The Terri Schiavo Thread

“If you're addressing me tilt, that's about right, but the adultry wasn't just recent. He already has 2 children via his adultrous relationship.

On another note, I came across this which was interesting: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1313774/posts”

“Sarge, if you had to spend every night in a hospital bed, couldnt hardly move, couldnt talk, couldnt eat on your own.....would you want to live???

From reading that article you just posted, it seems even more apparent to me how she feels. Can you imagine having your family come and visit for oh, a few hours or so, and then spending the rest of your time alone? Of course she got excited and happy when they came. But it also stated how sad she looked when everyone left. That is probably the majority of her day.”

“sarge - you keep bringing up this cheating thing - did he cheat while she was conscious? How do you know? Once one's spouse is no longer responsive how long should one avoid intimate contact? I don't know about you but I am not selfish enough to want someone to stay single if I am not able to provide the intimacy we all crave. That doesn't mean that he doesn't love her, love her memory, want her wishes carried out etc.”

“yeah - that's true love pepperDog

Here's the deal. With thinking like that, the concept of marriage is out the window. I'm not naive enough to think that "civilization" hasn't dropped to that level.

Til death do us part ... or until you stop putting out, whichever comes first.

ps - I assume you're kidding about the "was she conscious while he was cheating on her" thing. You have to be kidding with that one.
last edited: 3/18/05 7:50:42 PM”

“embear - I am not arguing whether or not she should have the right to live.”

“ps - I assume you're kidding about the "was she conscious while he was cheating on her" thing. You have to be kidding with that one.

No, Sarge...I am sure she was not kidding but I am pretty sure she was looking at it from a human perspective at the age he is/was.

And on that note....

Til death do us part ... or until you stop putting out, whichever comes first.

I'm pretty sure you understood your own statement regardless of hers...

She "stopped putting out", as you stated, in 1986. It is 2005.

Although I understand your "strong" feelings of infedelity, in this case, because none of us have "been there". I don't entertain it like you wish. I'm sorry. It is a case of Catch 22. For me, anyways. I feel for them BOTH.”

“Apparently its not a painful or suffering death...

From Fox News
Dr. Sean Morrison, a professor of geriatric and internal medicine at Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in New York, said that while coma patients recover, patients in a persistent vegetative state do not.

He also said it was wrong to characterize Schiavo's death as starvation.

"What happens is she loses fluid from her body, she enters a peaceful coma and she gradually passes away, very gently and very peacefully," he said.

I can tell you this...if any damn Republican or Democrat Politicians keep me alive and living on tubes against my wishes, I'll make their lives a living Hell from the other side ;-)

Complete story
last edited: 3/18/05 10:50:42 PM”

“Thats it....
I ain't ever getting married.

If my wife's k%ch fall off, how could I leave her. She'd need me. And sure I'd need her, but I'd need more>>> than her.

I am however looking...
...for a woman who cooks well often and can sign a nuptual that would allow me to go backpacking with another woman if she could no longer pack with me.
(you'd may want to read the fine print about the missing K%ch too)”

“It's amazing to me what Sarge apparently considers "marriage" and "life".”

“This disgusting, but it shouldn't be suprising...

ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the "pro-life base will be excited," and that it is a "great political issue — this is a tough issue Democrats."

They don't give a damn about her, all they care about is politics.

Complete story”

“First off, I think she's dead.

I agree with the "brain activity" definition of life. The conception to major organ failure definition wouldn't allow for organ donation. So, since we will NEVER know when the soul leaves the body, society should choose brain activity as the definition because it results in the greatest good.

BTW, religions can disagree philosophically with this. But they should not interfere with the greatest societal good. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

And, politically, this helps the Democrats. I think it's a pretty macabre thing that the Congress is doing right now. Since the woman is dead, they aren't doing her a disservice. They are twisting the former husband around terribly.

I think I'll cut my foot off now, set up a feeding tube and try to get it voting rights.”

