's been voted off the thread maybe.”

“I have no desire to read back through the more than 1,000 posts on this thread. If I've mixed up you with someone else sarge, I apologize.”

“ViOlIn, you should shine Sarge's combat boots for that.”

“I'll shine them myself, thank you. If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. If I ever want to mischaracterize anybody, I'll call on him then. Apology accepted.”

“Apology accepted for what Sarge?

I never accused you of saying anything about the abuse.

I'm simply contrasting your assertion that the Husband should not have been making decisions for Terri because he was taking up with another woman vs. your view that the parents should have been making those decisions when clearly they have moral issues of their own.
last edited: 4/18/05 12:07:44 PM”

“Yeah ..... that's the ticket.”

“Holy #&%!$!!!!

Will this ever stop?”

“Smiley, sorry to hear about your uncle. :-(

Thinkbubelz' boss had some kind of intestinal problems (I think from Pancreatic or intestinal cancer when he was younger.) for about 6 months, he couldn't eat or even drink anything during the day-- he would go home every night and have an IV bag of nutrients... Very sad.... Can you imagine being conscious, walking around, and "normal" in every aspect of your life, but not being able to eat or drink ANYTHING because of how sick it would make you?

He ended up getting an experimental intestinal transplant. Lucky for him, though, not long after he had the intestinal transplant, he was able to go back to eating solid foods again... We laughed at him (in a good way), when he came back to the office not long after his operation--he was from Philly, and got a Philly steak & cheese sandwich for lunch. It was incredible to see him actually able to eat something after being tethered to an IV bag for so many months.

But eventually, the edema in his legs and the medications wore him down and he passed away. Thinkbubelz said it was very hard to see him at work and slowly dying over the last 2 years of his life....
last edited: 4/19/05 11:17:17 AM”

“I'm with chili!!!!!

When will this crap drop??

I wonder just how much moolah Pat Robberson made off Terri?

The cash flow spiked pretty good for a while.”

“Treebeard, have you no shame?”

“hey, can you blame her?”

“I'm tryin' to blame you....hahahahahahaha!!!”

“...but, it's pertinent news. So, FYI, folks!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html
last edited: 6/15/05 11:33:51 AM”

“Thank you Tree.”

“That coroner is obviously not a member of the 'culture of life'.”

“so it was not murder after all.

boy this will tick off a lot of people!
let the flame wars begin.”

“finally may she rest in peace”

“The Repubs need another Elian Gonzalez to trumpet.

I wish Donato Dalrymple the best of luck if he is trolling for survivors.”

““so it was not murder after all.

boy this will tick off a lot of people!
let the flame wars begin.”
mapleleaf
12:53:16 PM
6/15/05
ignore this user

I'll start

”

“ewker, she was at peace when the plug was pulled

no more wires, poking and prding”

“Maybe the televangelists can be sued and put out of business for slandering M. Shiavo.

That's how the Southern Poverty Law Center has nailed various chapters of the KKK.”

“ewker, she was at peace when the plug was pulled

no more wires, poking and prding”
mapleleaf
11:57:03 AM


Of course, morphine has that numbing effect.
last edited: 6/15/05 12:01:15 PM”

“I'll say what I said before she died.

How in the heck are you going to see signs of abuse 15 years later?

Even 1 year later most signs of a knock to the head are non-existent.

Get real people.”

“sarge, we are real =)”

“"Even 1 year later most signs of a knock to the head are non-existent."

Ask the coroner.
He or she is a professional.”

“Ask the coroner.
He or she is a professional.

Ask somebody with common sense. A coroner is a vet who failed their license. OJ Simpson was a professional, doesn't mean he didn't kill his wife.”

“She dehydrated to death....although some might say she was brain dead already. Even the worst murderous criminals don't have to die this way. Something is wrong with our system/laws.....”

“Stan, perhaps this country should reconsider the issue of euthenasia? is that what you are proposing?”

“Who's going hiking this weekend and where are you going?”

“I am! And I'm bringing Dr. Kevorkian!”

“Tree the troll LOL !!”