Alcoholism

“I've been reading a rather long article about the study and treatment of alcoholism and addiction. To make a long study short, it suggests that many addicts and alcoholics are capable of moderate drinking and or drug use without complete relapse. To my limited knowlege of the facts, this flies in the face of conventional treatment wisdom, and casts a new light on drug treatment programs.

In the words of the author: ...many a former alcoholic believes that a single drink will send him on the short, slippery slope to alcoholic hell. And this may not, in fact, be the case.

He suggests that addiction may be a trait that people can naturally develop out of, but does not suggest that all dependencies go untreated. He actually suggest a limited amount of moderation training, implying that the behavior is at fault, and not the disease.

The thing that got me interested in this is the far-reaching alcohol paranoia that seems to pervade modern society. According to this practically everyone I know who touches alcohol, EVER, should be concerned about alcoholism. While I don't think of Abigail Van Buren as an expert on anything besides her own blather, she does seem to reflect the more popular conventional wisdom out there.

I'm interested in others' perspectives on this, especially those of you who have worked with drug dependencies or alcoholism, or have known someone who has struggled with it.”

“I suggest you consult your old ally, bacpac...”

“Yeah, as much as I rib the guy, I doubt he has a drinking problem. He doesn't seem the type.”

“It's all just part of creeping Prohibitionism, and the remains of the Temperance movement. There are a lot of nannies out there, and they all Want To Save You From Yourself.”

“With my expiriences with my XG. When she stopped drinking and she was dry, usually only for a brief period. One drink was just the begining of another end. If she had one, it had to be two, then three, and then she was outta control. AA meetings always seem to mention disease vs. addiction, this is where I seem to be a liuttle fuzzy. Is it really a Disease? I always sided toward addicition. You know, "once a alcoholic always and alcoholic." It is just a matter if they are dry or wet. The other thing that seems to go along with alcoholism is denial, manipulation and lying. It is very hard being on the opposite receiving end of this additction. So I would think NO to havibng just one.”

“Me neither. I drink, get drunk, fall down...no problem...”

“i think i've read that article, or one like it, Phaedrus. the one i read was by a person who was a diagnosed alcoholic, but was able to control themselves eventually. it was in this book called *Busted.* made sense to me!

and by the way, what is the definition of an alcoholic? isn't there some physical symptom that has to be present, like your liver is saturated, or something? i think i remember that from health class or something...always been foggy on the exact medical meaning.”

“I would say that anything can be possible. Each individual case has it's own characteristics. I would bet thought the odds are they will usually replapse fully then be able to stay a social drinker. all it usually takes is one of their "Triggers" to set off a total binge. IMO”

“I have no personal experience but my brother’s been sober for something like 15 years now. He’s convinced that if he so much as has a bite of food with alcohol in it he’d be back in the gutter the next day.

After battling to get it under control, why on Earth would anyone want to tempt fate and try limited drinking? Some personages have compulsive personalities.”

“i agree that some people do have compulsive personalities, for at least some of their lives. BUT i also think some people can grow out of it. in college, i drank so much that i blacked out (couldn't remember anything, did bizarre things) a good 2 or 3 times a week, for a couple years. i'm sure if i would have been diagnosed as an alcoholic then. however, now i never feel like drinking more than 1 or 2 drinks at a time...i can't remember the last time i was even drunk.

on the other hand, if someone feels that they can't have a drink without drinking all they can possibly get their hands on, then of course they shouldn't!”

“My wife was a complete lush in college. Same things as Lyra. Now, she can have a couple of drinks and there's no problem. She grew outta of it.”

“Wow, an alky if I've ever heard one!”

“lyra, that is...”

“It's those personages that have compulsive behavior will have the most temptation to go the whole way. I do believe a lot of these personages have a more deeper problem and use alcohol as an escape, that is just my personal experiences. If those persons (my XG) don't or are not willing to get those deeper problems resolved with in, they will always have the drinking problems. In her case even I think she is so far down the alcoholic path she will never find her way back to a normal life. alcoholism is very sad. Many folks are truly good people. that's the heartbreaker of it. I lost 4 years of my life dealing with it, would I try to help her again? YES....
Lyra,
You where just a party animal and then you grew up...lol”

“i was a party animal, but i also used to drink and especially do drugs by myself, LOL! L-O-S-E-R. ;-) i'm very lucky i grew out of my cravings!”