“I don't know about this, I have seen video of Terri responding to her parents. Not a "normal" response, but she certainly appeared to have a conscious reaction to their presence. It seems odd that the court is committed to her death, when her parents have offered to care for and support her, and her husband has been offered money to back off of his legal interest in the case. I saw the husband on TV this morning, and his appeal for her dignity seemed insincere. Maybe I am just being too cynical.”

“HPM - thanks for a very informative link. The blogger definitely backs up everything he says.

For me, it is terribly sad. I can't fault the parents for hjoping for a miracle. I can't fault the husband - who obviously took great care of her and was embraced by his inlaws after the heart attack. I'd be interested to know when he got involved with another woman - I think there comes a point when it is foolish to wait.

The most telling thing for me in the blog is as follows:

"As time passed, her brain further deteriorated -- to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. Doctors hired by Terri's husband say the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have. An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions. Doctors hired by Terri's parents did not dispute the physical damage done to Terri, but they claim there are new therapies that could improve her condition. In two separate trials, the trial court found such claims of potential improvement to be without merit."”

“Omaha, from what I saw, the court looked extensively into the tapes and concluded she wasn't recognizing particular people. You don't need to have much brain left to do visual tracking.

To me, there is something very odd about all the energy people are putting into "defending" her. Its a very odd form of superstition.

Whatever happened to "let go and let God?"”

“this just in on her case:

Congress Announces Deal in Schiavo Case

18 minutes ago Politics - U. S. Congress


By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Congressional leaders hoped a deal reached Saturday would clear the way for a brain-damaged woman to resume being fed while a federal court reviews the right-to-die battle between her parents and her husband.

"We think we have found a solution" to the Terri Schiavo case, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said at a Capitol Hill news conference.


"I'm pleased to announce that House and Senate Republican leadership have reached an agreement on a legislative solution," Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee said a few hours later at the start of a brief Senate session.


"Under the legisltion we sill soon consider Terry Schiavo will have another chance," said Frist.


"We are confident this compromise addresses everyone's concerns, we are confident it will provide Mrs. Schiavo a clear and appropriate avenue for appeal in federal court, and most importantly, we are confident this compromise will restore nutrition and hydration to Mrs. Schiavo as long as that appeal endures," DeLay said.


Final approval was hoped for Sunday when the House planned to meet in a special session, he said.


President Bush was expected to sign the bill as soon as it gets to him.

A White House spokesman, Jeanie Mamo, said the president, who was at his Texas ranch "was supportive of the efforts by congressional leaders. We remain in contact with Congress and the president is being kept apprised."

The compromise was similar to a Senate bill passed Thursday that would let a federal court review the state judge's decision in the Schiavo case. House Republicans had favored broader legislation that applied similar cases that questioned the legality of withholding food or medical treatment from people who are incapacitated.


Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected Friday afternoon. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one to two weeks if no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted.


GOP Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee said the measure was "narrowly targeted" and did not set a precedent.


For a decade, a feud has raged between Schiavo's husband, Michael, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who have tried to oust Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.


Michael Schiavo says his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, saying she could get better and that their daughter has laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices.


On Friday, Republicans used their subpoena power to demand that Schiavo be brought before a congressional hearing, with lawmakers saying that removing the tube amounted to "barbarism."


The Florida judge presiding over the case rejected the request from House lawyers to delay the tube's removal. Late Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court, without comment, denied an emergency request from the House committee that issued the subpoenas to reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube while the committee filed appeals in the lower courts to have its subpoenas recognized.”

“Phaedrus - it's amazing to me what others consider those things as well ... To me wives aren't something you trade in when the one you got is defective, like Craftsman tools.”

“Sarge....what if she really did tell him before this situation that she didn't want to be kept alive like this? Should he follower her wishes?

It seems that if he was only interested in himself it would have been much easier to take the money and run.

