The Terri Schiavo Thread

“Terri died 15 years ago," Schiavo said.

I don't know if I would consider someone who has shown any form of responsiveness to friends, family, noise, music, hot and cold conditions and is not on life support as dead or even in a "vegetative state".

A young woman named Kate Adamson painted a window of hope for Terri as she vibrantly shared her victorious testimony. Ten years ago, she too found herself trapped in an unresponsive body. After a double brainstem stroke, she was entirely paralyzed, unable to move, talk, or even blink. they told her husband to just, "let her go--such a life certainly would not be worth living". She was on life support, far more incapacitated than Terri who is not being maintained by artificial means. However, she had a husband who refused to let her die. He fought that she receive the best medical innovations of the day. Meanwhile, Kate struggled, trapped within her own body. Though labeled in a "vegetative state," she was instead entirely conscious, overhearing the many conversations concerning the termination of her life. She screamed silently from within, "I don't want to die". She too was being fed from a feeding tube. They said she wouldn't feel a thing as they excruciatingly cut and inserted the tube. She describes, "I felt every cut," and due to further complications, they at one point even removed the feeding tube, starving her for 8 days. While Michael Schiavo proposes starvation as a humane means for his wife Terri to die, Kate describes it as a terror that no one should have to endure.
last edited: 3/21/05 2:48:05 PM”

“Ouch !!
“V and I are on the same side

:-))”
manuka
3:16:32 PM
3/21/05
ignore this user

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“Believe me - I feel yucky too.”
vioLIN
3:20:09 PM
3/21/05
ignore this user
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I need to go home and have a drink.”

“I heard a report on NPR this morning that Terri responds to family members who come to visit and sheds tears when they leave. That does not sound like a vegetative state.

It might not be the state we might choose to be in, but it does seem to be a state of some awareness. She may be brain-damaged, but she apparently has feelings.

I'm beginning to think removing the tube is not right.”

“I don't know what to think with this anymore. One report seems to directly contradict the other as to her condition. And not by just a little bit. They go from one extreme to the other. One says she is hopeless and has been for 15 years. Another tells of emoting towards loved ones. You got me on this one.”

“The (sad)irony is that she suffered from an eating disorder, now they're trying to force feed her.”

“I all depends on your definition of showing responsiveness and vegetative state. One thing for sure she is her body is self functioning as her brain is still sustaining normal functions that would keep and individual alive. Were not taking about someone who's brain is scrambled and on a machine to ensure organs can be preserved for a donor. In addition, there have been individuals in worse conditions who have had miraculous recoveries and returned to a normal or somewhat normal life.”

“I have worked with some folks that are in about the same shape she is in. I couldn’t imagine not having them around. :(”

“She is not dead, but basically killed herself by not eating or throwing up or whatever she did. Some people do it with alcohol and excessive drinking. If you kill yourself, it's against the Catholic religion, but this is a sneaky way of doing it without it couting as killing yourself.

I think everyone has heard of the phrase, "drinking oneself to death".”

“My wife and I recently discussed writting up our living wills. Neither of us want to end up like Terri Schaivo. It is hard to believe the attention that this case has brought. I wish the money and effort that has been spent on this case could be spent on sick children who have a chance to recover. We are such a wasteful selfish society. They need to honor the wishes of the couple and let her pass.”