“Hmmm... I did plenty of binge drinking in college too but rarely drink now either. I was worried at the time that I was at least becoming an alcoholic.”

“Lyra, you replaced those cravings with new ones, hiking...etc :-)
Proud of ya babe!”

“hiking, human flesh...it's all good.”

“SO is the use of Alcohol the defining trait of the disease, or is it a disease that manifests itself in Alcohol?”

“I grew up around alcohol.
My dad even owned a bar for awhile. "Lucky Lewie's Horse House" We owned a lot of horses. LOL
I also did the college drinking too, I think it is a part of growing up. With a true alcoholic I believe, there are different reasons why they drink other then to just get drunk. I personally believe it is deep internal psychological reason, whatever it may be for that individual.”

“Monkey Junkie?”

“If your asking me, IMO..... The "disease" is the what ever is bothering the individual and the addiction is their cure. The "disease" could be an actual medical/physical disease, and the individual drinks to drown out the thoughts of having the disease. Or it can be a mental illness or a traumactic expirience that triggers the person to want to drink, hence drowning out their thoughts/sarrows. I know myself personally, when I have a bad day and things really suck!
Sometimes I may have a few beers and things seem better. I just don't or havn't yet, gone to the extent where I drink to a point of blacking out....4 beers does me in! LOL”

“Anyone remember the Johnny Carson show? Johnny used to rib Ed McMann for his drinking exploits. Later it came out that Carson was the one with the drinking problem, not McMann.

Sound familiar???”

“for myself, i would say that it would be that the disease manifests itself in alcohol, Phaedrus...mainly because alcohol is a legal and cheap drug. that was just the vehicle. it felt like i always had to feel better, or different, than i was feeling at the time...something was pushing me to get MORE alcohol, or MORE of anything that would make me feel different. "more, more, more"...that's what would run through my head. i don't know if that's consistent with alcoholism, though, or if what i am describing was my particular prob. my, didn't this day take a turn for the serious! LOL!”

“"something was pushing me to get MORE alcohol, or MORE of anything that would make me feel different. "more, more, more"...that's what would run through my head."


It's the fault of the Republicans, lyra.”

“LMAO!! that's just what i was thinking..."man, i sound greedy." ha!”

“Wasn't everybody like that in college?”

“I don't know much about alcoholism. I have a friend who drinks about 3 bottles of christian brothers every week (big bottles) I consider her an alcoholic, but she says otherwise. The girl can drink and you won't be able to tell she's drunk. Well, unless she starts repeating herself. (which happens once in a while)

Reading the Dear Abby column, it seams like I am wrong and she really isn't an alcoholic...her drinking doesnt' seam to be a problem because her husband drinks just as much as her. they have a great family life, kid is raised well. The kid is not realizing that the parents are drunk. (you really can't tell) Seams like a normal family.

Always thought if you drink everyday hardcore you're an alcoholic...but you have to understand...I don't drink, well unless I am with a larger group out backpacking or in NY. LOL”

“I had a drinking problem from my mid teens until a few years ago. I wasnt one of those people who shake uncontrollably until I get some liquor in me, I was a drink beer with the guys type. Problem was that I didnt want a buzz, I wanted to get drunk. And when I got drunk I was a pain in the ass half of the time. Many friends and drinking buddies expressed concern at one time or another. I knew there was a problem but as it was only seriously effecting my own life I let it ride. Until I got married and started a family.

I have been 100% alcohol free since before I got married. Not because I think that if I drink I will slip back down into the depths of alcoholism, but because I wont just stop at a few. It will fuel me and I will get drunk, and that side of me will not mix well with the husband and father side of me.

