lost hikers in maine??

“Hmmmm, I was also watching pretty closely as I was planning an overnight in the Bigelow Preserve. If I'd heard reports like that (2-4") I would've needed rescuing as well, cause I would've gone.”

“There were 3 groups that were lost or stranded this weekend in that area. Officials are reviewing each of the 3situations to see if they should be charged for their rescue. How they could have thought about going out without snowshoes is beyond me. Wouldn't you think they might know there could certainly be more snow than was expected?”

“"If I'd heard reports like that (2-4") I would've needed rescuing as well, cause I would've gone."
twigeater
07:02:38 AM


Two to four inches?

You poor thing >8^]”

“twigeater, how much snow did you end up getting? We got just under 2 feet here.”

“24" in my front yard.”

“It would seem to me that carrying snow shoes would be a common sense, "just in case" item if nothing else.

Your in Maine for God's sakes. Snow is predicted, maybe not much right there, but other places are predicted several inches. Did they really think the weatherman would get it that accurate?

Make em pay”

“latest story

couple of interesting comments in this article. I says that 8" was predicted. I'll give the ones that left on Friday some benefit of the doubt, but not the guys that went up on Saturday.”

“If they find the Evan's Notch group at fault, what effect will that have on high school outing clubs?”

“Did the school kids need rescuing?
Channel 7 showed a bite of the
group in single file.A shovel man up front creating a path.I'm sure
the shovel job was rotated. No one
had a tale of woe to tell.
Waiting out the storm an extra day
was common sense. I guess the concern was no comunicaton?”

“Did they "need" rescuing? I dunno, ask their parents.

Expenses were incurred because planes were used to locate them, not to mention the wardens and rangers and whatever else. There was talk of airlifting snowshoes to them. I didn't look for them on the news clip, so I can't say if that was done or not.”

“Hey, $h!t happens, somebody's gotta deal with it and who ya gonna call?

Public safety is a public service.
We all pay or it.
Let's not be pikers.”

“You're right that Public Safety is a public service and that is paid for by "all" of us. In Maine, Public Safety consists of the state police and state police don't rescue stranded/lost hikers.

The wardens work for IF&W and their salaries are funded by hunting and fishing licenses.
A rescue in BSP usually costs a minimum of $5,000 (if the copter goes out) and that is paid for by BSP user fees.

what's a piker? a fish like a pike?

o(=D”

“I'll bet it was the overreaction of a couple of the parents that drove the rescue. They should just charge the parents that demanded the search.
I always tell me wife not to panic for at least a day after my scheduled arrival time.”

“These kids were prepared for this and had trained for winter camping. Yes no snow shoes was sort of stupid. They had the gear to survive, and there was no reason to beleive that they were injured or in imediate danger.
I bet somebodies mom or dad had some influence with some local government and got this thing snowballing.”

“They definitely made some mistakes. First of all, it was obvious that there were bands of very different snow levels - you can't expect those to work out with pin point accuracy. If there is big snow forecast for someplace 50 miles away, you have to reckon there is a chance you will get it to. Secondly, these things always work out differently in the mountains.

If they had a back up plan in case of bad weather (shovels or whatever) they should have shared that plan with people who weren't on the trip.

I'm not in a position to judge how egregious the mistakes are. I've made my share of stupid mistakes on the trail and off. Still, my gut says that when you are dealing other people's kids you need to be extra careful to inform and prepare.”

“I'm not qualified to say if they were right, wrong, should be charged, whatever, but I can't imagine you really believe your last two posts LtHiker.

another story
"fine" is relative here...and to me, hungry translates to "out of food"

There are too many "what ifs" to have chanced waiting. Given the other rescues that went on this weekend, it appears the warden service was following SOP.

As part of their wilderness training, the group must have known if they missed their return time they would be searched for. That's the point of a return time isn't it?”

“Yeah I guess you are right about the return time Twig. If somebody had been able to communicate their situation it would have prevented all of this.”

“piker:
1. A cautious gambler.
2. A person regarded as petty or stingy.”

“I was just being wise, TomT.
;)”

“Ooooooo, burned >:^O


Some of these guys wouldn't rescue their own mother without makin' her pay!”

“LOL...