You seem to be judging him rather harshly.

Again...what if this is what she told him she would want?

If something like this happens to me I can only hope my wife has the courage to follow my wishes....and me hers.
last edited: 3/19/05 8:07:12 PM”

“If she said that, then they should follow through. But HE should not be determining that in this case.

I am judging him not by any actions I am unaware of. In other words, I'm not assuming anything he has said has been a lie.

If judging somebody for cheating on their spouse is "harsh", then so be it. I'm a harsh judge. There was a time in this country where that was just plain common sense. I know, standards have been lowered. It's funny how "progressives" tend to gravitate toward this type of change, as if it is somehow for the better. I view it as barbaric and not "progressive" at all. I don't disagree with your other statements on that post. This is simply about that THIS particular man should not be given the rights of a spouse when it comes to THIS particular woman. His actions are not that of a spouse.YES, I'm being judgemental. Sue me. He's CHEATING ON HER. Oh, and if I ever cheat on MY wife, even if she's not all together there, please, by all means, judge me and knock some sense back into me. I made a vow to her and to God.
last edited: 3/19/05 8:55:31 PM”

“People make mistakes and do foolish things. To me, the biggest sin of all is not to learn from your mistakes.

I have also learned that there are two sides to every story, until I hear both sides I am hardly in a position to judge anyone.

This man is also being given this right by the court, who has heard, I suspect, much more of these accusations then you. They have deemed it right.

Not to pry, but how long have you been married?”

“mtnsteve - What makes you think he has learned from his mistake? Just because people in general do foolish things does not make it right. You could excuse anything with your logic. If we took that approach to things, we'd never rebuke any actions at all.

I am completely aware that there are 2 sides to every story. I lost a friend because he only heard "the other" side to a story and wouldn't hear mine. I originally brought this thread back to life because I was curious if anybody knew how he could be excused for this. I have heard NO argument (on here, or other sites) that explain that he acted as a husband should while cheating on her and having TWO children with another woman. If I hear what I consider a good reason, I'll gladly change my mind about this. Until then, this is what I believe.

This isn't about judging him. I don't give a crap about judging this guy. This guy should not be making this kind of decision for this woman. Period. I do not care about his guilt, his punishment, his conscience, any of that - I only contend that he has not acted as a husband and therefore should not be determining that she should DIE. We're not talking about who gets the cat here.

The length of time I have been married is completely irrelevant to this discussion. You're either setting me up for an ad hominem attack or you are going to ask me out. Either way, it's irrelevant, and the answer is "no". But thank you, nonetheless.”

“I don't know if he has learned from his mistake, my comment was directed at people in general.

I've been married over 36 years and proud of it. Sorry if my question caused such concern.”

“not a concern - just completely irrelevant”

““If she said that, then they should follow through. But HE should not be determining that in this case.


Sarge, I was just thinking about what you said here and a little red flag went up in my head, so let me throw it out to you. You say he shouldn't be the one to carry this out. I am trying to picture this conversation as it comes up in the lives of a married couple their age (young, I assume, being that it was that many years ago). When you are that age, would you think of your parents as the ones you would share these wishes with? Or would it be your spouse? It's not carved in stone, but odds are that the children would outlive the parents and this type of thing would be something that would be more likely to be a matter that a husband and wife would take up, rather than a child and his/her parents. Just a thought...
last edited: 3/19/05 10:23:08 PM”

“Treebeard - Under a circumstance where he was acting as a husband, I would completely agree with you. Either you completely missed my point or you completely ignored it. This is not about whether husbands versus parents, in general, should make the decision. If you're at a loss, just read a couple of my (too) many posts on here so I don't have to repeat myself myself.”

“I'm aware of the crux of your argument (the alleged infidelity). Frankly, I am not in the position to judge that and I don't really think any of us are, being that there has been a lot of ambiguity on the truthfullness of the parents' allegations. So, I apologize for deliberately not looking at it that way and not figuring that into the equation. But, if indeed, the hypothetical that your statement took into account was true, then what I say may be relevant..”