“I think instead of spending the money on sick children in general they should spend the money on sick children with really big eyes with blonde hair and ears that stick out a bit too much. Those people are the cutest, and certainly worth saving more than other people. Of course puppy dogs too, but that goes without saying. Terri had her shot at being worth saving, but she blew it once they started cutting her hair like that. I mean, really! Give me a break. At least run a comb through it. Pa-lease! Seriously, at least a kid has a chance of recovering and maybe contributing something to society someday. Who knows? Maybe they'll write the next great novel. Maybe they'll invent the perfect renewable fuel source. If nothing else, they sure are cute. I seriously doubt Terri will ever contribute enough to the community to be worth saving. The community comes first. How selfish of the family to put their daughter before the best interests of the community. I propose that the parents get their wish if they agree to contribute 50% greater output each to the community. That would justify saving Terri's life. Like bateauxdriver said, we are a wasteful society. There is no excuse for wasteful spending on somebody who has no hope of contributing to the greater common good. I shout out praises to her husband and his mistress and bastard children for fighting for her life to be terminated. Only when true selflessness such as theirs is learned by all will our flag be something we can be proud enough about to extend our right arm to as a sign of allegience. Only then will the common good be put above family selfishness.”

“I just watched a news program (ABC) that addressed the tapes we are seeing on TV.

It seems that we are being shown snippets from 4 hours of tape the family shot. A judge that watched all 4 hours said that he was convinced that she was not responding to the action around her. He said, for example, that the part where she watches a balloon or Micky Mouse (I cant remember which) was one of many many try's to get her to react. The only one shown is where she appears to follow it, not the other 15 attempts.”

“Sarge, I understand how you feel, although your bitter sarcasm directed at the people on the forum is a bit over the top. Who are we? Just a buncha geeks from around the country having a discussion about something that we are not involved in. I don't think those on either side of this issue are that cold-hearted. I think it touches something within all of us. I know it does for me. I am a bit haunted by the picture that makes it look as though she is being responsive to her family. Why? Because it brings me back to 1988. My father was in a state that gave a similar appearance. He was in a coma, they said. But, at times, he would lift his head as if trying to speak. Every time he did that, my heart would jump with that faint glimmer of hope that this would amount to something more positive than the last time he did it. He had had several heart attacks and a stroke within the 12 years he was sick and the last time he was rushed to the hospital, he went into this "almost vegetative" state, if you will. He stayed that way for 4 weeks. We almost lost him a few times and then they revived him. The last time his vitals were failing, my mom and I had to make the roughest decision of our lives. DNR. It was soon over.

I know there are a lot of medical differences here, and a lot of different circumstances. But the general sentiment is similar. I know for a fact that Dad didn't want to be like this. Who knows what, if anything, he was trying to say to us. Wow, sorry to go on like this, but my heart really goes out to ALL of that family. I truly hope that whatever decision is made, that it's for the best. I sense that we will never know for sure, though.
last edited: 3/21/05 8:49:56 PM”

“Take it for what it was. Sarcasm with a message. Nothing personal.
last edited: 3/21/05 8:55:13 PM”

“No problem, man. Guess I am just feeling a bit compassionate for the husband as well as the blood family and trying to express that a little. Nothing more, really...

It's gotta be real tough all the way around. And, I think Congress should not have politicized it. Just my 2 cents...
last edited: 3/21/05 8:57:37 PM”

“This national hoo-plah over a private family matter being ridden to death by religious right reminds me of............The Elian Gonzalez Affair.”

“MarkO, are you saying that they should hide Terri Shiavo in a closet, lol:)”

“Florida just b!tch slapped the parents.


Hopefully Atlanta will do the same.
last edited: 3/22/05 7:47:37 AM”

“http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp

Terri is usually described as being in a Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), and indeed Judge Greer ruled as a finding of fact that she is PVS; but this diagnosis and finding were arrived at in a way that has many neurologists expressing surprise and dismay.

I have spent the past ten days recruiting and interviewing neurologists who are willing to come forward and offer affidavits or declarations concerning new testing and examinations for Terri. In addition to the 15 neurologists’ affidavits Gibbs had in time to present in court, I have commitments from over 30 others who are willing to testify that Terri should have new and additional testing, and new examinations by unbiased neurologists. Almost 50 neurologists all say the same thing: Terri should be reevaluated, Terri should be reexamined, and there are grave doubts as to the accuracy of Terri’s diagnosis of PVS. All of these neurologists are board-certified; a number of them are fellows of the prestigious American Academy of Neurology; several are professors of neurology at major medical schools.