I think that part of the issue surrounding the "to pay or not to pay" argument is where the funding for the rescue comes from. Plus the risk to those who participate in the rescue.”

“btw, although I made a comment earlier regarding paying, I'm not really sure how I stand on that.”

“I believe those who participate in rescues do so because they love it or at least really like the work.

They volunteer for this kind of work knowing that things could go horribly wrong.

I'm sure you(twigeater) wouldn't make your mother pay, but I'm not sure about some of these tight-asses who post here. :^]”

“I think the "authorities" are doing the right thing in reviewing the circumstances of each situation to determine whether the hikers should be charged for their "rescues". It sounds like the larger group didn't need rescuing at all and would have made it out fine on their own. The other two smaller groups needed someone to come get them. I'm all for people paying for their own rescues, especially when they were stupid to begin with and made bad decisions or didn't have enough experience to cope with a given situation.

In the situations in ME, I'm not sure the people who left on Friday had a forecast that would give them anything to worry about. It's easy to armchair quarterback this thing and say "I would have at least carried snowshoes with me." I think the authorities will not charge any of the "rescued" people under the circumstances.

If I needed to be rescued from the backcountry, I would sure as he!! be willing to pay for it.”

“I guess it was a coed group. Tough
nuts if it turned into a tv survivor situation. Cannibalism
would involve eating the weaker sex.”

“Ooooo, I really shouldn't comment on that!”

“http://www.thewmurchannel.com/news/2689961/detail.html Heres a story bout the students and teachers that were found .It looks like they had almost hiked out anyway Streamweaver”

“In our case, we checked the weather Friday night (well, 5 PM) and it was 2-4 inches on several radio stations. We called to see about a hotel room for the night, but they wanted $79 and only 30 or so trails were open. We opted to save the cash for a better weekend. (If only we had known...)

On the way up Saturday morning, we left Biddeford in a half inch of snow and drove out of the snow on the way up. The radios were saying that the latest update was 6-12 inches on the coast, with the real likelyhood of a lot more. It wasn't until 9 or 10 AM that it started snowing on the mountain. We left around 3 or so in the afternoon, and there was only some 4 inches, we guessed on the mountain. Driving home it snowed all over and the farther south we went, the more snow we ran into.

If you had told me that the mountains would get some 3 1/2 feet, I would have asked if that was Buffalo's report you were giving me. Imagine my surprise to wake up and hear Sunday River and Sugarloaf both got over 3 1/2 feet of snow.

If I was planning Friday night based on the weather reports, I'd have gone anyways. Would I have brought snowshoes or skiis? Probably not. But now that this has happened, I would certainly consider it. Thing is, it was bare ground Friday up there. And you trying to tell me that I'll need snowshoes with only 2-4 inches forecast??

I gotta agree with Twigeater, the Saturday crowd is open to discussion, but the Friday crowd, well, I don't think the Friday crowd acted recklessly. If you wait for a perfect weather report, lack of bugs, the stars aligning, etc... you'd never hike in Maine.

I've been there. Several years ago, I was on the AT with ATTroll. He checked it out the previous weekend by klimbing up the south side of the mountain, and reported the snow was gone. (We were to learn more about this later.)We hiked up to a shelter at the north base of Bald Moxie for the night, early spring. In the morning, unforecasted wet heavy snow was coming down. I watched a loon feeding before we left. As we started our klimb up the north side of the mountain, towards our waitng car, the snow had not yet melted from the winter. We postholed 3 feet deep for some 4 miles. (My knees were shot for a week or so.) We did get out a day early at a road and cut our trip short. Dad, though, was worried, and glad to hear from us. Thing is, we had plenty of the right gear, food etc... No snow shoes or skiis, but we didn't think we would need them, and we did get ourselves out.

Apparently, this Friday group was an enthusiastic group with experienced group leaders. No one is assigned this, you pretty much have to sign up, kinda because you want to and head into it eyes wide open, as they say.”

“Just read the morning paper, last page of the first section. (Portland Press Herald)

Headline says 'Snow report came too late', approximately, SB took the paper to work. I'm shooting from memory of 10 minutes ago, and I'm suffering from CRS.....

