The Terri Schiavo Thread

“Sarge,

I would reiterate that, in official Catholic teaching, adultery is no justification for divorce.

Now, we can agree or disagree about whether this is moral or not. And we can agree or disagree about what the pastoral solution to an adulterous spouse is, but that's the official position.

Supporters of the feeding tube have made a big point about her Catholicism. According to official Catholicism, the husband is the decisionmaker in this case, adultery or no adultery.

It seems strange to me that someone who so strongly believes in the insoluble nature of marriage would think that adultery would end it.”

“maybe the word is indissoluble”

“sarge, I didn't know the woman did not put her wishes in print. That is a horse of a different color.

I also didn't realize she has been in a coma for so long. My husband told me this is an old story. I don't blame the husband for wanting to move on and date or get remarried since it's seems more than likely, she will never recover, but I still think he should have found a way to divorce her first. I'm sure there are men and women who are committed to institutions, because they are insane and their spouses can still divorce them. Staying married shows a committment to her on a certain level that he does not have anymore and he should have divorced her before dating.

Who should make the decision to keep her alive or not? I think if the parents can afford to keep her alive and want her cared for, then they should prevail. I don't know the financial end, but someone has to be responsible for her care unless it's the state if both the parents and husband are penniless at this point.

People find it hard to put a pet to sleep unless they are very certain the pet is in pain, and this woman's eyes are open and she responds or seems to respond to the mom, so how can a mom just have the plug pulled on her daughter? It may not serve any purpose to keep her alive, but maybe the mom still cannot let go of her daughter and let her die. I can't fault her for that.

I read an article earlier about a famous heart surgeon that saw a tape on the woman responding to visual stimulation, so I don't know if he is saying she is not brain dead? I don't think people want to consider what a surgeon says that did not see the woman in person.”

“reformed, cheating is no justification for divorce? I think it could be grounds for divorce and in some states if it's proven, the cheating spouse could be out a lot of money for doing so.

Yes, you can reconcile and rebound from it, maybe, but I still think it's grounds for divorce.”

“Actually, I don't know if this ties into the cheating scheme of things as grounds for divorce, but can't a person who cheated with your spouse be sued for alienation of affection or perhaps I'm using the wrong term.”

“lurker - I didn't bring religion into this except when talking about myself. Goat did.

ps- Actually, according to Roman Catholics, adultry is the sole reason for divorce.
last edited: 3/21/05 5:46:31 AM”

“Ewker - you did, but not because of any valid argument you made. Giving me permission to express my opinion is just conceited.”

“The video of this woman showing her responsive and semi-consious is literally many years old. It has been repeatedly shown on television recently simply to garner support for her parent's position. Her condition is now and has been for years described medically as a "persistant vegetative state". This means that what is left is basically the husk of what was once Terri. I actually think it doesn't make one bit of difference to Terri whether her physical body is left to starve or sustained by means of a feeding tube for the next 100 years. The portion of her brain that would respond to either has been non-functioning for years. In my opinion, "Terri has left the building".”

“It's been argued that she could regain some more cognitive abilities if she was allowed to get the proper therapy (which her adultrous husband will not allow her to receive).

Also, this is not many years old. This is from this weekend:

http://www.frc.org/DL/20-MAR-05__EF05C38_0003AAE3-2D4F-123E-84811014AC14F856.mp3

[link is currently not working as of the time I post this, but check back] I heard it last night and she was obviously aware of what her dad was saying to her.
last edited: 3/21/05 7:40:55 AM”

“If anyone is interested in the facts surrounding this case, just go here for unbiased information regarding Terri Schiavo's situation, as well as a time-line spelling out exactly what happend and when. It's been interesting to me how people allow emotion to cloud their judgement and sway their opinions. Not suprising though, it's an emotional situation I'm sure. I am not a proponent of one side or the other. However I do object to Congress attempting to assert authority where none exists. There is a reason for the different branches of goverment. I believe they should not be involved in passing laws or asserting authority for a single individual. Just my opinion.”

“You're right in that it is easier to decide this when you take the human element out of it.

Maybe we could somehow put the "facts" and timelines into a computer and let it decide if she should live or die.”

“That is exactly why the judicial branch of the government exists: to rule on cases like this based on law.”

“That was supposed to be sarcasm.”

“Bill of Attainder: http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/attainder.htm”

“Pop quiz:

What Texas Governor signed the Texas Futile Care Law in 1999? You know... the law that allows hospitals, not the families, to decide when to disconnect a patient from life support if they can no longer pay for their care.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3073295
last edited: 3/21/05 10:02:58 AM”

“If tort reform laws had been enacted years ago Micael Schiavo couldn't have sued for malpractice and therefore couldn't pay for the care his wife's body needs. In that case (supposedly anti big government) conservatives would have no problem removing her feeding tube?”

“conservatives are anti-big government

Republicans on the other hand ... that's a different story.

You shouldn't confuse the two.
last edited: 3/21/05 10:13:08 AM”

“Good point, Sarge.

The best government is that which governs least.

In this case, the federal government should let the family or local authorities decide.

Any conservatives left in Washington?”

“In seeing more and more about this story (can you NOT see more?), I'm falling in the hands off camp. The feds should leave it to the states.”

“The left tends to only want the federal government out of their affairs when it suits them. Consistency is key. They have no problem asking for my money though for their programs. When it comes to saving a tree - get the government involved and spend lots of money. When it comes to saving a human life, stay away.

Of course, they'd argue the trees cannot speak for themselves. Er ... uh ... um ...”