I think that it many cases this is the problem. A few drinks will not satisfy an alcoholic, and often an alcoholic is not all that fun to be around when they are drunk. Every "recovering" alcoholic has their reasons for going dry. Mine is that I have a huge responsibility to my wife and kids, financially, emotionally and spiritually, and I have no intention of showing them that side of me.

As much as I miss drinking with the bros, it's not worth the damage that I think it will do to my family. I am way too much of an ass when Im drunk, and drunk I will most definitely get.”

“Lyra,
i don't know in your case if this happened too, but in XG case, she had a network of safety nets. Her Mom, Dad, Brother, Kids, Me, My family, our Friends. When ever one safety net would fold she would turn to another. She would push everyone to the brink of destruction to get the "more more more" she desired. She has been doing this for 20+ years and I walked into it dumb as a door knob.
If you where at the point of "using" (could be anything from: money, booze, somewhere to live...bla bla bla) people for your addiction then I would say you had a problem.....
But hey your past it, so you have done the right thing.

God I will probably be an alcoholic myself now...

Here is another point:
There is medical evidence that alcoholism is hereditary, but is it the alcoholism or the illness that drives you to drink.

Example, My XG's 13yr old son, the poor kid has seen it all with his mom. He resents his mother for her drinking. He, himself is a basket case now. He went from a 95+ student to failing grades. He has many issues with they way his childhood has been due to his mothers episodes, (being hauled away in ambulances, being gone for a month at a time in a Detox unit, Not ever knowing his own Father due to his mom had a fling with a foriegn exchange guy in college while drinking...etc...) The kid is truamatized from all this. Now What will he be like in a few years when he try's a few drinks? When he starts thinking back to his childhood and hates his mom for the way things went. He will "statistically" probably start drinking heavy and before you know it he will be an alcoholic too. Very sad....”

“So from Gemini and C Bat's examples, it makes me think that behavior defines an alcohol problem, not necessarily the quantity of alcohol consumed or the frequency.”

“hmmm...i guess many people do act like that in college, although none of my friends were as bad as me. but the fact that lots of people do have at least one period in their lives of uncontrollable drinking might go to show that lots of people can "naturally develop out of it."”

“Yeah, that's the whole gist of the article. He sarts with a challenge of the assertion that treatment for alcoholism leads to better results than no treatment.”

“C bat,
Your a good man!!!
If you EVER find yourself leaning the WRONG way, talk to me bud, I will give a swift kick back in the RIGHT direction.

Same for you Lyra :-)

If you use the "safety nets" before the problem starts that is OK :-)”

“no, i never drove my family or friends to the brink of insanity (actually, i lived far away, so my family didn't know). i did fail out of school, though (oopsie). i would say the main reason i think it was a problem for me to act like that was because someone could have taken proverbial advantage of me, or if i had been able to get my grubby mits on all the drugs i that i wanted, i probably wouldn't be able to talk about it now at all! i wished then i had better connections, but now i'm glad i didn't, LOL!”

“This thread has been good to talk about, but has brought back a few bad memories....I need a drink!!! LOL j/k”

“Phaedrus,
I do think that it is mostly behavior that makes the "alcoholic". I personally know many people that are very capable of being excellent parents or what have you and be able to drink, and get drunk. However, the people you love that are close to you should be foremost, and anything that infringes on a healthy releationship in this regard is a problem.

Example:
Bill can maintain himself when drinking. His wife cannot, but she really enjoys to drink. For the sake of the health of their family unit the wife must quit drinking because of her drunken behavior. She cannot stay dry with Bill continuing to drink. Bill doesnt see why he should quit; after all, she is the one with the drinking problem. In my view, this puts Bill in the alcoholic bracket.

Drinking is fun and relaxing, but it should never compete with the health of valued relationships. If it does, there is a problem.”

“I'm going to go out and get drunk tonight because I'm having boyfriend problems - I better go back to the dating sucks thread - I think I'd rather have dating problems than drinking problems.”

“My take on the issue of moderate drinking for recovered/recovering alcoholics:

1) I believe it is possible for a former alcoholic to drink in moderation. However, I think its easier to maintain recovery by not drinkin at all - sobriety for a genuine alcoholic is tough enough as it is. It helps to draw a very clear line and the cleares line to draw is at no drinks.