Anyways, Thursday, when they were preparing, there was no snow forecast for the area. When they left, they were forecasting a storm watch of 3-6". In hiking boots, what is 3-6"? I'd say not too much. What good are snowshoes in 3-6"? Some, but how much? I know I wouldn't use my cross country skiis on that stuff, I'd grind thru the snow and scratch them all up.

The warden service has no overtime in the budget, instead the wardens are given comp time off. That is probably the driving factor for looking at billing them. The warden states they were well prepared, except for not taking snowshoes. When there is 30 inches of snow and you don't take snowshoes, you are unprepared. (I'm thinking they also didn't take an inflatable raft, just in case it was a bit warmer and there was a flood-TIC)

The warden also states that the lack of snowshoes, by itself, does not rise to the level of reckless or careless. The group had given relatives the itenerary, and when they didn't show, family members called and requested the search. If it was my son out there(first, THAT would be a miracle)I'd probably do the same, as well as go looking for him. Anyways, sounds as though they won't bill this group. Unexpected snow fall is what they are saying, and that is kinda what a rescue service is for, the unexpected.

Now, about the other two groups, one of which was airlifted out by helicopter, I'd like to read more about them....”

“Thanks monkeyboy for the usual lucid and thoughtful report.


When you are no longer able to swing that nine-pound hammer you should consider journalism.”

“vote here

monkeyboy, you need to find a new radio station, LOL.
People in my office think I'm a nut case for the things I do, and they knew I was headed out last weekend. Friday morning, one after the other, as they arrived at the office, they stopped by my cube and said "you aren't going are you, we're gonna get dumped on!" So that's where I get my weather info from, LOL.
Actually, I use weatherbug and compare it to the state's MEMA site.

I'm thinking the Friday group listened to the weather Thursday night and didn't check again Friday morning.

If they are charged, it will have an effect on the future of these high school programs. I think the warden service will take that into consideration.”

“Jihad Maine!!!”

“Yeah, I tell you, if we had known there would be that much snow, we definately would have gotten an on mountain hotel. We do need a better weather forecaster.”

“They must be on call firmens?
or vounteers? Probably trained in
cold weather and ice rescue?”

“I can't keep quiet about this....

I often ride down the road, and see homes in desparate need of repair. Open and broken doors and windows, dripping faucets on the outside, etc.... I don't just go fix them without confirming the owners want me too and are willing to pay for my serices. An argument could be made that with the broken window and the cold temps, that some one could catch their death of cold, so naturally one would expect me to go in and fix it, and of course send them a bill.

Okay, I know that is a little lame....

But think about it. Thes guys laid out no "Help" signs. Didn't they have a cell phone... I think there was no cell signal where they were... They were getting out on their own as seen by helicopter. If I remember right, they made no indication to the copter that they needed rescue, though they waved at it. (How's my memory on the facts???)

So now, you have a bunch of guys, voluntarily looking for these folks, on snowmobile in some cases. It can be said that it's a lot of fun to ride around the back country on snowmobile. I'm sure there was no shortage of folks volunteering to look for these hikers while they played on their snowmobiles, all the while hoping to be paid for doing so.

Already they have been confirmed as checking the weather reports and being well prepared, and actually working their own way out. Yes there is plenty of room for concern, but these folks weren't the idiots we so often read about. IMHO those idiots we read about are what caused the concern here. Cases like those make it hard to believe that this group was well enough prepared and actually working their own way out.

Then on the other hand, I look at how we fund this service, and recognize it as a vital service, mostly paid, I think through licensing of fishers and hunters?????

I don't know, I just don't know. I know I have been caught and had to work my way out, but I was properly prepared and would be pi$$ed if someone felt the need to rescue me in those conditions. But it's a judgement call.... I know my Dad was worried about me, but I contacted him as soon as practical after I was out.

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts on this....”

“Some one was responsible for activating rescue units. What did
they base thier judgement on?
Phone calls from concerned parents? Were you there Monkeyboy?”

“Comparing carpentry work to rescue services is lame indeed, monkeyboy. What if your child had been out there? Hind sight is 20/20 for sure, but who knew all those things? Imagine the uproar if they had waited and a child had died. Of course there were calls from concerned parents. The idea behind leaving an itinerary is so someone will know when you are late returning.

Perhaps in your mind you believe they got "caught" in the weather, but not in mine - I believe they knew and went out anyway.