So how can Judge Greer ignore the opinions of so many qualified neurologists, some of whom are leaders in the field? The answer is that Michael Schiavo, his attorney George Felos, and Judge Greer already have the diagnosis they want.

Terri’s diagnosis was arrived at without the benefit of testing that most neurologists would consider standard for diagnosing PVS. One such test is MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). MRI is widely used today, even for ailments as simple as knee injuries — but Terri has never had one. Michael has repeatedly refused to consent to one. The neurologists I have spoken to have reacted with shock upon learning this fact. One such neurologist is Dr. Peter Morin. He is a researcher specializing in degenerative brain diseases, and has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Boston University.

In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.

There was a moment of dead silence.

“That’s criminal,” he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: “How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman’s life and death and there’s been no MRI or PET?” He drew a reasonable conclusion: “These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don’t want the information.””

“My personal opinion...Michael Schiavo is content to let his wife die because keeping her alive is inconvenient to him. I think the principals who are trying to kill Terri are behaving as George Lakoff described in his recent book: "People think in frames. If the facts do not fit a frame, the frame stays and the facts bounce off."”

“Doesn't sound like they have much precedent to mount a defense on, Lee. What they have hasn't stood up in quite a few courts so far. I'm guessing that, at best, they have an uphill battle in Atlanta...”

“Oryx, can your opinion explain why Michael Schiavo turned down a million dollars to relinquish custody.

He would have his freedom
He would have a million dollars
It would not be his problem any more

His decision just does not fit your theory.
If you were correct he would be happy to turn the problem over to others and collect the money, he didn't.”

“to use Oryx's own logic . . .


that doesn't fit his "frame"

People think in frames. If the facts do not fit a frame, the frame stays and the facts bounce off."”
Oryx
9:12:40 AM
3/22/05


oryx's frame is that Michael Shiavo wants his wife to die because it would be easier and more convinient for him.


The fact that Michael Shiavo has been offered millions to take the easy and convienient way out, by abandoning Terri and her wishes . . .

doesn't fit in Oryx's frame . . . and therefore he doesn't give it any thought.

it just bounces off.”

“Oryx, can your opinion explain why Michael Schiavo turned down a million dollars to relinquish custody.

Because he wants her dead. Or, because now, after all this time, he has been boxed into position by the picture he has painted of himself. He has to play it out to the end, now.

Consider his actions. There have been NO other doctors allowed to examine her for the last 10 years. When she WAS getting therapy her doctors and therapists said she was improving. Then her "husband" signs a "Do Not Resusitate" order and withholds all treatment for Terri 2 months after telling a courtroom full of people that he would never abandon his wife and he wanted to take care of her and try to get her better. Since that time he has not even let her teeth be brushed so she has had 5 teeth removed because of rotting. He withholds antibiotics for various female infections that she sometimes gets. All of this while he is banging some skank and having kids with her.

The relevant facts are: she received a small amount of therapy right after the initial event. But the husband refused to spend one single cent on therapy as soon as the settlement checks were cut in 1992. Indeed, he spent much of the settlement money on lawyers trying to get her killed off!

And the husband only started "remembering" her "wishes" 8 years after the event. He's actually refused such obvious confirming tests such as PET and MRI, even though the PVS misdiagnosis rate is astronomical.

He's a murderous scumbag, period.”

“See my note above.


Think about the rather narrow frame that YOU are approaching this from.



(PS: chances are you won't be able to recognize that you are as guilty of frame thinking)”

“oryx's frame is that Michael Shiavo wants his wife to die because it would be easier and more convinient for him.


There are way too many questions, way too many missing impartial tests, too many conflicts of interest in the husband and in the right-to-die activist doctor and lawyer. Before you kill someone off, you need more facts and impartiality, and fewer questions.

Why no PET or MRI to confirm this? If you were her legal guardian, wouldn't you want the standard confirming test?”