2) Someone who has been a serious alcoholic and isn't willing to give up booze altoghether may not really be committed to recovery. Why is it so important that s/he'd risk relapse to drink.

3) Let's say I had a tormented, destructive, tempestuous affair with a woman and I really decided to break it off. I might be able to meet her in secret and make out with her on her couch without screwing her or even getting naked - but what's the percentage in it? Wy risk it? And what's with me that I find it so important to put myself in that position.

4) As Nietzsche says, "Life is not an argument - because a belief is necessary for life does not make it true." There may be things in the AA belief system that aren't true - but adopting the system does seem to help a lot of people stay sober.

5) I think the DSM-IV definition of alcohol dependence is a pretty good one. It sort of compines the physical/biological tolerance and dependence with a willingness to sacrifice many things, repeatedly on the altar of that addiction.”

“c bat,

100% agreed, I stopped drinking when the XG and I where togther to help her with her alcoholism.
Unfortunatly, it did not help.
She still drank, probably even more, due to she knew I would be in a good state to help her when she was hammered!”

“Ped, I think you're cheating. I don't think you read the article, believing that your years of study in the field would allow you to fake it. Well, let me tell you, bub, you ain't foolin no one!

Seriously, though, the study raises valid concerns about the method of treatment and the efficacy of programs like AA.

I certainly understand a modern practitioner of psychology recommending the standard abstinence method of treatment - especially in light of legal ramifications for wandering outside the norm in this field - but it does also make me wonder if this isn't a matter of institutionalized myth. I know I'm inferring a lot from one article/study, but the absolutes of intolerance toward alcohol and drugs makes me wonder about it on an intuitive level.”

“Phaedrus, I think a lot of it has to do with the difference between people who are really alcholics and people who have been convinced that they are alcoholics.

I dated a girl for a short time whose brother moved in with a guy who was a recovering alcohol. She said that this guy convinced her brother that he was an alcoholic too, and so he got into the 12 step program and all that. Even to the point of apologizing to her for stuff that he had done that she didn't think was all that big a deal. Unfortunately, I don't know the rest of the story on that one, but given the Prohibitionist psyche of sections of our society, I suspect there are a lot of people out there who don't really have a drinking problem, but have been told that they do. Those people are probably the "recovered alcoholics" who can successfully return to social drinking.

Some people simply refuse to believe that there is any such thing as a moderate level of consumption of alcohol.”

“As a side note, I assumed that one of the positive benefits from going dry was that I would get into the best shape ever. I married a woman who is a phenomenal cook. I weigh 15-20 lbs more now than I did as a beer drinker.”

“You make a good point, Bit, but the study goes into heroin addiction in the same manner, and submits numbers that make the "do it once, and you'll be hooked for life" dogma look pretty ridiculous.

I agree that part of the problem is the puritanical social view of drugs and alcohol, but I wonder whether the medical view feeds this, or the other way around.”

“Geeeeeez, I have crap loads of info. on this topic. I can tell you that my experience w/ Newergirl's father was that the "disease" is a problem "inside" (for lack of a better term) him and the "addiction" is the outside manifestation of that. He feels very low about himself and has a hard time feeling acceptable w/out drinking/drug use. For instance: from the very start of our relationship he could not be convinced that I thought he was good looking, funny, caring, perceptive, etc. He would constantly say that I had negative views of him. It's called projecting. He projected his bad feelings about himself on to me. No amount of my love could make him feel otherwise. He'd do this until we were in a fight and, ta-da, he had his reason to go drink/use. He'd do that until he felt "better." Then during the period of coming down or having a hang over or whatever, he'd feel worse than ever about himself and the choices he made that hurt him or me. This would then escalate his need to do more drugs/alcohol. Soon he'd be in the middle of a binge. Repeat cycle.