“"ALLEGED?" That says it all ...

Treebeard - 2 kids by her. I don't think the parents opinion on the matter is even necessary. I'd say that's pretty good evidence. Maybe you would need to see a video of the conceptions for you to be convinced?”

“This gets back to what you and the others were going back and forth about concerning his past and the length of time this has been going on. I was just reacting to that one statement. Perhaps I shouldn't have pulled it out of context. My bad...”

“good night ... hope to catch you next Saturday on your show”

“Thanks, man! Take care...”

“i always thought that marrige was an equal partnership between two people. i can't imagine that this situation fits the description. do you think the phrase "till death do us part" means the death of the physical body or the brain?

it would be inhumane to keep a pet alive in that condition-most people would opt for quick and (relatively painless) euthinasia. how can we deny a person the same rights to die with dignity
last edited: 3/19/05 11:02:09 PM”

“whatever happened to Dr. Kavorkian?”

“amen helinka.
very well said”

“I haven't followed this at all. When did her husband have the affair. was it before or after she went into a coma. If it was after she went into a coma how long did he wait before it happened.
His affair doesn't even play into this. they are legally married and the say is his, not her parents.”

““If she said that, then they should follow through. But HE should not be determining that in this case." Sarge


Actually he wasn't trying to determine, he asked for an independent assessment of what was the right thing to do. Courts in FLA heard the case several times and backed that choice up.”

“pedxing - So if he wasn't determining this then they can ignore his wishes, right? - Wrong.

Ewker - They are legally married because she CANNOT divorce him. Would you stay married to your spouse if they had an affair and 2 kids while you were married? I doubt she would to. 99.9999999% of people would divorce.”

“Why do we have death certificates? We've got them because there has to be a legal determination of death. Insurance, inheritance, etc. depends on this.

The hundreds of people who died in the World Trade Center got death certificates. Is there a 0.00000000001% chance that one of the missing from the WTC decided on that very morning to head to South America and not tell any relatives? About as much chance as Schiavo has of returning to any functional life.

Should we NOT issue death certificates in the WTC case because this remote possibility exists? Should we NOT issue death certificates to soldiers who are MIA and presumed dead? There's always the possibility that those people might return.

According to the logic playing out right now, this guy has to wait 30 or 40 years to move on with his life and get confirmation of what is already apparent - she is dead. To be consistent, we should make the WTC families and MIA families wait for death certificates as well.

Next Heading...

PRO-LIFERS GET PLAYED

One of the political difficulties of being a Pro-Life Republican is that you don't actually want abortion to be banned. It would create a backlash. Let's call it the Buchanan rule. Look Pro-Life, but not TOO Pro-Life.

This issue is perfect. It is focused narrowly on one family with little impact on anything else. Republicans can prove they are "Pro-Life" without actually doing anything to end abortion or euthanasia on a large scale.

Pro-Lifers get their biscuit and the Republicans avoid backlash.

Finally, why exactly don't the voters of Florida get to decide their own affairs? Why should Washington decide a local issue like this? Oh, that's right, the government knows better how we should run our lives than we do.

Sorry for my forgetfulness.”

“reformed lurker - Do you think the government knows how to better spend your money than you?
last edited: 3/20/05 9:25:09 AM”

“"I doubt she would to. 99.9999999% of people would divorce.”

I thought so....you are rather young and you haven't been married very long, if at all.

I don't mean that as a criticism, just an observation. I know many couples that have lived through the pain a cheating spouse and moved on. In fact I can think of at least 6 married couples.

To be painfully honest I can add myself to that list. I was very young, stupid and working far from home. It devastated my wife and made me realize what I was about to lose. It took time, but she forgave me and I grew up. Our 37th wedding anniversary is coming up soon.

Life isn't about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them.