If someone calls an ambulance for you and you didn't ask for it, you still have to pay the ambulance even if you think you didn't need it. The town is following their standard practice here. Who they should bill is the question - the warden service or the school?

And you really should go back and read the article and check your facts. I'm sure people had better things to do after that blizzard than struggle with bogged down snow machines (which isn't fun if you have ever done it) like take care of their own homes.”

“I don't know the particulars. I
saw a local news bite showing smiling happy students breaking a
trail to get back. I believe they
were thankful for the rescue effort.”

“I just read MBs post more thoroughly.

"I'm sure there was no shortage of folks volunteering to look for these hikers while they played on their snowmobiles, all the while hoping to be paid for doing so."


The bill in question reimburses the town only and does not pay the volunteer firemen for their time. The wardens are on the payroll, but if the warden service bills for services the wardens themselves don't see that money.”

“Also monkeyboy, I'd like to hear the details of those cases where you were caught and worked yourself out - how late were you getting back? At what point do you think your Dad should call the rescue?

I'm really curious about this, as SAR is part of a course I'm taking and I know what we're being told.”

“I was rambling a bit there this morning....

As far as billing for rescue goes, all day I thought about it. I'd still be pi$$ed if I had to pay for a rescue some one called in for me in the conditions I got caught in. I suspect I'd try to fight the bill, but in the end, I guess I'd pay it and be thankful some one was concerned about me. And to think about it, $1000.00 between all those folks involved would divy up a bit. So after much pondering today, that is actually a pretty cheap bill....

As far as the fun, or rather lack there of in that light fluffy snow, I have to agree that the rescuers probably had better things to do.

If it were my kids, and I knew they were adequately prepared (I'd make sure before they left), I'd go out personally to where their itenerary laid them out to be, probably notify a friend or family member and that I was hiking in, fully prepared, and that if they hadn't heard from me by___ then there is a problem, and help would likely be required.”

“This is a bit different than the subject case here. They are all a bit different, aren't they. ATTroll and I were hiking a piece of the AT from Monson to Caratunk. We had camped at the Bald Mountain Pond lean to. We were pretty well equipped, but no snow shoes or skiis. The previous week ATTroll had hiked up Pleasant Pond Mountain (South Side) and the trail was void of snow. So we were hot to get out there.

The first day, we hiked from Monson to Bald Mountain, making 4 Stream crossings where we were mid thigh deep in the early spring runoff. We rock hopped and actually placed a few rocks to avoid getting wet the 5th time.

We slept well, with our tents in the lean-to, as it had started raining. Overnite, it had turned to snow. Wet heavy snow. Totally unconcerned (No snow forecast for the area, we thought it would blow over soon), we got breakfast, packed up and headed up Bald Mountain (North side). We were soon to learn a valuable lesson here. Just because the south side is void of snow, does not mean the North side is. The snow is continung and blowing sideways. It's a blizzard out there. What was really fun was looking for the white blazes on the sides of the trees, when all this wet snow is getting plastered on the trunks. It was not uncommon for us to go a ways, look over our shoulders to find the blazes on the reverse side of the trees.

This being the AT, you could pretty much tell where the trail was by the tree clearings and branch trimmings, but not always. And the moose packed down some small parts of the trail. You had to pay attention to stay on the trail, but it was not awfully difficult.

As we continue up the mountain, the snow pack is getting deep, some 3 feet deep, on top of the blizzard around us. We started postholing, some 3 miles worth. ATTroll is not postholing as much as I am. My knees were killing me, and his are sore also. And we are making no time. My ex-wife had our itenerary, and she was fairly unconcerned when I go out there. Dad had a fairly good idea what part of the state I was in.

Dilema: We have on car in Monson, and one in Caratunk. And we are coming down Bald Mountain, no snow pack. The downhill is absolutely killing my knees now. We aren't due out til tomorrow. After crossing Joe's hole, there is a road.... or we could hike over Pleasant Pond Mountain, with an additional amount of postholing and more down hill. BTW, it's still snowing, cold, wet, and heavy. We decide to bag the trip, and head north towards the forks on the gravel road. At least it's level, mostly plowed, bare in some areas and melting as it lands. The snow is stopping now. I can barely walk my knees are aching.