“See my note above.

Well, I just showed your "note above" doesn't mean much in the larger context.”

“He was framed!”

“There are serious issues about the treatment he refused her, his adulterous affair, and his unwillingness to allow a definitive diagnosis of her condition.

And chances are, the liberals will dodge answering them.”

““There are serious issues about the treatment he refused her, his adulterous affair, and his unwillingness to allow a definitive diagnosis of her condition."

And this is our business how? Would these things not be between him and her, and him, her, and the doctor? Do we really NEED the gubmint getting in matters such as these? I want to see this lady live but not at the cost of state rights.”

“And this is our business how?

Obviously as a society, we have a vested interest in making sure that people like Terri who are incapacitated get the treatment they need and the diagnosis they need - before we allow them to be killed. The government is specifically charged to protect people like this. But in this case, Michael hasn't cared for his wife, has cheated on her, and has disallowed proper diagnosis. Are you truly comfortable with pulling the plug in those circumstances?”

“My wife and I talked about this last night and all the press that has been surrounding this historical event. I have not taken the time to read any of the posts of this thread, and seeing some of the people posting here, I don't thing I want to.

I can say that I would never want to be in this situation. Both my wife and I have made it clear to our parents and close family that if this were to ever happen to us, that it is our wish to pull the plug. Of course, if this ever happens, a parent can fight against the wishes of the spouse as is happening here.

Is there a wrong or a right here? Yes and No. Years ago, a friend passed away in an automobile accident. His driver's license indicated that he wished to be an organ donor. His close friends and some of his family knew this as well. Before several of his organs could be used to help save the lives of other people, his father refused to allow it to happen.

No piece of paper or signature will ever allow you the right to a chooice like this.”

“Also, Terri Schiavo never asked for this. She has signed no form. She has not made a clear oral statement on the subject. The only source of information we have concerning her intentions are coming from a guy who is currently living with another woman, had a few kids with that woman, and has refused to allow even normative care for his wife. Yet in the face of all of that, people eager to kill Terri Schiavo still insist on regarding this as a standard "we should all die with dignity" case. It isn't.”

“Adulterous affair - when his wife has been a vegetable for 5 years ? a little inflexible there Oryx.

Or do you think he should still have been making conjugal visits to the hospital with a tube of K-Y, because Terri is responsive ??
Are you identifying with Buck from the opening scene of "Kill Bill" ? but in a family setting.

Maybe you are living in the Walgreens Ad where everything is just perfect.

As for treatment - the definition of stupid is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Terri received treatment for two years with no improvement, but that was 13 years ago, what has changed ?? nothing except time. The treatment was stopped 3 years before this 'other' woman.

Where was the Big brother government 13 years ago ? or even if you want to blame her condition on Clinton, why did Bush allow the entire 4 years of his first period in office expire without 'helping' Terri.”

“You're dodging the main issues, just like I predicted, manuka.

Why the defensiveness and resistance to some pretty standard tests? Why not entertain an MRI? Why not entertain a doctor doing a, say, month-long examination? As has been pointed out, it's been 15 years. I ask rather reasonably, what's another month if it would likely settle this argument, especially if you're so sure of your convictions? Has life really become that cheap to liberals?”

“Oh, I love this... Oryx (and others), this has been going on for over 10 years now and you jump in and judge this guy! Eveyone has an opinion about whether she should live or die now--Jump on the bandwagon! Have you seen her MRI, her brain scans, talked to her doctors, etc? And you think Congress is some medical expert? You portend to know what is going on in Mr. Schiavo's head and his intentions. No one has a clue to what's really going on with her and her family--it's all innuendo and conjecture in the press and tabloids and you guys don't know squat. The republicans are propping this poor woman up to pander to the Religious Right. It's pathetic!”

“"Obviously as a society, we have a vested interest in making sure that people like Terri who are incapacitated get the treatment they need and the diagnosis they need - before we allow them to be killed."