“I thought it was sort of funny this weekend. The two big stories was Shivo and Da Pope. I though, “Jeeze! Shivo looks to be in better shape than the Pope. Wonder why they gave him a tracheotomy in stead of letting him go off to his reward?”.”

“I think she's easier to understand.”

“Why are so-called conservatives like Tom DeLay ignoring the cases of Spiro Nikolouzos and Sun Hudson? http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3073295”

“What makes you think they're ignoring them?”

“It seems pretty obvious that his case didn't spur an emergency session of congress with a bill plopped on the president's desk, did it?”

“What Texas Governor signed the Texas Futile Care Law in 1999?”

“Did the emergency session and bill plopping take place 10 days before Terri's tube was removed?”

“No. So what? Are you suggesting that his case would have carried the same response in another ten days?”

“vioLIN. What fallacy is known as "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque"?”

“Treebird - No, because vioLIN sighted an old case which has since been resolved.”

“This wasn't even two weeks ago. I wasn't aware of the resolution. What conclusion did they come to?”

“Its pretty clear that Sarge is braindead . .that is, in a permanent vegatative state.


If we can just prove that his wife is having babies with another man . . . then we'll be alot closer to understanding why it is that he identifies so closely with Terri Schiavo.”

“lee - I really would appreciate if you would fill out your personal profile. Thanks in advance.”

“I LOVE the strategy memo circulating in the senate this weekend that explains the political opportunism angle.


the republicans acted, and shrub flew in from texas, because of the political opportunism of the mid-term elections. From their perspective they potneitally had a lot to loose by not picking up this fight.


Again. shrub is a puke.


It is all about politics. it has nothing to do with this poor woman.”

“Thanks. I know it's speculation, but I sincerely doubt that congress would have acted upon this case. This was strictly about funding and could have proven to be an embarassment for the medical field and for our broken system in general. The Schiavo case is a whole different ball game and the reasons that congress politicized this are a direct result of those differences...”

“speculating is fun to do - it's great for busting on the "other" side”

“True! Stovie does it to me all the time...”

“I speculate this thread has run it's course...”

“Yet Texas law still permits a hospital to remove people from life support when they can't pay.

The law was signed by then Governor Bush.

So was his flight back to Washington grandstanding on his part, or does he just support killing poor people?”

“No, just Texans.”

“You're right vioLIN. He just supports killing poor people. You make some great points. You know what? I hear that he used to shoot liberals tied to trees back on his ranch. I think it's true.

Why are you saying it like it's "killing poor people" when it's a case they didn't have to intercede in, but with Terri's case it's "letting her die".

Very selective wording there vioLIN.”

“1990 - Heart Attack
1992 - Husband stops therapy as 2 years of therapy has produced no results.

1995 - Other woman
1998 - Applied to allow her to die
2004 - Won case to remove feed tube.

Since Mr. Schiavo's petitioning the court to remove his wife's feeding tube, questions about the cause of Schiavo's collapse have been raised by Schiavo's family, and by Dr. Hammesfahr, a neurologist they hired to examine her in 2002.

So the family had no problem with Mr. Schiavo footing the bills 2000-2002 when Terri was receiving therapy.
No problem with Mr. Schiavo being the legal guardian (and footing the bills) from 2002 when they decided there was abuse until 2008.
For 8 years they were silent, but now they know what is right.

No signs that he was with the 'other' woman for the first 5 years, although women usually do not go live with someone without some cortship period. Lets say 3-4 years of celibacy, but lets also assume that after 2 years of no response to therapy and therapy discontinued, he had no hope of her recovery.

He does not sound to me like a person jumping from bed to bed. He was insulted with offers of money to turn her welfare and his responsibility over to others.
He is still stepping up to his responsibility for her when she has been unresponsive for 15 years.

Yes he does have a new partner, but does that mean he no longer loves Terri ? I do not see that.

I am just stating my opinion and certainly hoping that if something like this ever happens to me, that my wife and children will have the courage and perserverance of Mr. Schiavo to get me removed from the machines.
No they do not have to wait 8 years before they start, 2 months is plenty long enough.”

“Why didn't he ever divorce her? Did he not want to lose his right to pull the plug? Maybe he thought he would look bad by divorcing a person in his wife's state? You can't look any better by dating while your wife is in that condition, so he loses on that front.

I don't blame his for divorcing her if he did and starting over, but I would rather he do that then date while he is still married to her. To me, it's still not right.”

“Maybe he was thinking of what she would want, not what you would want.”

“Don't you think that it would have been so much easier for him to have walked away.
Say "give me the money, and do what you like with her".

He has taken by far the harder road in trying to do what he feels is best for her.
So far every judge that this case has come before has agreed with him after listening to the arguments.

How many spouses would take so much abuse for so long, reject the easy way out, to try and do what they feel their partner would want. Would your spouse still be fighting for you after you were in a vegetative state for 15 years?
That is longer than almost 50% of marriages.”

“From the St. Petersburg Times

"To make comments that Terri would want to live, how do they know?" Schiavo said of the members of Congress who want to keep his wife alive.

"Have they ever met her?" Schiavo said. "What color are her eyes? What's her middle name? What's her favorite color? They don't have any clue who Terri is. They should all be ashamed of themselves."

Schiavo said he was going to stay at his wife's side through the entire ordeal and said he wouldn't back down in his fight to have her wishes carried out.

"Terri died 15 years ago," Schiavo said, referring to the collapse and cardiac arrest that doctors say virtually destroyed her brain. "It's time for her to be with the Lord like she wanted to be."
last edited: 3/21/05 2:14:44 PM”

“V and I are on the same side

:-))”

“Believe me - I feel yucky too.”