I agree w/ Ped that a defining characteristic of alcoholism or any addiction is the willingness to sacrifice dearly in order to use the drug. He'd constantly pawn everything he owned to get money to do more, he's lost many excellent jobs, his relationships w/ family and friends have taken enormous "hits," his relationship w/ me became utter hell (no exageration), his relationship w/Newergirl is often on the line, etc. I have literally watched him give up money for food and shelter in order to buy alcohol or drugs, and this was after not eating for a few days. Addicts are very willing to use anyone or anything in order to keep the addiction going, so they do not have to deal w/ the pain inside. Unfortunately, they are not evil people out to run over everyone they love, they are sick. This is where co-dependency comes in. I thought that I could somehow "love him sober." I could somehow fill that hole, relief that pain inside of him. I gave up ALL of myself to do that, until I came to a pt. where I was more dedicated to his well-being than my own. I had a dependency on him (like if he felt good about himself, I felt good about myself)and he had a dependency on his addictions. All very twisted, but Phaedrus, I think that complete recovery involves a VERY long period of total abstinence. One drink for Newergirl's dad is the drink that gets him drunk, so to speak. I think the same applies to my recovery from co-dependency. Every single day, I have to check whether or not I am devoted to his well-being or mine and Newergirl's. If I'm devoted to his, then there is a great possibility that he will manipulate that devotion in a way that serves the addiction. (Again, not because he does not geniunely love us and care for us, but the primary drive is to feed the addiction) I have to practice total abstinence from that sort of behavior. I believe the same is true for the addict.”

“One definition of alcoholism is that you are an alcoholic if your personality changes when you drink. Some people drink to get that personality change. But it does freak out family and friends when it happens.

I come from a family of alcoholics and very heavy drinkers. One person gets completely wasted on two or three drinks, but was getting wasted every day for many years. Others just drink several drinks every day, but don't show the effects much. I don't know if they are alcoholic or not. Their personalities don't really change much, and most have been able to not drink for long periods of time. It has made me careful of how much I drink. In college I drank a lot, but as an adult I have a couple of beers once a week and I'm happy. It's much better for my budget, and my weight.”

“I'm a drinker with a hiking problem.”

“Thanks for that information, Newgirl. I can definitely see your point of view on this, and respect your choices. In fact, given your situation, and what I understand of your child's father's problem, I agree with the steps you're taking.

I think my problem lies with alcoholism being so widely defined by mental healthcare workers in general, and treated as a disease in every instance.

The Robins group's research suggests a model of addiction as something other than a lifetime disease. The exploration of normal human development out of addiction is especially crucial today because of the rapid expansion of the application of the disease concept, not only to people with milder drinking problems, but—in treatment centers such as Hazelden and CompCare and others—to labeling and treating (including hospitalizing) those suffering from such diseases as "codependence" and addictions to sex, gambling, overeating, and shopping. This madness must be exposed for what it is.

Behavioral problems require a more complex and adjustive treatment, don't they? Labelling addiction or alcoholism a disease without levels or gradation seems to me to be flawed. Anything can be an addiction, it seems!

Also, more to the point, with the emphasis put on alcohol and drug-related behavior problems, I would think that a mental healthcare worker could easily be distracted from working on more damaging problems, or the root cause of the addiction.”

“This all reminds me of a science fiction story I read once where people who were exercising too hard were ticketed for endorphin abuse...

Stop the Nannies now!”

“Alcoholism, drug addiction and the root causes and treatments should not be generalized.

In my case there is history of severe alcoholism and drug addiction on both sides of the family. I saw and avoided the utter destructiveness of drug use but was ensnared by alcohol. But my case although probably similar to many others is not the general case. What worked for me was support from my wife and returning to practicing my religion. I successfully went cold turkey this way, and surprised many people who firmly believed that I would relapse at least a few times.

The only constant in defeating it is a strong desire to do so on the part of the addict. Without the desire to quit (and not because someone is telling you that you should) it will never happen.

Newgirl, your man has it in himself to quit. Everyone does. He just needs to have the overwhelming desire and resolve to do so. He needs to be willing to turn his back on it entirely. He needs to WANT to quit.”