What of right to privacy? A woman can go out and get an abortion with complete discretion but we need the government poking it's nose in our personal health? Not only this does this type of thing not undermine the sanctity of marriage? A spouse would loose all their rights in making decisions in their wife or husband's care. When dealing with things like this we have to look a bit further down the road and see how else this could effect our rights.”

“hey bud ---

Step out of your, rather rigid FRAME . . and step into Terri Schiavo's.

Who????


Terri Schiavo. That's who.


Picture yourself . .(not on a boat on ariver with pastecene porters and looking glasss . . )


Picture yourself lying there for 15 years while folks squabbled over your fate.


Your parents win. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!



Now picture yourself lying there for the next 30 years. YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY!!! Yippeeeeeee!

Don't picture the bedsores . .they're kind of gross. And they smell like rotting flesh (well . .they ARE rotting flesh after all).


Just picture laying there . . .for 30 more years.


Thanks Mom. thanks Dad.


Way to assuage your own catholic guilt.



Terri who?????”

“Have you seen her MRI,

Hey genius, SHE NEVER GOT THE DEFINITIVE TEST!!! Her diagnosis came from Ronald Cranford's propensity to see PVS wherever he goes (even in a patient who "could operate and maneuver an ordinary wheelchair with his left hand and foot, and an electric wheelchair with a joystick,"), from an inadequate test.”

“Step out of your, rather rigid FRAME . . and step into Terri Schiavo's.

We don't know what Terri wants - THAT'S THE POINT. Considering Michaels colored history in this, his claim about her wishes simply cannot be trusted by any impartial observer.”

“What of right to privacy?

Sorry, that doesn't extend to murder.”

“Plugs are pulled on people every day, oryx. Are you going on Crusade for them too (or just grandstand on the Schiavo case)?
last edited: 3/22/05 9:17:14 AM”

“aero - Did you just equate capital punishment with euthanasia?”

“No”

“Were you talking about robots? Whose plugs are pulled in your reference?”

“I see. Apparently liberals don't have any response to the main issues I pointed out. Typical.

Oryx, right again!!!!”

“I think Aero may be talking about certain DNR situations like I described to you about my father last night, Sarge. Just guessing, so I'll let Aero confirm that...”

“This is a job for Donato Dalrymple!!!

Donato Dalrymple calls Elian Gonzalez his spiritual son. The Lauderhill man plans to play an ongoing role in the six year-old's life, even if the boy is returned to Cuba. After all, Dalrymple says, God selected him as a savior.
"God led me to him. God helped me take him out of the water, and it was God that chose me to fight Fidel Castro for this little boy," Dalrymple said recently, upon returning to his home after six days in Washington, D.C. "God has a plan for me and I love the kid. I know he has a father, but that doesn't mean that he can't have somebody else. There is a bond between me and Elian that I think Juan Miguel will understand."

Dalrymple regularly refers to himself as Elian's savior, rarely his rescuer. Heroic is another word he uses when describing how he plucked the boy from the sea on Thanksgiving morning and attempted to protect him from heavily armed federal agents the morning before Easter.

"It's the photograph of the century," he proudly boasts of the famed Associated Press picture of the INS agent threatening Dalrymple and Elian with an assault rifle. After the raid Dalrymple performed in the media circus, beginning with a tearful scolding of the nation on live TV: "America, what did you do to this boy?"”

“Yes, the plug is pulled on individuals everyday who are dependant on mechanical means for essential bodily (brain wave) functions. Not an individual who is no worse off than many living in a nursing home.
last edited: 3/22/05 9:51:38 AM”

“yawn...same old, same old...yawn”

““The sanctity of life overshadows the sanctity of marriage. I don’t know what transpired between Terri and her husband. All I know is Terri is alive…. Unless she has specifically written instructions in her hand, with her signature, I don’t care what her husband says.”-Tom DeLay, House Majority Leader”