We managed to catch a ride for a mile and a half or so. Then have to walk the rest of the way to the paved road. We take a break. My knees ached. I put out my thumb, and a pickup shortly takes us to our vehicle. Yes, we are thankful for the ride. We could have walked to the car, but.....

In retrospect, we may have walked more by bagging it, instead of going over the top of Pleasant Mountain. We got home late that night instead noon the next morning. I didn't talk to Dad til the next evening, and he was relieved to hear from me. I suspect he would have checked with my ex about me for making a call.

So, all in all, I wasn't late coming out, so less cause for alarm, but the sudden unexpected storm was a cause for concern. That and the unexpected conditions all make for a nice war story for me. If I had seen a rescue party looking for me, I'd have gladly taken a ride out, and I be pissed about paying for it, and finally, I'd just pay it.....

Nowadays, most of my friends and family know I go out well prepared, but I do remember a trip where we weren't sure of where we were headed to a cabin in the middle of the night, and no one had a tent.... So we did what a well equiped experienced group would do, turn back while we could.”

“I went back and reread the case. They were late coming out, and foul weather, a rescue is definately called for. Especially with a group of teens, even chaperoned.

I guess my contention to this whole idea is that they were well prepared, with experienced leaders, who kept it together and were working their way out. These weren't the hiker who klimbed Mt. Washington with a cell Phone and called for help when he got tired. That idiot deserves to be billed. This group, in my opinion, got caught, and were late. I think that is the intention of a rescue service. To rescue those, who are properly prepared, well led by experienced hikers, and still something goes wrong.

I still love you Twigeater, but I guess I'm gonna have to disagree with you about the weather reports for the area, as we were watching the reports, quite intently, in that area ourselves (you can check our situation in an earlier post on this thread). And maybe we need to check more radio stations than we did.

I'd love to hear more about this course you are taking. While we are drowning bloodworms, fill us in on what you are learning.”

“I love a good debate when it's something I'm interested in. :)

Yep, we do disagree about the weather reports monkeyboy and that's fine. However, disagreeing with me means I get to torture you - and I have a new movie that's perfect for that.

o(=D

Back to the debate...
You do realize the school is not being billed for the rescue itself, but for the services of the fire department of the town of Gilead. Which is the normal practice of the fire dept regardless of the situation. If they had been called by another town to fight a fire, they would send that town a bill.

Perhaps the fire dept should bill the warden service, as that's who called them out, rather than the school. Then the warden service could decide whether or not to pass the bill for both on to the school.

I also think it's a mistake for you personally to go out looking for your lost kids - you likely would be creating more problems for SAR.

There's some very informative posts from members of SAR on VFTT, you should check it out.”

“Hey MB and Twiggy - Did you notice that is was a 3 hour SAR.
Ring any bells? ;o)”

“Hmmm... I was unaware of the billing practices, like for fires etc... I guess I always assumed emergency services were free, although I am aware that ambulance services have been charging for at least the last 20 years....

Okay which purdy little mouth... err movie do you have for me this time!!!

3 hours!!! Noooooo!!!!!”

“I'm perusing VFTT, which threads are they posted on?”

“Emergency services free? on what planet? LOL...I know, you meant free to YOU...

And they are...(sort of) but I think you missed something in my post - TOWNS bill OTHER TOWNS for TOWN provided emergency services, they do not bill the individual. So if your house burns down and the fire dept comes, YOU won't get a bill. But say you live in the town of Vassalboro and the town of Windsor responds to your fire, Windsor would bill Vassalboro.
Ambulances are privately owned and bill the individual for their services.

I wonder if the bill in question was really to the town of Oxford Hills from the town of Gilead, but Oxford Hills gets more sympathy if it appears like it's a bill to the school.

monkeyboy, there's one thread on VFTT called "search and rescue" under general backcountry that is interesting. Or if you search on "rescue" you get a few threads.”

“One interesting sidenote...when hiking in colorado, one can purchase a hikers certificate...$10 dollars or so now for 5 yrs I think. This pays for the costs of SAR while it is in effect(1 & 5 yrs certificates back when I got mine).

I think that's a small price to pay for insurance if I ever needed it, don't you??”