I would dare say that if 99.9999999% of those that have made this mistake did get divorced we would have very few married couples.”

“Looks like DeLay has found an issue to take the focus off his 'ethics problems'.”

“Sarge, I don't. That's why I oppose the $400 billion plus budget deficits being created by those people in Washington. They don't know how to spend our money and should stop.”

“But, Sarge, you apparently think it's okay for 535 millionaires to mess around with some poor schmuck in Florida because it mollifies the base?”

“Sarge, you didn't answer the question. When was the affair? If the affair was going on before her coma she had a chance to divorce him but she didn't. If the affair took place after the coma, how long was it after he went into the coma?

I hope this situtation never happens to you but if it does I hope you stay true to what you have said on here.”

“One other aspect of the Sarge marriage tangent...

I've been going through the marriage prep for Catholic marriage and it is very clear that cheating does in no way lessen the sacramental bond of marriage.

An instance of cheating in no way ends that lifetime commitment.

I am not conceding that the man cheated. The law will never know that. But even if he did at some point, so what? The marriage was still operable and he has the right as the husband to make decisions for his wife.”

“reformed lurker - Good. So you're for massive tax cuts?”

“reformed - I don't know what you're talking about with the 12:03:59 comment.

Also, does the marriage prep talk about the Bible at all? If it did, you would see that one man - one woman -- You would see that infidelity is a reason for divorce. What are they getting their lessons from?

re: conceding he cheated - Um, he admits it. What is there to concede?”

“Ewker - I didn't answer because it's irrelevant. How long after her coma he had the affair is irrelevant, whether it's 5 minutes, 5 months, or 5 years. Are you arguing there is a cut off time? If so, please tell us what that cut off time is and how you arrived at that. I'll tell you how I arrived at my cut off time. From the vows. Until death do us part.”

“mtnsteve - No offense, but you've been using nothing but straw man and ad hominem arguments since this discussion began. I'm not interested in responding to your allegations that I'm not qualified to discuss this.
last edited: 3/20/05 11:52:11 AM”

“sarge, its very revelant. Fact is you don't know. You are assuming it was going on way before she went into a coma. You even avoided the part where I said if the affair was going on before she went into a coma she had a chance for divorce then.

I applaud you if you are willing to stay with your wife and be faithful till she die's if you ever end up in that situation. But realistically you don't know how you will react to that. It is easy to sit back and say you will. Until you are put there you don't know.

wouldn't brain dead be till death do us part?


definition of death:

The act of dying; termination of life.
The state of being dead.
The cause of dying: Drugs were the death of him.
A manner of dying: a heroine's death.
often Death A personification of the destroyer of life, usually represented as a skeleton holding a scythe”

“sarge, its very revelant. Fact is you don't know. You are assuming it was going on way before she went into a coma.

* I don't know where you got that from. I have not for one second thought it was going on before her coma.

You even avoided the part where I said if the affair was going on before she went into a coma she had a chance for divorce then.

* I avoided it because there is no evidence that it happened. It has nothing to do with my pov.

I applaud you if you are willing to stay with your wife and be faithful till she die's if you ever end up in that situation. But realistically you don't know how you will react to that. It is easy to sit back and say you will. Until you are put there you don't know.

* That's truly pathetic. First of all, what I would do is irrelevant. Right and wrong is not defined by my actions. Maybe you want to disagree with that, in which case, worship service begins at my house Tuesdays at 5:00. It's your turn to bring a snack. Second of all, if I DID do that I would hope somebody would set me straight before I further humiliated myself, my wife, and my faith.

wouldn't brain dead be till death do us part?

* No. She is still alive, although she apparently does not meet with your approval for level of intelligence, which I am beginning to find increasingly ironic.”

“Sarg...

I'm not interested in responding to your allegations that I'm not qualified to discuss this.

When did I say you were not qualified to discuss this? You are putting words in my mouth.”